X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail-ew0-f52.google.com ([209.85.215.52] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.11) with ESMTP id 4664073 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 04 Jan 2011 19:16:18 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.215.52; envelope-from=msteitle@gmail.com Received: by ewy23 with SMTP id 23so7264575ewy.25 for ; Tue, 04 Jan 2011 16:15:43 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:received:in-reply-to :references:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=V0aUGpXNdlGG57A5XRTU6GM4hpPoPw3mzCDYQAq+CuM=; b=DLtfsfJqiZC4Hwe5W9jGTgSGQslRdkEWdSL85uBXRGjt+5LY5vmQaxs8KWi31In9Vg mGz7CymnwMuR4ACjutZXXhw1OCq0014SaEDA8EBnWwgt9E5Vwo13oiDpiVB7J8DIruf1 SGWsipxwUInshiu+1iqoznibQpJsrYJc/6Y5w= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=Dxr/znqXbMZRE/mSK50tnH8JCVGhMhrSzJd+AeNexHkzGd/1fENovtZBllmTR4N/F5 ZX8D+3gK8cNnkad+1uLt2OEF+LNsku4+x4Eft0ozfrAFQyZSGnclucn1n2tzu7HDNUUy rco8g8h8zGyAUMsr4Z6YLtjAsV1wmssF7i21E= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.213.105.197 with SMTP id u5mr18684423ebo.36.1294186542735; Tue, 04 Jan 2011 16:15:42 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.213.33.206 with HTTP; Tue, 4 Jan 2011 16:15:42 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2011 18:15:42 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: GM Coil Comparison From: Mark Steitle To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=00151749f5e827200004990e4965 --00151749f5e827200004990e4965 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bobby, Without measuring, I'm not sure if I have enough space to mount six coils side by side in a single row. But that design might work if I can mount them in two rows, three on each side. Mark On Tue, Jan 4, 2011 at 5:25 PM, Bobby J. Hughes wrote: > Here's one idea. > > > http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/272465-Converted-95-S6-ignit= ion-to-GM-Delphi-D585-coils > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] *O= n > Behalf Of *Mark Steitle > *Sent:* Tuesday, January 04, 2011 2:53 PM > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: GM Coil Comparison > > Yesterday I ordered 6 new D585 coils for my 20B. It looks like they moun= t > differently than the D580 coils. Does anyone have any pictures they coul= d > share of how they mounted their D585 coils? > > FWIW, the old D580 coils have close to 200 hrs on them with no failures. = I > mounted them down low on the motor mount. The lack of vibration and heat > may account for their longevity. > > Mark S. > > On Mon, Jan 3, 2011 at 2:53 PM, Steven W. Boese wrote: > >> Kelly, >> >> >> >> My spark plug life has been the same with the stock 13B coils and the D5= 85 >> coils. I have had SAG with the D585 coils also. As I discussed at the >> Paducah fly in, SAG does not appear to be a spark plug misfire or failur= e to >> spark. The effect on EGT and coolant temperatures is the opposite for S= AG >> as opposed to no spark with either the trailing or leading plug. I have >> seen evidence that SAG may be (similar to?) preignition caused by decrea= sed >> thermal conductivity between the center electrode and the tip of the >> ceramic. This decreased thermal conductivity results from corrosion bet= ween >> the ceramic and the center electrode and this corrosion is accelerated b= y >> the use of leaded fuel. There is also some evidence for decreased therm= al >> conductivity of the center electrode copper core as the spark plugs age. >> >> >> >> Steve Boese >> >> >> >> *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] *= On >> Behalf Of *Kelly Troyer >> *Sent:* Monday, January 03, 2011 1:17 PM >> >> *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft >> *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: GM Coil Comparison >> >> >> >> Steve, >> >> Good to start the year off with an interesring and educational string >> !! Steve to shine >> >> some light on Al's question about electrode erosion and possible "SAG" >> reduction what >> >> has been your experience with plug life and have you had SAG with the D5= 85 >> coil/igniters?? >> >> >> >> Kelly Troyer >> *"DYKE DELTA JD2"** **(Eventually)* >> >> "13B ROTARY"_ Engine >> "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2 >> "MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold >> >> "TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> *From:* Al Gietzen >> >> *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft >> *Sent:* Mon, January 3, 2011 1:38:42 PM >> *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: GM Coil Comparison >> >> Aside from the higher spark current from the D585s eroding the >> sparkplug electrodes more quickly; do we have evidence that it will, in >> fact, improve performance? Perhaps it is a cure for SAG. >> >> >> >> BTW; my 6 D581 coils (Mounted atop my 20B) have been in use since my fir= st >> engine start back in about 2001. They have survived many hours of groun= d >> test runs where cowl temps exceeded 150F (at times I=92m sure reached 19= 0+ for >> short periods); and 200 fight hours with nary a single failure. In-cowl >> temps are typically about 150 during climb-out; and generally 120-140 du= ring >> cruise. >> >> >> >> Perhaps it helps that they get plenty of air flow (during flight) being >> pretty much in blast from the rad exit. I generally run the rad aux fan= for >> awhile after shutdown; but I=92d guess high temp is less of an issue whe= n they >> are not operating. >> >> >> >> Al >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] *= On >> Behalf Of *Tracy >> *Sent:* Monday, January 03, 2011 8:13 AM >> *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft >> *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: GM Coil Comparison >> >> >> >> I highly recommend the air cooled enclosure as Steve Boese (and I) use. >> This is especially important on the D581 and the stock RX-8 Renesis coil= s. >> The Renesis coils have a fairly high failure rate even on the car. The >> D581 would only last a few hours at 150 F but I have about 250 hours on = them >> with the airbox at 120F. >> >> Don't forget to do the coil disable test to check for failed coils prior >> to every flight. >> >> Tracy >> >> On Mon, Jan 3, 2011 at 10:53 AM, Steven W. Boese wrote= : >> >> I have about 100 hours on D585 coils and have had no problems with them = so >> far. The temperature in their airblasted enclosure is usually less than= 100 >> degrees in flight and has gotten up to 120 degrees during taxi. >> >> >> >> Steve Boese >> >> >> >> *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] *= On >> Behalf Of *Tracy >> *Sent:* Monday, January 03, 2011 8:41 AM >> *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft >> *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: GM Coil Comparison >> >> >> >> I have a set of the D585 coils but have only evaluated them on the bench >> for compatibility with the EC2/3 (they are). >> >> I do know that the previous version of the truck coils (D581) are not as >> reliable as the D580 (Corvette) coils. >> >> Tracy >> >> On Sun, Jan 2, 2011 at 2:16 PM, Kelly Troyer wrote: >> >> Happy New Year Group, >> >> >> >> A little info regarding the various GM ignition coils that many = of >> us use on our >> >> Rotary engines with Tracy's EC2 and EC3 boxes that I thought might be of >> interest >> >> to those that have not seen it before.............Tracy would like your >> comments on the >> >> the apparently big performance difference between the LS1 verses the LS2 >> Truck >> >> coils and if an upgrade would be worth the $$ especially for those of us >> that have >> >> or plan on Turbocharging in light of the higher combustion chamber >> pressures....... >> >> >> >> >> >> http://www.megamanual.com/seq/coils.htm#ls1 >> >> >> >> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3D-6218245369765754251&hl=3Den >> >> >> >> >> Kelly Troyer >> *"DYKE DELTA JD2" **(Eventually)* >> >> "13B ROTARY"_ Engine >> "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2 >> "MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold >> >> "TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo >> >> >> >> >> > > --00151749f5e827200004990e4965 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bobby,

