X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail-ey0-f180.google.com ([209.85.215.180] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.11) with ESMTPS id 4663848 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 04 Jan 2011 15:53:28 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.215.180; envelope-from=msteitle@gmail.com Received: by eyf18 with SMTP id 18so6344274eyf.25 for ; Tue, 04 Jan 2011 12:52:53 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:received:in-reply-to :references:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=mWvLlwgsQjdM+S3/cPBBDGsMPPmHE+6VOYXQfeKrI4E=; b=hxyg3P1Rjc4YYcs586VJPeuub7eSzAif4Aiwj8zhKBjem589s1O+tr/Ex0cQJqWZz2 7eMt5TpzWzoJYOcXFBHSHbZjFTbF1hkajWqZzwK0UO/p71mAa7cdUSsGeIm1KFB5tcdY iFPDsSYvjh0DVA83fIXUlZG9hhPPfbBmju0GQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=KE8qeMjKssium09C4vQ2wxCn24UtAsdH0Gt2hCfvlNvAZoZzqow726cYOR1wRUduag iqF37JrsMlmIW8HrNZaOw7GffS0mBtQErzc+N1XOQKzZmA8kIHMbRiJRcNmm60610cGZ l2ppQ2XXaWGOd1t8p2PX5YjoTiHdNgyzRbogI= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.213.5.20 with SMTP id 20mr1975130ebt.23.1294174373638; Tue, 04 Jan 2011 12:52:53 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.213.33.206 with HTTP; Tue, 4 Jan 2011 12:52:53 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2011 14:52:53 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: GM Coil Comparison From: Mark Steitle To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0015174be4d0d1726e04990b73ef --0015174be4d0d1726e04990b73ef Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yesterday I ordered 6 new D585 coils for my 20B. It looks like they mount differently than the D580 coils. Does anyone have any pictures they could share of how they mounted their D585 coils? FWIW, the old D580 coils have close to 200 hrs on them with no failures. I mounted them down low on the motor mount. The lack of vibration and heat may account for their longevity. Mark S. On Mon, Jan 3, 2011 at 2:53 PM, Steven W. Boese wrote: > Kelly, > > > > My spark plug life has been the same with the stock 13B coils and the D58= 5 > coils. I have had SAG with the D585 coils also. As I discussed at the > Paducah fly in, SAG does not appear to be a spark plug misfire or failure= to > spark. The effect on EGT and coolant temperatures is the opposite for SA= G > as opposed to no spark with either the trailing or leading plug. I have > seen evidence that SAG may be (similar to?) preignition caused by decreas= ed > thermal conductivity between the center electrode and the tip of the > ceramic. This decreased thermal conductivity results from corrosion betw= een > the ceramic and the center electrode and this corrosion is accelerated by > the use of leaded fuel. There is also some evidence for decreased therma= l > conductivity of the center electrode copper core as the spark plugs age. > > > > Steve Boese > > > > *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] *O= n > Behalf Of *Kelly Troyer > *Sent:* Monday, January 03, 2011 1:17 PM > > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: GM Coil Comparison > > > > Steve, > > Good to start the year off with an interesring and educational string = !! > Steve to shine > > some light on Al's question about electrode erosion and possible "SAG" > reduction what > > has been your experience with plug life and have you had SAG with the D58= 5 > coil/igniters?? > > > > Kelly Troyer > *"DYKE DELTA JD2"** **(Eventually)* > > "13B ROTARY"_ Engine > "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2 > "MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold > > "TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo > > > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* Al Gietzen > > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Sent:* Mon, January 