X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail-iw0-f180.google.com ([209.85.214.180] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.11) with ESMTPS id 4655925 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 27 Dec 2010 16:51:06 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.214.180; envelope-from=doug@cartertechnology.com Received: by iwn37 with SMTP id 37so12382238iwn.25 for ; Mon, 27 Dec 2010 13:50:31 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.231.38.6 with SMTP id z6mr12774058ibd.8.1293486631320; Mon, 27 Dec 2010 13:50:31 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.34.65 with HTTP; Mon, 27 Dec 2010 13:50:31 -0800 (PST) X-Originating-IP: [139.55.113.226] In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2010 16:50:31 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Chris - Update needed From: Doug Carter To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0022152d5d692e7cce04986b5322 --0022152d5d692e7cce04986b5322 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Also remember that when you are starting the engine you are starting it under a load. This is different then in a car config where in a car you are starting it with no load attached to the crankshaft. If the fuel rails are getting so hot that they are vaporizing I would think this would cause an excess pressure in the fuel system and be very dangerous. This is not a problem I have ever had in a car. What is causing this besides poor ventilation? On Mon, Dec 27, 2010 at 4:08 PM, Rino wrote: > The only thing our engines do not have is a choke. I agree that we have > to compensate for the lack of a choke, that's it. They probably have that > stuff on today's aircraft engines, not on car engines. > > Rino > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Bill Bradburry > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Sent:* Monday, December 27, 2010 1:23 PM > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Chris - Update needed > > Before cars had all the automated gobblededo to make them start by > turning the ignition key, they had spark advance levers and manual chokes. > They only started when you held your tongue just right. Our engines are set > up with the original manual stuff. You will have to learn how to start it. > Each setup will be slightly different. > > > > I doubt anybody can just power up and hit the starter and have a start with > this setup. Stuff has to be done. Prime?, Mixture?, Cold Start? > > YMMV > > > > Bill B > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] *On > Behalf Of *Rino > > *Sent:* Monday, December 27, 2010 9:35 AM > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Chris - Update needed > > > > Chris, > > > > It is a car engine, it should start like a car engine, you turn the > ignition key and it starts --- every time. If not something must be changed > to make it so. That is the way mine starts and I have no secret > technique. I think one should not have to remember a complex process every > time he starts the engine. That is one of the reasons I choosed the rotary > to the Lycoming and I am glad I did! > > > > Rino Lacombe > > Renesis powered Glass Goose > > > > > > Chris, > > For hot starts you might try (1) pump on (2) EC2 on (3) one prime (4) > injectors disabled (5) Starter (6) injectors on > > after it fires) (you still may have to fiddle with the mixture with this > method)..............Might be worth a try.................<:) > > > Kelly Troyer > *"DYKE DELTA JD2"** **(Eventually)* > > "13B ROTARY"_ Engine > "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2 > "MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold > > "TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo > > > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* Chris Barber > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Sent:* Sat, December 25, 2010 5:20:43 PM > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Chris - Update needed > > I was hesitant to provide info as I was having oil pressure issues again > and I dreaded the idea of posting having to pull the engine again. I could > just hear Al Wicks keyboard tuning up. :-) > > Anyway, I started basic trouble shooting, had removed the prop preparing to > pull the engine off. Before I did so I figured it would be less messy to > drain the pan (gee, ya think?). When I did so I only had about one quart > come out. Odd? > > I added oil, removed the hose from the cooler and cranked her over remotely > and oil flowed strong and in quantity. > > So I checked and secured my hose connections, added about five quarts of > Royal Purple and cranked her up sans prop, confidant that I was comfortable > enough with the engine to keep her from over spinning. > > I checked the manual pressure gauge I had attached and it was pegged at 80, > up from 20. Reinstalled my EC2 electric gauge and got the same result. > > Now, this turbo with out the prop is way quieter. Without the prop it > produces a low throaty rumble that say POWER. Except for the exhaust (rich > mixture due to cold temp), noise and spinning prop flange you could not tell > it was running. It was dead smooth. It was kind of weird walking were the > prop usually is while it was running. Not a good habit. > > All three starts produced good oil press at around 2600 fpm. > > Check the basics (or so I hope and this isn't some new anomolie). > > Mark, the ecu is back in. The engine seems to be running strong and smooth. > I am developing just a hair over 6300 rpm static at about 34 map. That is > with the IVO inflight adjustable set at it's finest setting of about 45 > degree. > > Another distraction is my EGT readings working. I have discussed this > previously and still need to assess it along with bad fuel pressure > readings. > > My current project, if the oil pressure is ok, is to develop a hot start > routine. Currently it wants full rich and a few shots of prime for a cold > start. Cold it starts easily. > > However, warm start is a pita. I seem to be having luck with severe lean > mixture until it catches and fires up. Otherwise, it seems just about to > catch, but doesn't quite do so. It may take a few attempt and excessive > cranking, and of course holding my tongue just right. Also, what seems to > have made a big difference too and making warm cranks better is two new > batteries with a combined cranking amps of 710, up from what was probably > only about 350 ish CAmps before. > > Other than that I am working on the devil in the details. Geesh there are a > lot of details, but at last hopefully it is not proof of concept, but flight > ready. > > Questions?????? :-) > > Sent from my iPhone 4 > > On Dec 25, 2010, at 3:41 PM, "Mark Steitle" wrote: > > > Chris, > > > > You've been silent for too long. I was curious if you ever got your EC-2 > back from being checked & upgraded? If so, was that the problem? How about > a status update? > > > > Mark > > -- > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > Archive and UnSub: > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html > > --0022152d5d692e7cce04986b5322 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Also remember that when you are starting the engine you are starting it und= er a load. =A0This is different then in a car config where in a car you are= starting it with no load attached to the crankshaft. =A0If the fuel rails = are getting so hot that they are vaporizing I would think this would cause = an excess pressure in the fuel system and be very dangerous. =A0This is not= a problem I have ever had in a car. =A0What is causing this besides poor v= entilation?