Without measuring, I'm not sure if I have eno= ugh space to mount six coils side by side in a single row. =A0But that desi= gn might work if I can mount them in two rows, three on each side.

Mark =A0

On Tue, Jan 4, 2011 a= t 5:25 PM, Bobby J. Hughes <bhughes@qnsi.net> wrote:
Here's one idea.
=A0

From: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 [mailto:fl= yrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Mark=20 Steitle
Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2011 2:53 PM
To: Rot= ary=20 motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: GM Coil=20 Comparison

Yesterday I ordered 6 new D585 coils for my 20B. =A0It looks lik= e=20 they mount differently than the D580 coils. =A0Does anyone have any picture= s=20 they could share of how they mounted their D585 coils? =A0

FWIW, the old D580 coils have close to 200 hrs on them with no failure= s.=20 =A0I mounted them down low on the motor mount. =A0The lack of vibration=20 and heat may account for their longevity. =A0

Mark S.

On Mon, Jan 3, 2011 at 2:53 PM, Steven W. Boese = <= SBoese@uwyo.edu>=20 wrote:

Kelly= ,

=A0

My sp= ark plug=20 life has been the same with the stock 13B coils and the D585 coils.=A0 I= =20 have had SAG with the D585 coils also.=A0 As I discussed at the Paducah f= ly=20 in, SAG does not appear to be a spark plug misfire or failure to spark.= =A0=20 The effect on EGT and coolant temperatures is the opposite for SAG as opp= osed=20 to no spark with either the trailing or leading plug.=A0 I have seen=20 evidence that SAG may be (similar to?) preignition caused by decreased th= ermal=20 conductivity between the center electrode and the tip of the ceramic.=A0= =20 This decreased thermal conductivity results from corrosion between the ce= ramic=20 and the center electrode and this corrosion is accelerated by the use of= =20 leaded fuel. =A0There is also some evidence for decreased thermal=20 conductivity of the center electrode copper core as the spark plugs=20 age.

