X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from vms173011pub.verizon.net ([206.46.173.11] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.11) with ESMTP id 4658027 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 29 Dec 2010 13:59:59 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=206.46.173.11; envelope-from=finn.lassen@verizon.net Received: from [192.168.1.100] ([unknown] [71.98.181.96]) by vms173011.mailsrvcs.net (Sun Java(tm) System Messaging Server 7u2-7.02 32bit (built Apr 16 2009)) with ESMTPA id <0LE7008QSE2P9920@vms173011.mailsrvcs.net> for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 29 Dec 2010 12:59:15 -0600 (CST) Message-id: <4D1B8500.7090000@verizon.net> Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2010 13:59:12 -0500 From: Finn Lassen User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.9.2.13) Gecko/20101207 Thunderbird/3.1.7 MIME-version: 1.0 To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Off topic: Hangar doors References: In-reply-to: Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary=------------070604020605070405090601 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------070604020605070405090601 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks Charlie, All good points. Factors to consider in my case: 1) Would like to avoid putting any weight on the truss spanning door opening. That pretty much rules out the horizontal doors. 2) Want entire 10' x 38'8" opening unobstructed. I went through the trouble getting that wide an opening, so it doesn't make sense to make it smaller by obstructing doors. And 10 feet is pretty low if I'd ever hope to get a helicopter in there. The link that Larry sent (http://www.hortonstackdoor.com/stackdoor_description.htm) seems to indicate that it can be done. I was going to go with simple cart wheels on the bottom, but will consider the track - truck assembly. Unlike the Horton stack door, I'm planning on extending the tracks on either side of the opening. In other words, when fully opened the doors would be completely to the left and right of the door opening. Also, one could push an entire door assembly to the side a bit to create a small opening, without getting into accordion mode. Lot's of options. I looked at 3' sections simply because metal siding comes in 3' wide sections. Also, the smaller the sections, the less side load they put on the top track and truss. But yes, more trouble opening them. Hm, considering they don't have to hang out until reaching the sides (concrete wall/column), I guess I could make them 6' sections. Lots of fun considering all the possibilities. Still no takers on calculation of "I" for square or rectangular steel tubing? Finn On 12/29/2010 12:47 PM, Charlie England wrote: > On 12/28/2010 11:46 PM, Finn Lassen wrote: >> Looking to design and build hangar doors. >> >> I kinda fancy vertical harmonica doors. >> /\/\/\/\/\ >> The inner points carried by wheels in groove in concrete slab. >> Wheels able to pivot in bottom of door frames. >> Top supported by rollers in a steel U-channel, able to pivot in top >> of door frames. >> I figure 3 feet wide sections hinged at edges. >> The thinner the better, but will have to be able to withstand wind >> pressure without deforming. >> >> 10 feet tall. >> >> > snipped>> >> Sanity check appreciated. >> >> Finn > Hi Finn, > > > Random Thoughts: > > Bottom tracks/rollers could be a maintenance nightmare, especially in > the sand down there, and the track will either fill up with sand/dirt, > or if you use a raised track, be a pain to pull a plane over. Give it > some thought. > > 110 mph wind survival is likely to be tough to achieve with a 2" thick > door that big. What are the odds of seeing that load, even in FL, > since you're so far from the coast? Also, my thought is that only > moderate survival strength is needed when open, since if they are left > open I'm much more concerned about hangar contents than the doors. > > Accordion doors take up space in the opening of the hangar. > > Thickness isn't really a factor, if the door is hung outside the > hangar & there's a small lip at the top to shelter it. > > More panels = more (expensive: hinge/roller) parts = more complexity = > more build time + more money + higher maintenance. > > More panels = more time/hassle to open/close the doors. > > The lazy among us just copy what's been proven to work. My neighbor > has a 4-panel vertical hinge setup (commercially produced kit) that > hangs from a track; bottom edge is pinned to the floor when closed. > Works fine, but he does have to 'pin' the outer edges to the ground > when they are open. The existing pins at the 'break point' of each > door pair (required to hold the door shut) are also used when open. > Another neighbor has a product known as 'Ultimate Door' that's a kit > of track, rollers, cable, etc. The owner supplies wood (mostly 2x4 & > 1x4 stock) & the covering of choice. It opens like an old style > one-piece garage door. the cables lift the door at vertical the center > line (only 5 feet is cantilevered above/below the lift line) & the > door is guided by the track to open and partially retract into the > hangar. Mine (a one-piece, 30' wide design for the shop side of my > hangar) is built from 6" aluminum irrigation tubing that I bought > cheap. It's hinged at the top & has a single counterweight so it > swings up with only a ~30 lb push. > > I haven't built the door for the big 40+foot opening yet. I'm > seriously considering steel 'purlins', the stuff you see spanning > between the beams of metal buildings. 6-8 inch thick purlins can > easily span 40-50 feet on 5 foot centers and take full snow/wind > loads, so I'm pretty confident that they can handle door loads. > > The bi-folds and one piece top-hinged doors have simplicity on their > side, and they make a nice shaded ramp area when open if you want to > pull the plain out in the breeze while doing maintenance. > > FWIW, > > Charlie > > --------------070604020605070405090601 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks Charlie,

All good points.