On Mon, Dec 27, 2010 at 4:08 PM, Rino <lacombr@nbnet.nb.ca<= /a>> wrote:
The only thing our engines do not have= is a=20 choke.=A0 I agree that we have to compensate for the lack of=A0a choke,=20 that's it.=A0 They probably have that stuff on today's aircraft eng= ines, not=20 on car engines.
=A0
Rino
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monda= y, December 27, 2010 1:23=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Chris - Up= date=20 needed

Before cars had al= l=20 the automated gobblededo to make them start by turning the ignition key, = they=20 had spark advance levers and manual chokes.=A0 They only started when you= =20 held your tongue just right.=A0 Our engines are set up with the original= =20 manual stuff.=A0 You will have to learn how to start it.=A0 Each setup=20 will be slightly different.

=A0<= /p>

I doubt anybody ca= n=20 just power up and hit the starter and have a start with this setup.=A0=20 Stuff has to be done.=A0 Prime?, Mixture?, Cold=20 Start?

YMMV=

=A0<= /p>

Bill=20 B

=A0<= /p>

From:=20 Rotary motors in aircraft=20 [mailto:= flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On=20 Behalf Of Rino


Sent:= Monday, December 27, 2010 9:35=20 AM
= To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subjec= t: [FlyRotary] Re: Chris - Update=20 needed

=A0

Chris,

=A0

It is a car engine, it should=20 start like a car engine, you turn the ignition key and it starts --- ever= y=20 time.=A0 If not something must be changed to make it so.=A0 That is the= =20 way mine starts and I have no secret technique.=A0=A0 I think one should= =20 not have to remember a complex process every time he starts the engine.= =A0=20 That is one of the reasons I choosed the rotary to the Lycoming and I am = glad=20 I did!

