X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from [66.219.56.245] (HELO mail.qnsi.net) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.11) with ESMTP id 4658111 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 29 Dec 2010 15:25:33 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=66.219.56.245; envelope-from=bhughes@qnsi.net Return-Receipt-To: "Bobby J. Hughes" Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Re: Fuel rail pressure MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01CBA797.0F5CFD26" Disposition-Notification-To: "Bobby J. Hughes" Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2010 14:24:57 -0600 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Message-ID: <74120FDE88CAFE4DBDA8814BCE20A3F32837F9@qnsi-mail.qnsi.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [FlyRotary] Re: Fuel rail pressure Thread-Index: AcunlXDNZttTd/0QRcGPXoMMGXL3+gAAF/Ag References: From: "Bobby J. Hughes" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01CBA797.0F5CFD26 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable No idea Kelly. I didn't research the VDO part numbers. My Advanced EM shipped with a Stewart Wagner and I'm still using it. Advanced has not said to change it and they still sell replacements at their web store.=20 I have not installed a second fuel pressure sensor for my EM3 but will in the next 3 weeks. I guess I will add another Stewart Wagner for the EM3.=20 =20 Bobby ________________________________ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Kelly Troyer Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 2:13 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fuel rail pressure Bobby, Do you know if these sensors are 10 to 180 ohm ??.............=20 =20 Kelly Troyer "DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually) "13B ROTARY"_ Engine "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2 "MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold "TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo ________________________________ From: Bobby J. Hughes To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Tue, December 28, 2010 6:11:42 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fuel rail pressure VDO and Advanced part numbers.=20 The injected 41,315 is VDO # 360-003D=20 The carb 41,215 is VDO # 360-043D Bobby =20 ________________________________ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Tracy Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2010 3:52 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fuel rail pressure My Advanced Flight System EFIS \ EM shipped with a Stewart Warner fuel pressure sensor. They have had a few failures and now ship with VDO. Go figure. Strange indeed. I can't find a listing anywhere for a VDO electric fuel pressure gauge nor can I find a VDO pressure sensor that specifically states that it is rated for fuel pressure use. The ones I found now state that they are NOT rated for fuel. Got a part number for it? Tracy On Tue, Dec 28, 2010 at 3:35 PM, Bobby J. Hughes wrote: Tracy, =20 My Advanced Flight System EFIS \ EM shipped with a Stewart Warner fuel pressure sensor. They have had a few failures and now ship with VDO. Go figure. =20 Bobby ________________________________ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Tracy Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2010 1:40 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fuel rail pressure =09 =09 Hello Brian, Here is an excerpt from the updated EM2 installation guide. Note that this assumes that your EM2 has been updated since this change was developed (last 2 months or so). =09 =09 FUEL PRESSURE SENSOR The EM2 was originally designed around VDO pressure sensors and the fuel pressure sensor was to be the same type as used for the Oil Pressure sensor. VDO at some point changed the design of these sensor and they are no longer safe to use with Fuel (they begin leaking from the terminal end). The closest substitute is a Stewart Warner 114875. These are available from Summit Racing as PN SWW-114875. To make it fully compatible with the EM2 you must wire a 562 ohm resistor from the sensor output terminal to ground. This can be added near the sensor or near the EM2, which ever is most convenient. You must also set the Channel 13(mixture) Low limit value to 1 instead of 0. The calibration values for the Fuel pressure channel (12) should then be set to the following values: Scale factor - 6.922 , LOW END OFFSET - 0, SENSOR OFFSET ~ 963 , LOW ALARM LIMIT - ~28 , HIGH ALARM LIMIT -~55.=20 Tracy =09 =09 On Tue, Dec 28, 2010 at 12:10 AM, wrote: =09 =09 Tracy, did you ever find a suitable replacement fuel pressure sender? What are you using now? =20 Thanks, Brian Trubee =09 =09 -----Original Message----- From: Tracy To: Rotary motors in aircraft =09 Sent: Mon, Dec 27, 2010 4:30 pm Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fuel rail pressure =09 =09 Just for another data point: =09 I installed the fuel pressure regulator prior to the fuel rails in my 20B installation so there is no fuel flow to flush vapor from the rails on hot startups. This arrangement is now used on most new cars. Even with this arrangement I have had no trouble with vapor lock. Even if it should happen, the EC2/3 primer function would be able to vent the vapor from the rails. =09 This setup allows the use of a Floscan type fuel flow sensor with the EM2/3 since there is no return flow from the fuel rails. No big advantage other than being much easier to calibrate. =09 Tracy =09 =09 On Mon, Dec 27, 2010 at 6:53 PM, wrote: =09 =09 It seems to me that the fuel would have to be pretty hot for the vapor pressure to exceed 40 psi and cause vapor lock. Running the fuel pump in such a case would cause coller fuel to flow through the rail and back to the tank.=20 =20 Brian Trubee =09 =09 -----Original Message----- From: Al Gietzen To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Mon, Dec 27, 2010 3:49 pm Subject: [FlyRotary] Fuel rail pressure =09 =09 =20 Also remember that when you are starting the engine you are starting it under a load. This is different then in a car config where in a car you are starting it with no load attached to the crankshaft. If the fuel rails are getting so hot that they are vaporizing I would think this would cause an excess pressure in the fuel system and be very dangerous. This is not a problem I have ever had in a car. What is causing this besides poor ventilation? The pressure in the fuel rail can never exceed the setting of the pressure regulator; which should bear about 40 psi engine off. That's true even if you call the e-shaft a crankshaft:-). Al =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01CBA797.0F5CFD26 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
No idea Kelly. I didn't research the VDO part = numbers. My=20 Advanced EM shipped with a Stewart Wagner and I'm still using it. = Advanced has=20 not said to change it and they still sell replacements at their web = store.=20
I have not installed a second fuel=  pressure sensor for my EM3 but will&n= bsp;in the next 3 weeks. I guess I will add another Stewart Wagner for = the EM3.=20
 
Bobby

From: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Kelly=20 Troyer
Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 2:13 = PM
To: Rotary=20 motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fuel rail=20 pressure

Bobby,
   Do you know if these sensors are 10 to 180 ohm=20 ??............. 
 

