X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com ([75.180.132.121] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.11) with ESMTP id 4657148 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 28 Dec 2010 18:33:47 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=75.180.132.121; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Return-Path: X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.1 cv=uESSSoDEku2quKX/oFXS2Smn5+55LTFcWFr5T5T8nFs= c=1 sm=0 a=95HivMNLQAgA:10 a=rPkcCx1H5rrOSfN0dPC7kw==:17 a=leHgfMLnAAAA:8 a=glYVDZ00AAAA:8 a=ZCPP4k9vAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=UretUmmEAAAA:8 a=UKPAHat8AAAA:8 a=3oc9M9_CAAAA:8 a=kviXuzpPAAAA:8 a=nEcJnm9fwz1hTz2uTR4A:9 a=ZEOf2TG6KN7oclecypsA:7 a=iZZ4wMYenE84TW5DgT6v8njO9q8A:4 a=pILNOxqGKmIA:10 a=1oOeWRDMGYAA:10 a=XCwpvLtFMdsA:10 a=EzXvWhQp4_cA:10 a=iVkDmfvjeKcA:10 a=7god_763jbgA:10 a=U8Ie8EnqySEA:10 a=4vB-4DCPJfMA:10 a=XgsS19Ew4LQ7N97I:21 a=dByyoU44TuiCOwnf:21 a=wrnlkVK_AAAA:8 a=8g5sMaUTCoqgrMuk93UA:9 a=GsitAiHK8Ut94dYWtv8A:7 a=2udLxf9NYU2XCRKQHa2rimgSC2oA:4 a=rPkcCx1H5rrOSfN0dPC7kw==:117 X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 X-Originating-IP: 174.110.167.5 Received: from [174.110.167.5] ([174.110.167.5:52406] helo=EdPC) by cdptpa-oedge01.mail.rr.com (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 2.2.3.46 r()) with ESMTP id BF/52-07087-9B37A1D4; Tue, 28 Dec 2010 23:33:14 +0000 Message-ID: <1953E5A03496461581435FC3F6F439E1@EdPC> From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Fuel rail pressure Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2010 18:33:12 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0BD5_01CBA6BD.AF3113D0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 14.0.8117.416 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V14.0.8117.416 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0BD5_01CBA6BD.AF3113D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Tracy, UMA has some fuel pressure transducers - I've used the same one = for over 10 years. Look under the non-TSO Pressure sensors menu. I use = the one with a range of 0-70 psi with Pressure max of 290 psi. http://www.umainstruments.com/ Ed From: Tracy=20 Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2010 5:26 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fuel rail pressure That sensor comes with a tag warning NOT to use for fuel pressure = applications. Tracy On Tue, Dec 28, 2010 at 5:11 PM, Chris Barber = wrote: So, this http://www.egauges.com/vdo_send.asp?Sender=3D100PSI_VDO is = not suitable? I thought this is where you mention in the manual. I did = not see a fuel disclaimer and I think I got to the link from the fuel = link. =20 Chris -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary@lancaironline.net] on = behalf of Tracy [tracy@rotaryaviation.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2010 3:51 PM=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fuel rail pressure My Advanced Flight System EFIS \ EM shipped with a Stewart Warner fuel = pressure sensor. They have had a few failures and now ship with VDO. Go = figure. Strange indeed. I can't find a listing anywhere for a VDO electric = fuel pressure gauge nor can I find a VDO pressure sensor that = specifically states that it is rated for fuel pressure use. The ones I = found now state that they are NOT rated for fuel. Got a part number for = it? Tracy On Tue, Dec 28, 2010 at 3:35 PM, Bobby J. Hughes = wrote: Tracy, My Advanced Flight System EFIS \ EM shipped with a Stewart Warner = fuel pressure sensor. They have had a few failures and now ship with = VDO. Go figure. Bobby -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf Of Tracy=20 Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2010 1:40 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fuel rail pressure Hello Brian, Here is an excerpt from the updated EM2 installation guide. = Note that this assumes that your EM2 has been updated since this change = was developed (last 2 months or so). FUEL PRESSURE SENSOR The EM2 was originally designed around VDO pressure sensors and = the fuel pressure sensor was to be the same type as used for the Oil = Pressure sensor. VDO at some point changed the design of these sensor = and they are no longer safe to use with Fuel (they begin leaking from = the terminal end). The closest substitute is a Stewart Warner 114875. = These are available from Summit Racing as PN SWW-114875. To make = it fully compatible with the EM2 you must wire a 562 ohm resistor from = the sensor output terminal to ground. This can be added near the = sensor or near the EM2, which ever is most convenient. You must also = set the Channel 13(mixture) Low limit value to 1 instead of 0. The = calibration values for the Fuel pressure channel (12) should then be set = to the following values: Scale factor =96 6.922 , LOW END OFFSET =96 0, = SENSOR OFFSET ~ 963 , LOW ALARM LIMIT - ~28 , HIGH ALARM LIMIT -~55.=20 Tracy On Tue, Dec 28, 2010 at 12:10 AM, wrote: Tracy, did you ever find a suitable replacement fuel pressure sender? = What are you using now? Thanks, Brian Trubee -----Original Message----- From: Tracy To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Mon, Dec 27, 2010 4:30 pm Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fuel rail pressure Just for another data point: I installed the fuel pressure regulator prior to the fuel rails in = my 20B installation so there is no fuel flow to flush vapor from the = rails on hot startups. This arrangement is now used on most new cars. = Even with this arrangement I have had no trouble with vapor lock. Even = if it should happen, the EC2/3 primer function would be able to vent = the vapor from the rails. This setup allows the use of a Floscan type fuel flow sensor with = the EM2/3 since there is no return flow from the fuel rails. No big = advantage other than being much easier to calibrate. Tracy On Mon, Dec 27, 2010 at 6:53 PM, wrote: It seems to me that the fuel would have to be pretty hot for the = vapor pressure to exceed 40 psi and cause vapor lock. Running the fuel = pump in such a case would cause coller fuel to flow through the rail and = back to the tank.=20 Brian Trubee -----Original Message----- From: Al Gietzen To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Mon, Dec 27, 2010 3:49 pm Subject: [FlyRotary] Fuel rail pressure Also remember that when you are starting the engine you are = starting it under a load. This is different then in a car config where = in a car you are starting it with no load attached to the crankshaft. = If the fuel rails are getting so hot that they are vaporizing I would = think this would cause an excess pressure in the fuel system and be very = dangerous. This is not a problem I have ever had in a car. What is = causing this besides poor ventilation? The pressure in the fuel rail can never exceed the setting of = the pressure regulator; which should bear about 40 psi engine off. = That=92s true even if you call the e-shaft a crankshaftJ. Al ------=_NextPart_000_0BD5_01CBA6BD.AF3113D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Tracy, UMA has some fuel pressure transducers - = I've used=20 the same one for over 10 years.  Look under the non-TSO Pressure = sensors=20 menu.  I use the one with a range of 0-70 psi with Pressure max of = 290=20 psi.
 