=A0

Rino=20 Lacombe

Renesis powered Glass=20 Goose

=A0

=A0

Chris,

=A0=A0 For hot starts you=20 might try (1) pump on (2) EC2 on (3) one prime (4) injectors disabled (= 5)=20 Starter (6) injectors on

after it fires) (you still may=20 have to fiddle with the mixture with this method)..............Might be= =20 worth a=20 try.................<:)=A0
=A0

Kelly=20 Troyer
"DYKE DELTA=20 JD2" (Eventually)

"13B ROTARY"_=20 Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"MISTRAL"_Backplate= /Oil=20 Manifold

"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50=20 Turbo

=A0

=A0

<= font size=3D"2" face=3D"Tahoma">

From:= =20 Chris Barber=20 <cbar= ber@texasattorney.net>
To: Rotary=20 motors in aircraft=20 <fl= yrotary@lancaironline.net>
Se= nt: Sat, December 25, 2010 5:20:43=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotar= y] Re:=20 Chris - Update needed

I was hesitant to provide info as I was having=20 oil pressure issues again and I dreaded the idea of posting having to p= ull=20 the engine again. I could just hear Al Wicks keyboard tuning up.=20 :-)

Anyway, I started basic trouble shooting, had removed the pr= op=20 preparing to pull the engine off. Before I did so I figured it would be= less=20 messy to drain the pan (gee, ya think?). When I did so I only had about= one=20 quart come out. Odd?

I added oil, removed the hose from the cool= er=20 and cranked her over remotely and oil flowed strong and in=20 quantity.

So I checked and secured my hose connections, added ab= out=20 five quarts of Royal Purple and cranked her up sans prop, confidant tha= t I=20 was comfortable enough with the engine to keep her from over spinning.= =20

I checked the manual pressure gauge I had attached and it was p= egged=20 at 80, up from 20. Reinstalled my EC2 electric gauge and got the same= =20 result.

Now, this turbo with out the prop is way quieter. Withou= t the=20 prop it produces a low throaty rumble that say POWER. Except for the ex= haust=20 (rich mixture due to cold temp), noise and spinning prop flange you cou= ld=20 not tell it was running. It was dead smooth. It was kind of weird walki= ng=20 were the prop usually is while it was running. Not a good habit.
All=20 three starts produced good oil press at around 2600 fpm.

Check t= he=20 basics (or so I hope and this isn't some new anomolie).

Mar= k, the=20 ecu is back in. The engine seems to be running strong and smooth. I am= =20 developing just a hair over 6300 rpm static at about 34 map. That is wi= th=20 the IVO inflight adjustable set at it's finest setting of about 45 = degree.=20

Another distraction is my EGT readings working.=A0 I have=20 discussed this previously and still need to assess it along with bad fu= el=20 pressure readings.

My current project, if the oil pressure is o= k, is=20 to develop a hot start routine. Currently it wants full rich and a few = shots=20 of prime for a cold start. Cold it starts easily.

However, warm= =20 start is a pita. I seem to be having luck with severe lean mixture unti= l it=20 catches and fires up. Otherwise, it seems just about to catch, but does= n't=20 quite do so. It may take a few attempt and excessive cranking, and of c= ourse=20 holding my tongue just right. Also, what seems to have made a big diffe= rence=20 too and making warm cranks better is two new batteries with a combined= =20 cranking amps of 710, up from what was probably only about 350 ish CAmp= s=20 before.=A0

Other than that I am working on the devil in the=20 details. Geesh there are a lot of details, but at last hopefully it is = not=20 proof of concept, but flight ready.=A0

Questions??????=20 :-)

Sent from my iPhone 4

On Dec 25, 2010, at 3:41 PM, &q= uot;Mark=20 Steitle" <msteitle@gmail.com>=20 wrote:

> Chris,=A0
>
> You've been silent f= or too=20 long.=A0 I was curious if you ever got your EC-2 back from being checke= d=20 & upgraded?=A0 If so, was that the problem?=A0 How about a status= =20 update?=A0
>
> Mark

--
Homepage:=A0=20 http://www.flyr= otary.com/
Archive and UnSub:=A0=20 http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.htm= l


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