X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from fed1rmmtao101.cox.net ([68.230.241.45] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.11) with ESMTP id 4658533 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 30 Dec 2010 01:50:25 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=68.230.241.45; envelope-from=alventures@cox.net Received: from fed1rmimpo02.cox.net ([70.169.32.72]) by fed1rmmtao101.cox.net (InterMail vM.8.01.03.00 201-2260-125-20100507) with ESMTP id <20101230064951.QELN4818.fed1rmmtao101.cox.net@fed1rmimpo02.cox.net> for ; Thu, 30 Dec 2010 01:49:51 -0500 Received: from BigAl ([72.199.216.14]) by fed1rmimpo02.cox.net with bizsmtp id pJpf1f0090KDB3c04JpqU6; Thu, 30 Dec 2010 01:49:50 -0500 X-VR-Score: 0.00 X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.1 cv=ZH8U2ZeJmbD9OoBczrItEMYePoWmZ9qoR2uYc095tHo= c=1 sm=1 a=5bKx61Ij6foA:10 a=TPvrVRyicAsl4VeEYn0L5g==:17 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=e70CQy2v79j5hGW1-JgA:9 a=pvT9kLZMBFWRoSttfpwA:7 a=GPoUmmqRUVpy7j-3Rz8Vm0ogB3cA:4 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=EzXvWhQp4_cA:10 a=Ly3VR9H3C45ahpS4:21 a=Hv6C3yEZBiSDdFM-:21 a=qHCuzmDzIkbbHfnuxd8A:9 a=w53r271lc4X-di1-uqMA:7 a=VM_EmXmQQkcnUb3ar0P62eLqiMQA:4 a=EUgeCJ6dF-Vo5BPF:21 a=JiCbWLXAQ5kiTUb2:21 a=VouZ2f3KeFN6Pn4HKBcA:9 a=l241BrvMVCAJwJY2w4TNR5xhNCQA:4 a=1Vq_FK4TplAA:10 a=YRsH--KlFlX8ppg2tVwA:9 a=lqL_KKYfmo4NNDe3cQkA:9 a=2SRFcEm5RH2KDyvl574VPGahGjEA:4 a=PhVFSXUDhSa8Ulph6hAA:9 a=TPvrVRyicAsl4VeEYn0L5g==:117 X-CM-Score: 0.00 Authentication-Results: cox.net; none From: "Al Gietzen" To: "'Rotary motors in aircraft'" Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Off topic: Hangar doors Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2010 22:50:34 -0800 Message-ID: <6F6A8FCA99F74C36931DD947A39EBFFF@BigAl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000A_01CBA7AA.D4009D00" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6863 Importance: Normal Thread-Index: AcunG8iA9DDWqSJkSiazxJtSnoDxlAA0GRcg In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5994 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01CBA7AA.D4009D00 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000B_01CBA7AA.D402E6F0" ------=_NextPart_001_000B_01CBA7AA.D402E6F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I sense that you're well on your way to push-back accordion fold door; = but here's my 2-cents worth after using that type and a power-lift bifold, = each for about 2 years. =20 The accordion fold doors had translucent fiberglass over the framing, = which was very nice for light when the doors were closed. The lower track = wasn't drained, so it filled with water at every rain and the track and the = rollers rusted in a couple of years. And, the doors were a bit of a chore = opening and closing, although these were rather tall; 16-18 ft, so were a bit = heavy. =20 The power-lift bi-fold is great. If I were doing it; I'd add some = framing so it could have some translucent panels in the upper half for light when = the door is closed. =20 Al G =20 -----Original Message----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Finn Lassen Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2010 9:46 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Off topic: Hangar doors =20 Looking to design and build hangar doors. I kinda fancy vertical harmonica doors. /\/\/\/\/\ The inner points carried by wheels in groove in concrete slab. Wheels able to pivot in bottom of door frames. Top supported by rollers in a steel U-channel, able to pivot in top of = door frames. I figure 3 feet wide sections hinged at edges. The thinner the better, but will have to be able to withstand wind = pressure without deforming. 10 feet tall. Max wind pressure 31 pounds/sq ft. (110 mph wind zone). Obviously that's on the high side. There are trees in the vicinity. So = 20 pounds/sq ft may be a more realistic number. But it doesn't hurt to be = on the safe side, For calculations the vertical supports will be spaced 1.5 feet apart. (Actually 3 feet apart but doubled at each edge). I'm figuring maximum of 450 pounds of distributed weight (wind pressure) = on each vertical support. I've seen a couple of different formulas for maximum deflection, for example: 5/384 * W * L^3 / (E * I). I assume I can safely use E =3D 30,000,000 for steel. Let's say I'll allow 3" maximum deflection: I =3D 0.113? However, I'm having trouble arriving at values for I (area moment of inertia). What would I be for a 2"x2" 1/8" wall square steel tube? I_0 =3D \frac{bh^3}{12} =20 =20 (2 * 2^3) / 12 =3D 1.33?=20 Or would that only be for a solid 2x2" bar? For a 1.5" square tube? I =3D 0.42? (I also need guard railing for my porch. Seems a1.5"D tube with 1/8" = wall is I =3D 0.1276. \pi \left(\frac{{r_2}+{r_1}}{2}\right)^3 \left({r_2}-{r_1}\right) Does that seem right?) Also, I guess I'm not so much concerned with deflection as with point of permanent deformation. How would I arrive at that number? My objective is the thin hangar doors and the lightest guard rails. And = of course cheapest materials. Sanity check appreciated. Finn ------=_NextPart_001_000B_01CBA7AA.D402E6F0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I sense that you’re well on = your way to push-back accordion fold door; but here’s my 2-cents worth = after using that type and a power-lift bifold, each for about 2 = years.