 
http://www.umainstruments.com/
 
Ed

From: Tracy
Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2010 5:26 PM
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fuel rail = pressure

That sensor comes with a tag warning NOT to use for fuel = pressure=20 applications.

Tracy

On Tue, Dec 28, 2010 at 5:11 PM, Chris Barber = <cbarber@texasattorney.net&g= t;=20 wrote:

So, this http://www.egauges.com/vdo_send.asp?Sender=3D100PSI_VDO is=20 not suitable?  I thought this is where you mention in the=20 manual.  I did not see a fuel disclaimer and I think I got to the = link=20 from the fuel link. 

 

Chris

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary@lancaironline.net] on behalf of Tracy = [tracy@rotaryaviation.com]
Sent: = Tuesday,=20 December 28, 2010 3:51 PM=20

To: Rotary motors in = aircraft
Subject:=20 [FlyRotary] Re: Fuel rail pressure

My Advanced = Flight System=20 EFIS \ EM shipped with a Stewart Warner fuel pressure=20 sensor.  They have had a few failures and now ship with VDO. = Go=20 figure.

Strange indeed.  I can't find a = listing=20 anywhere for a VDO electric fuel pressure gauge nor can I find a VDO = pressure=20 sensor that specifically states that it is rated for fuel pressure = use. =20 The ones I found now state that they are NOT rated for fuel.  Got = a part=20 number for it?