=A0

Steve= =20 Boese

=A0

From:= Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancair= online.net] On Behalf Of Kelly=20 Troyer
Sent: Monday, January 03, 2011 1:17 PM


To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject:=20 [FlyRotary] Re: GM Coil Comparison

=A0

Steve,

=A0=A0 Good to start the year off with an=20 interesring and educational string !! Steve to shine

some light on Al's question about electr= ode erosion=20 and possible "SAG" reduction what

has been your experience with plug life and = have you=20 had SAG with the D585 coil/igniters??

=A0

Kelly Troyer
= "DYKE=20 DELTA JD2" (Eventually)

"13B ROTARY"_ Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil=20 Manifold

"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo

=A0

=A0

From: Al=20 Gietzen <ALVen= tures@cox.net>


To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net&g= t;
Sent: Mon, January=20 3, 2011 1:38:42 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: GM Coil Comparison

Aside fr= om the=20 higher spark current from the D585s eroding the sparkplug electrodes more= =20 quickly; do we have evidence that it will, in fact, improve performance?= =20 Perhaps it is a cure for SAG.

= =A0

BTW; my = 6 D581=20 coils (Mounted atop my 20B) have been in use since my first engine start = back=20 in about 2001. =A0They have survived many hours of ground test runs where= =20 cowl temps exceeded 150F (at times I=92m sure reached 190+ for short peri= ods);=20 and 200 fight hours with nary a single failure. In-cowl temps are typical= ly=20 about 150 during climb-out; and generally 120-140 during cruise.=20 =A0

= =A0

Perhaps = it helps=20 that they get plenty of air flow (during flight) being pretty much in bla= st=20 from the rad exit.=A0 I generally run the rad aux fan for awhile after=20 shutdown; but I=92d guess high temp is less of an issue when they are not= =20 operating.

= =A0

Al

= =A0

-----Original Message-----
From: Rotary=20 motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of=20 Tracy
Sent: Monday, January 03, 2011 8:13 AM
To:= =20 Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: GM Coil=20 Comparison

=A0

I highly recommend the air cooled enclosure as Steve Boese= =20 (and I) use.=A0 This is especially important on the D581 and the stock RX= -8=20 Renesis coils.=A0 The Renesis coils have a fairly high failure rate even = on=20 the car.=A0=A0 The D581 would only last a few hours at 150 F but I have= =20 about 250 hours on them with the airbox at 120F.

Don't forget = to do the=20 coil disable test to check for failed coils prior to every=20 flight.

Tracy

On Mon, Jan 3, 2011 at= 10:53 AM,=20 Steven W. Boese <= SBoese@uwyo.edu> wrote:

I have about 100 hours on D585 coils=20 and have had no problems with them so far.=A0 The temperature in their=20 airblasted enclosure is usually less than 100 degrees in flight and has g= otten=20 up to 120 degrees during taxi.

=A0

Steve Boese

=A0

From: Rotary=20 motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of=20 Tracy
Sent: Monday, January 03, 2011 8:41 AM
To:= =20 Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: GM Coil=20 Comparison

=A0

I have a set of the D585 coils but have only evaluated them = on=20 the bench for compatibility with the EC2/3=A0 (they are).

I do kno= w=20 that the previous version of the truck coils (D581) are not as reliable a= s the=20 D580 (Corvette) coils.

Tracy

On Sun, Jan 2, 2011 at= 2:16 PM,=20 Kelly Troyer <kelt= ro@att.net> wrote:

Happy=A0New Year Group,

=A0

=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 A little info=20 regarding the various GM ignition coils that many of us use on=20 our

Rotary engines=A0with Tracy's EC2 and EC3 boxes that I=20 thought might be of interest

to=20 those that have not seen it before.............Tracy would like your comm= ents=20 on the

the=20 apparently big performance difference between the LS1 verses the LS2=20 Truck

coils=20 and if an upgrade would be worth the $$ especially for those of us that= =20 have

or=20 plan on Turbocharging in light of the higher combustion chamber=20 pressures.......=A0

=A0

=A0

=A0


=A0

Kelly=20 Troyer
"DY= KE DELTA=20 JD2" (Eventually)

"13B ROTA= RY"_=20 Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"MISTRAL"_Backplate/O= il Manifold

"TURBONET= ICS"_TO4E50=20 Turbo

=A0

=A0



--00151749f5e827200004990e4965--