3, 2011 1:38:42 PM > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: GM Coil Comparison > > Aside from the higher spark current from the D585s eroding the sparkplug > electrodes more quickly; do we have evidence that it will, in fact, impro= ve > performance? Perhaps it is a cure for SAG. > > > > BTW; my 6 D581 coils (Mounted atop my 20B) have been in use since my firs= t > engine start back in about 2001. They have survived many hours of ground > test runs where cowl temps exceeded 150F (at times I=92m sure reached 190= + for > short periods); and 200 fight hours with nary a single failure. In-cowl > temps are typically about 150 during climb-out; and generally 120-140 dur= ing > cruise. > > > > Perhaps it helps that they get plenty of air flow (during flight) being > pretty much in blast from the rad exit. I generally run the rad aux fan = for > awhile after shutdown; but I=92d guess high temp is less of an issue when= they > are not operating. > > > > Al > > > > -----Original Message----- > *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] *O= n > Behalf Of *Tracy > *Sent:* Monday, January 03, 2011 8:13 AM > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: GM Coil Comparison > > > > I highly recommend the air cooled enclosure as Steve Boese (and I) use. > This is especially important on the D581 and the stock RX-8 Renesis coils= . > The Renesis coils have a fairly high failure rate even on the car. The > D581 would only last a few hours at 150 F but I have about 250 hours on t= hem > with the airbox at 120F. > > Don't forget to do the coil disable test to check for failed coils prior = to > every flight. > > Tracy > > On Mon, Jan 3, 2011 at 10:53 AM, Steven W. Boese wrote: > > I have about 100 hours on D585 coils and have had no problems with them s= o > far. The temperature in their airblasted enclosure is usually less than = 100 > degrees in flight and has gotten up to 120 degrees during taxi. > > > > Steve Boese > > > > *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] *O= n > Behalf Of *Tracy > *Sent:* Monday, January 03, 2011 8:41 AM > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: GM Coil Comparison > > > > I have a set of the D585 coils but have only evaluated them on the bench > for compatibility with the EC2/3 (they are). > > I do know that the previous version of the truck coils (D581) are not as > reliable as the D580 (Corvette) coils. > > Tracy > > On Sun, Jan 2, 2011 at 2:16 PM, Kelly Troyer wrote: > > Happy New Year Group, > > > > A little info regarding the various GM ignition coils that many o= f > us use on our > > Rotary engines with Tracy's EC2 and EC3 boxes that I thought might be of > interest > > to those that have not seen it before.............Tracy would like your > comments on the > > the apparently big performance difference between the LS1 verses the LS2 > Truck > > coils and if an upgrade would be worth the $$ especially for those of us > that have > > or plan on Turbocharging in light of the higher combustion chamber > pressures....... > > > > > > http://www.megamanual.com/seq/coils.htm#ls1 > > > > http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3D-6218245369765754251&hl=3Den > > > > > Kelly Troyer > *"DYKE DELTA JD2" **(Eventually)* > > "13B ROTARY"_ Engine > "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2 > "MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold > > "TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo > > > > > --0015174be4d0d1726e04990b73ef Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yesterday I ordered 6 new D585 coils for my 20B. =A0It looks like they moun= t differently than the D580 coils. =A0Does anyone have any pictures they co= uld share of how they mounted their D585 coils? =A0