 

The accordion fold doors had = translucent fiberglass over the framing, which was very nice for light when the = doors were closed. The lower track wasn’t drained, so it filled with water at = every rain and the track and the rollers rusted in a couple of years.  = And, the doors were a bit of a chore opening and closing, although these were = rather tall; 16-18 ft, so were a bit heavy.

 

The power-lift bi-fold is great. = If I were doing it; I’d add some framing so it could have some = translucent panels in the upper half for light when the door is = closed.

 

Al G

 

-----Origi= nal Message-----
From: Rotary motors in = aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Finn Lassen
Sent: Tuesday, December = 28, 2010 9:46 PM
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Off = topic: Hangar doors

 

Looking to = design and build hangar doors.

I kinda fancy vertical harmonica doors.
/\/\/\/\/\
The inner points carried by wheels in groove in concrete slab.
Wheels able to pivot in bottom of door frames.
Top supported by rollers in a steel U-channel, able to pivot in top of = door frames.
I figure 3 feet wide sections hinged at edges.
The thinner the better, but will have to be able to withstand wind = pressure without deforming.

10 feet tall.
Max wind pressure 31 pounds/sq ft. (110 mph wind zone).
Obviously that's on the high side. There are trees in the vicinity. So = 20 pounds/sq ft may be a more realistic number. But it doesn't hurt to be = on the safe side,

For calculations the vertical supports will be spaced 1.5 feet apart. = (Actually 3 feet apart but doubled at each edge).

I'm figuring maximum of 450 pounds of distributed weight (wind pressure) = on each vertical support.

I've seen a couple of different formulas for maximum deflection, for = example:
5/384 * W * L^3 / (E * I).

I assume I can safely use E =3D 30,000,000 for steel.

Let's say I'll allow 3" maximum deflection:
I =3D 0.113?

However, I'm having trouble arriving at values for I (area moment of = inertia).

What would I be for a 2"x2" 1/8" wall square steel = tube?

3D"I_0

 

 


(2 * 2^3) / 12 =3D 1.33?
Or would that only be for a solid 2x2" bar?

For a 1.5" square tube?
I =3D 0.42?

(I also need guard railing for my porch. Seems a1.5"D  tube = with 1/8" wall is I =3D  0.1276.
3D"\pi
Does that seem right?)

Also, I guess I'm not so much concerned with deflection as with point of permanent deformation.
How would I arrive at that number?

My objective is the thin hangar doors and the lightest guard rails. And = of course cheapest materials.

Sanity check appreciated.