Factors to consider in my case:
1) Would like to avoid putting any weight on the truss spanning door opening. That pretty much rules out the horizontal doors.
2) Want entire 10' x 38'8" opening unobstructed. I went through the trouble getting that wide an opening, so it doesn't make sense to make it smaller by obstructing doors. And 10 feet is pretty low if I'd ever hope to get a helicopter in there.

The link that Larry sent (http://www.hortonstackdoor.com/stackdoor_description.htm) seems to indicate that it can be done.
I was going to go with simple cart wheels on the bottom, but will consider the track - truck assembly.
Unlike the Horton stack door, I'm planning on extending the tracks on either side of the opening. In other words, when fully opened the doors would be completely to the left and right of the door opening. Also, one could push an entire door assembly to the side a bit to create a small opening, without getting into accordion mode. Lot's of options.

I looked at 3' sections simply because metal siding comes in 3' wide sections. Also, the smaller the sections, the less side load they put on the top track and truss. But yes, more trouble opening them. Hm, considering they don't have to hang out until reaching the sides (concrete wall/column), I guess I could make them 6' sections.

Lots of fun considering all the possibilities.

Still no takers on calculation of "I" for square or rectangular steel tubing?

Finn

On 12/29/2010 12:47 PM, Charlie England wrote:
On 12/28/2010 11:46 PM, Finn Lassen wrote:
Looking to design and build hangar doors.

I kinda fancy vertical harmonica doors.
/\/\/\/\/\
The inner points carried by wheels in groove in concrete slab.
Wheels able to pivot in bottom of door frames.
Top supported by rollers in a steel U-channel, able to pivot in top of door frames.
I figure 3 feet wide sections hinged at edges.
The thinner the better, but will have to be able to withstand wind pressure without deforming.

10 feet tall.
>>
snipped>>
Sanity check appreciated.

Finn
Hi Finn,


Random Thoughts:

Bottom tracks/rollers could be a maintenance nightmare, especially in the sand down there, and the track will either fill up with sand/dirt, or if you use a raised track, be a pain to pull a plane over. Give it some thought.

110 mph wind survival is likely to be tough to achieve with a 2" thick door that big. What are the odds of seeing that load, even in FL, since you're so far from the coast? Also, my thought is that only moderate survival strength is needed when open, since if they are left open I'm much more concerned about hangar contents than the doors.

Accordion doors take up space in the opening of the hangar.

Thickness isn't really a factor, if the door is hung outside the hangar & there's a small lip at the top to shelter it.

More panels = more (expensive: hinge/roller) parts = more complexity = more build time + more money + higher maintenance.

More panels = more time/hassle to open/close the doors.

 The lazy among us just copy what's been proven to work. My neighbor has a 4-panel vertical hinge setup (commercially produced kit) that hangs from a track; bottom edge is pinned to the floor when closed. Works fine, but he does have to 'pin' the outer edges to the ground when they are open. The existing pins at the 'break point' of each door pair (required to hold the door shut) are also used when open. Another neighbor has a product known as 'Ultimate Door' that's a kit of track, rollers, cable, etc. The owner supplies wood (mostly 2x4 & 1x4 stock) & the covering of choice. It opens like an old style one-piece garage door. the cables lift the door at vertical the center line (only 5 feet is cantilevered above/below  the lift line) & the door is guided by the track to open and partially retract into the hangar. Mine (a one-piece, 30' wide design for the shop side of my hangar) is built from 6" aluminum irrigation tubing that I bought cheap. It's hinged at the top & has a single counterweight so it swings up with only a ~30 lb push.

I haven't built the door for the big 40+foot opening yet. I'm seriously considering steel 'purlins', the stuff you see spanning between the beams of metal buildings. 6-8 inch thick purlins can easily span 40-50 feet on 5 foot centers and take full snow/wind loads, so I'm pretty confident that they can handle door loads.

The bi-folds and one piece top-hinged doors have simplicity on their side, and they make a nice shaded ramp area when open if you want to pull the plain out in the breeze while doing maintenance.

FWIW,

Charlie



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