Tracy

On Tue, Dec 28, 2010 at 3:35 PM, Bobby J. = Hughes <bhughes@qnsi.net> wrote:
Tracy,
 
My=20 Advanced Flight System EFIS \ EM shipped with a Stewart = Warner fuel=20 pressure sensor.  They have had a few failures and now = ship with=20 VDO. Go figure.
 
Bobby
From: Rotary motors=20 in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of = Tracy=20

Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2010 1:40=20 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: = [FlyRotary]=20 Re: Fuel rail pressure

Hello Brian,
   Here is an excerpt from the = updated=20 EM2 installation guide.   Note that this assumes that your = EM2 has=20 been updated since this change was developed (last 2 months or = so).

FUEL PRESSURE=20 SENSOR

   =20 The EM2 was originally designed around VDO pressure sensors = and the=20 fuel pressure sensor was to be the same type as used for the Oil = Pressure=20 sensor.  VDO at some point changed the design of = these=20 sensor and they are no longer  safe to use with = Fuel (they=20 begin leaking from the terminal end).   The = closest=20 substitute is a Stewart=20 Warner  = 114875.     =20 These are available from Summit Racing as PN =20 SWW-114875.   To make it fully compatible with the = EM2 you=20 must wire a 562 ohm resistor from the sensor output terminal to=20 ground.   This can be added near the sensor = or near=20 the EM2, which ever is most convenient.    = You=20 must also set the Channel 13(mixture)  Low limit = value to=20 1 instead of 0.  The calibration values for the = Fuel=20 pressure channel (12) should then be set to the following=20 values:  Scale factor =96 6.922 , LOW END OFFSET = =96 0, SENSOR=20 OFFSET ~ 963 , LOW ALARM LIMIT - ~28 , HIGH ALARM LIMIT -~55.=20


Tracy

On Tue, Dec 28, 2010 at 12:10 AM, <bktrub@aol.com> wrote:
Tracy,
did you ever find a suitable replacement fuel pressure = sender? What=20 are you using now?
 
Thanks,
Brian Trubee



-----Original Message-----
From: Tracy <tracy@rotaryaviation.com>
To: Rotary = motors in=20 aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Mon, Dec 27, 2010 4:30 pm
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Fuel rail=20 pressure

Just for another data point:

I installed the fuel = pressure=20 regulator prior to the fuel rails in my 20B installation so there = is no=20 fuel flow to flush vapor from the rails on hot startups.  = This=20 arrangement is now used on most new cars.  Even with this = arrangement=20 I have had no trouble with vapor lock.   Even if it = should=20 happen, the EC2/3  primer function would be able to vent the = vapor=20 from the rails.

This setup allows the use of a Floscan type = fuel=20 flow sensor with the EM2/3 since there is no return flow from the = fuel=20 rails.  No big advantage other than being much easier to=20 calibrate.

Tracy

On Mon, Dec 27, 2010 at 6:53 PM, <bktrub@aol.com> wrote:
It seems to me that the fuel would have to be pretty hot = for the=20 vapor pressure to exceed 40 psi and cause vapor lock. Running = the fuel=20 pump in such a case would cause coller fuel to flow through the = rail and=20 back to the tank.
 
Brian Trubee



-----Original=20 Message-----
From: Al Gietzen <ALVentures@cox.net>
To: Rotary motors = in=20 aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: = Mon, Dec 27,=20 2010 3:49 pm
Subject: [FlyRotary] Fuel rail pressure

 
Also remember that when you are = starting the=20 engine you are starting it under a load.  This is different = then in=20 a car config where in a car you are starting it with no load = attached to=20 the crankshaft.  If the fuel rails are getting so hot that = they are=20 vaporizing I would think this would cause an excess pressure in = the fuel=20 system and be very dangerous.  This is not a problem I have = ever=20 had in a car.  What is causing this besides poor=20 ventilation?
The = pressure=20 in the fuel rail can never exceed the setting of the pressure = regulator;=20 which should bear about 40 psi engine off. That=92s true even if = you call=20 the e-shaft a crankshaftJ.
Al
 




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