FWIW= , the old D580 coils have close to 200 hrs on them with no failures. =A0I m= ounted them down low on the motor mount. =A0The lack of vibration and heat = may account for their longevity. =A0

Mark S.

On Mon, Jan 3, 201= 1 at 2:53 PM, Steven W. Boese <SBoese@uwyo.edu> wrote:

Kelly,

=A0

My spark plug life has been = the same with the stock 13B coils and the D585 coils.=A0 I have had SAG wit= h the D585 coils also.=A0 As I discussed at the Paducah fly in, SAG does no= t appear to be a spark plug misfire or failure to spark.=A0 The effect on E= GT and coolant temperatures is the opposite for SAG as opposed to no spark = with either the trailing or leading plug.=A0 I have seen evidence that SAG = may be (similar to?) preignition caused by decreased thermal conductivity b= etween the center electrode and the tip of the ceramic.=A0 This decreased t= hermal conductivity results from corrosion between the ceramic and the cent= er electrode and this corrosion is accelerated by the use of leaded fuel. = =A0There is also some evidence for decreased thermal conductivity of the ce= nter electrode copper core as the spark plugs age.

=A0

Steve Boese

=A0

Fr= om: Rotary motors in aircraft [= mailto:fly= rotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Kelly Troyer
Sent: Monday, January 03, 2011 1:17 PM

<= br>To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = GM Coil Comparison

=A0

Steve,

=

=A0=A0 Good to start the year off with an= interesring and educational string !! Steve to shine

=

some light on Al's question about electrode erosion and possible = "SAG" reduction what

= has been your experience with plug life and have you had SAG with the= D585 coil/igniters??

=A0

= Kelly Troyer
"DYKE = DELTA JD2" (Eventually)

"13B ROTARY"_ Engine
"RWS"= ;_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold

<= span>"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo

=A0

=A0

From: Al Gietzen= <ALVentures@cox= .net>


To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironlin= e.net>
Sent: Mon, January 3, 2011 1:38:42 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: GM Coil Comparison<= /div>

Aside from the higher spar= k current from the D585s eroding the sparkplug electrodes more quickly; do = we have evidence that it will, in fact, improve performance? Perhaps it is = a cure for SAG.

=A0

BT= W; my 6 D581 coils (Mounted atop my 20B) have been in use since my first en= gine start back in about 2001. =A0They have survived many hours of ground t= est runs where cowl temps exceeded 150F (at times I=92m sure reached 190+ f= or short periods); and 200 fight hours with nary a single failure. In-cowl = temps are typically about 150 during climb-out; and generally 120-140 durin= g cruise. =A0

=A0

Pe= rhaps it helps that they get plenty of air flow (during flight) being prett= y much in blast from the rad exit.=A0 I generally run the rad aux fan for a= while after shutdown; but I=92d guess high temp is less of an issue when th= ey are not operating.

=A0

Al=

=A0

-----Original Message-----
From: Rotary motors in aircraf= t [mailto:= flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Tracy
Sent: Monday, January 03, 2011 8:13 AM
To: Rotary motors i= n aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: GM Coil Comparison

=

=A0

I highly recommend the air cooled enclosure as Steve Boese (and I) use.=A0 = This is especially important on the D581 and the stock RX-8 Renesis coils.= =A0 The Renesis coils have a fairly high failure rate even on the car.=A0= =A0 The D581 would only last a few hours at 150 F but I have about 250 hour= s on them with the airbox at 120F.

Don't forget to do the coil disable test to check for failed coils = prior to every flight.

Tracy

On Mon, Jan 3, 2011 at 10:53 AM, Steven W. Boese <SBoese@uwyo.edu> w= rote:

I have about 100 hours on D585 coils and ha= ve had no problems with them so far.=A0 The temperature in their airblasted= enclosure is usually less than 100 degrees in flight and has gotten up to = 120 degrees during taxi.

=A0

Steve Boese

=A0

From: Rotary motors in= aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Tracy
Sent: Monday, January 03, 2011 8:41 AM
To: Rotary motors i= n aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: GM Coil Comparison

=

=A0

I have a set of the D585 coils but have only evaluated them on the bench fo= r compatibility with the EC2/3=A0 (they are).

I do know that the pre= vious version of the truck coils (D581) are not as reliable as the D580 (Co= rvette) coils.

Tracy

On Sun,= Jan 2, 2011 at 2:16 PM, Kelly Troyer <keltro@att.net> wrote:

Happy=A0New Year Group,

=A0

=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 A little info regarding = the various GM ignition coils that many of us use on our

Rotary engines=A0with Tracy's EC2 and EC3 boxes that I th= ought might be of interest

to those that have not seen it before..........= ...Tracy would like your comments on the

the appare= ntly big performance difference between the LS1 verses the LS2 Truck=

coils and if an upgrade would be worth the $$ especially for = those of us that have

or plan on Turbocharging in light of the higher= combustion chamber pressures.......=A0

=A0<= /p>

=A0

=A0


=A0

Kelly Troyer
"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)<= /span>

"13B ROTARY&= quot;_ Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"MISTRAL"_Backpl= ate/Oil Manifold

"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo

= =A0

= =A0

<= br>
--0015174be4d0d1726e04990b73ef--