Kelly Troyer
"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)

"13B ROTARY"_ Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil = Manifold

"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo



From: Bobby J. Hughes=20 <bhughes@qnsi.net>
To:=20 Rotary motors in aircraft = <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Tue, December 28, 2010 = 6:11:42=20 PM
Subject: = [FlyRotary] Re:=20 Fuel rail pressure

VDO and Advanced part = numbers. 

The = injected=20 41,315 is VDO # 360-003D

The = carb=20 41,215 is VDO # 360-043D

Bobby

 


From: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of = Tracy
Sent:=20 Tuesday, December 28, 2010 3:52 PM
To: Rotary motors in=20 aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fuel rail=20 pressure

My = Advanced Flight=20 System EFIS \ EM shipped with a Stewart Warner fuel pressure=20 sensor.  They have had a few failures and now ship with VDO. = Go=20 figure.

Strange indeed.  I can't find a = listing=20 anywhere for a VDO electric fuel pressure gauge nor can I find a VDO = pressure=20 sensor that specifically states that it is rated for fuel pressure = use. =20 The ones I found now state that they are NOT rated for fuel.  Got a = part=20 number for it?

Tracy

On Tue, Dec 28, 2010 at 3:35 PM, Bobby J. = Hughes <bhughes@qnsi.net> = wrote:
Tracy,
 
My=20 Advanced Flight System EFIS \ EM shipped with a Stewart = Warner fuel=20 pressure sensor.  They have had a few failures and now ship = with=20 VDO. Go figure.
 
Bobby
From: = Rotary motors in=20 aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.ne= t]=20 On Behalf Of Tracy
Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2010 = 1:40=20 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: = [FlyRotary] Re:=20 Fuel rail pressure

Hello Brian,
   Here is an excerpt from the = updated=20 EM2 installation guide.   Note that this assumes that your = EM2 has=20 been updated since this change was developed (last 2 months or = so).

FUEL PRESSURE=20 SENSOR

   =20 The EM2 was originally designed around VDO pressure sensors and = the=20 fuel pressure sensor was to be the same type as used for the Oil = Pressure=20 sensor.  VDO at some point changed the design of = these=20 sensor and they are no longer  safe to use with Fuel = (they=20 begin leaking from the terminal end).   The = closest=20 substitute is a Stewart Warner =20 114875.      These = are=20 available from Summit Racing as PN =20 SWW-114875.   To make it fully compatible with the EM2 = you must=20 wire a 562 ohm resistor from the sensor output terminal to=20 ground.   This can be added near the sensor or = near the=20 EM2, which ever is most convenient.    You = must=20 also set the Channel 13(mixture)  Low limit value to = 1=20 instead of 0.  The calibration values for the Fuel = pressure=20 channel (12) should then be set to the following values: =20 Scale factor – 6.922 , LOW END OFFSET – 0, SENSOR = OFFSET ~ 963 , LOW=20 ALARM LIMIT - ~28 , HIGH ALARM LIMIT -~55. =


Tracy

On Tue, Dec 28, 2010 at 12:10 AM, <bktrub@aol.com> = wrote:
Tracy,
did you ever find a suitable replacement fuel pressure sender? = What are=20 you using now?
 
Thanks,
Brian Trubee



-----Original Message-----
From: Tracy <tracy@rotaryaviation.com&= gt;
To:=20 Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.ne= t>
Sent: Mon, Dec 27, 2010 4:30 pm
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Fuel rail=20 pressure

Just for another data point:

I installed the fuel = pressure=20 regulator prior to the fuel rails in my 20B installation so there is = no fuel=20 flow to flush vapor from the rails on hot startups.  This = arrangement=20 is now used on most new cars.  Even with this arrangement I = have had no=20 trouble with vapor lock.   Even if it should happen, the=20 EC2/3  primer function would be able to vent the vapor from the = rails.

This setup allows the use of a Floscan type fuel flow = sensor=20 with the EM2/3 since there is no return flow from the fuel = rails.  No=20 big advantage other than being much easier to=20 calibrate.

Tracy

On Mon, Dec 27, 2010 at 6:53 PM, <bktrub@aol.com> = wrote:
It seems to me that the fuel would have to be pretty hot for = the=20 vapor pressure to exceed 40 psi and cause vapor lock. Running the = fuel=20 pump in such a case would cause coller fuel to flow through the = rail and=20 back to the tank.
 
Brian Trubee



-----Original=20 Message-----
From: Al Gietzen <ALVentures@cox.net>
To:=20 Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.ne= t>
Sent:=20 Mon, Dec 27, 2010 3:49 pm
Subject: [FlyRotary] Fuel rail=20 pressure

 
Also remember that when you are starting = the=20 engine you are starting it under a load.  This is different = then in a=20 car config where in a car you are starting it with no load = attached to the=20 crankshaft.  If the fuel rails are getting so hot that they = are=20 vaporizing I would think this would cause an excess pressure in = the fuel=20 system and be very dangerous.  This is not a problem I have = ever had=20 in a car.  What is causing this besides poor=20 ventilation?
The = pressure in=20 the fuel rail can never exceed the setting of the pressure = regulator;=20 which should bear about 40 psi engine off. That’s true even = if you call=20 the e-shaft a crankshaftJ.
Al
 



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