Finn

------=_NextPart_001_000B_01CBA7AA.D402E6F0-- ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01CBA7AA.D4009D00 Content-Type: image/gif; name="image001.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: R0lGODlhSQAsAHcAACH/C01TT0ZGSUNFOS4wGAAAAAxtc09QTVNPRkZJQ0U5LjAQAiDF3gAh+QQB AAAAACwAAAAASQAsAIT///8WFhaenp50dHTMzMwwMDAMDAzm5uZiYmK2traKiopAQEAEBAQiIiJQ UFAAAAABAgMBAgMBAgMBAgMBAgMBAgMBAgMBAgMBAgMBAgMBAgMBAgMBAgMBAgMBAgMBAgME/xDI Sau9OGst1CjCJo5kOT2h8JisSTTPUr2xlUhqq5OPcvWZBWJHzCQeBxvykkA0ksUoBWG4UC/QBAMq jTZklq9FsZI8Bl3pA4H4cM/thUOSmAMOj1uaeLR/6DVmBBIKbQU+e0RXOGUIDBQPg4l7YhIDZZUA OZN7DIgABVUAQBILDZxpeFwMc0erPlyoO3gTClsAi5plaLJFAYMHBiEAmU4ACrG9LQQLAwt6AMIT Bw0DwyIOMAwLn8qoR93eqAhL4r0Nouaygeqc4O3j5SULAfX29wGn7aHwqAwFFAg4GOAA2p4HCBMq XMiw4QQCZyikS9ePxSVJmgJMCHCtAj18+J30mSvwaMIAkQ2GVGTxbwpKlStFHDD1wMACSScnpDQ3 04KABfQWJOOgUUKAcKgI5KvQRCdFEQagPOV0oAA9kaUCrimRoFlBdQWwjgJjRmzMDGErGAA4gYHZ sxfSZoBoB64GuRgcyLOLAa8FiB35xn1rFKngCn4pHDq8IbEEBJ8MMp7g2MOUyRYSJwjAho0DmJgd LEAoBwoDhoYxt4gAADs= ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01CBA7AA.D4009D00 Content-Type: image/gif; name="image002.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: R0lGODlhtwAsAHcAACH/C01TT0ZGSUNFOS4wGAAAAAxtc09QTVNPRkZJQ0U5LjAQAiDF3gAh+QQB AAAAACwAAAAAtwAsAIT///8iIiIMDAwWFhZ0dHS2traenp5QUFDMzMxiYmLm5uaKiopAQEAEBAQw MDAAAAABAgMBAgMBAgMBAgMBAgMBAgMBAgMBAgMBAgMBAgMBAgMBAgMBAgMBAgMBAgMBAgME/xDI Sau9OOvN+zYL4RheaZ5oqq6s+ZDG0850bd90IcV472+FRU/hQxA8jMRvyQQUHL7A73DUFBIBYnNr Qwx+0p9DiNEWGlquejVAVBYJKEGkQ4U3cDm9I3BbFjISD1VrhSYHBxZHDVkIgyl3GouNjxwLkRMF iQAKD3WGoBsIDX9uLxKfJ5gXC6YkTiUDZG8JIrOhuBcOShVEPBUGCVipGasWvoEWDn4XBgK50CeO aRUHmAq8BQ/UEg4D398N4N/GANZ/CQ3MFwK30e8YDFAYA7wTvwCnG+UW9RjqGhJ8gUfwQoNXFzxZ qNNpHQZ+FRQadNjrAcWC77RlwHfhAIMOEP/vJbMAUIM/FdwwSkh54sDACyIyLPgIskPMfxcpnEtx IGdBAsRODNh0IthKDiE7lJQ5skQChCorMGDp4YG7DlcUKFgQVNmMpRgc+Qw7L+qxstIklnD0oG1T H8EeMLgaka6GAGNVMoBaIgZVsxwE2OvgBTCGAklhvjXcYQBNDwmIMqZAqpvby5UrpJusCi1Sd3kA zHHQtUbo0aUnBCAxFxsCBQe0YjjwjHMJB4kngBUNgJECR4R6TPpdKUMSA3U2SbZA2/btlx22UWiV 71XqGdT1XZeAaAJsAAiWV6ud8LL58+jTq1+f3jh0Dk2RWQg2LCyC+/jzp5Svi2KCxwTAMBj/c+Q5 twFuLnR0TTbSVYCAAxBGKOEus60Cx24A/DfBAEQQIB4FmxnIAYIlNEjBSSJNoA8NKFaAYXdODBSH JIuJWEEAj/ERlFqZrGSRDTxSRhEDVTiwCQGZsVKjjRMI8GEGYwCzpDk5tsCRixQNUEdJo1jx4xIG MMCAY3/VUJxNVd7ESpUtqEkSRUm6wNcNV6hW4BBBbqDAnRoYxQkXu4WpgmBL5OjIgHSaiMR2qCSg FVeAOrSMCvIsIRcFD+SWQgJ8cqCAZxew5dYWcc2VCZslLBDnDQKgxcgSDqBqSXCGgWpCQ1w48iQN K54A1GSOthAAoj4coOgNBqzKZBMLdIqDXSNz2mDksoYIEO0NsizRSZnUCqdpClEu4VG3hgxw7QwJ zMIoCgqgQW4hBbxnWnDEtuAAre9u4SEO8QojzAH1rrCArfk2EW4NDZxnlwoIfFuwDXs59+DDuHBL MbkRAAA7 ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01CBA7AA.D4009D00--