X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from [64.129.170.194] (HELO VIRCOM1.fcdata.private) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.11) with ESMTP id 4651660 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 22 Dec 2010 20:27:06 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=64.129.170.194; envelope-from=cbarber@texasattorney.net Received: from FCD-MAIL06.FCDATA.PRIVATE ([fe80::697f:d6aa:b87:78d8]) by FCD-MAIL05.FCDATA.PRIVATE ([fe80::809d:a06e:5913:452e%15]) with mapi id 14.01.0218.012; Wed, 22 Dec 2010 19:23:31 -0600 From: Chris Barber To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Re: 13B Turbo Manifold Thread-Topic: [FlyRotary] Re: 13B Turbo Manifold Thread-Index: AQHLojiUhxaFDM7RzUGiWs0oO+iXlJOtOcHx Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2010 01:26:21 +0000 Message-ID: <2D41F9BF3B5F9842B164AF93214F3D3034CBDB1E@FCD-MAIL06.FCDATA.PRIVATE> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [98.196.202.145] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_2D41F9BF3B5F9842B164AF93214F3D3034CBDB1EFCDMAIL06FCDATA_" MIME-Version: 1.0 --_000_2D41F9BF3B5F9842B164AF93214F3D3034CBDB1EFCDMAIL06FCDATA_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Not sure of the manufacturer, but it is similar to the one pictured. We cu= t it up pretty good and kinda reassembled it to what we needed. My welding= skills are almost non existent (gas welding class two weeks ago sponsored = by EAA here in Houston is about it....good class though), however, one of m= y airport neighbors is a skilled welder and tigged it up for me to my speck= s. We added some SS for the waste gate to come a bit behind the engine, nea= r the redrive and lowered the turbo mounting position. The Mistral intake = sticks out right where many turbo's would usually go, so we had to get it l= ower and a bit further back. I "think" I turned the original header upside= down to get it low enough, then raised it (not lowered really, as stated a= bove) so it would not be too low to have the return oil flow into the stock= turbo return. I will try to find photo's of the process. Not sure if I can find them as i= t was at least one computer ago. I will also try to take some pix. I may = be removing the engine this weekend to address a couple of (hopefully) fina= l issues. This should allow easy access to some photos. Chris ________________________________ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary@lancaironline.net] on behalf of = Kelly Troyer [keltro@att.net] Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2010 6:29 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 13B Turbo Manifold Chris, Have any photos of your header and do you recall from what company you purc= hased from or the manufacturer (brand name).............. Kelly Troyer "DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually) "13B ROTARY"_ Engine "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2 "MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold "TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo ________________________________ From: Chris Barber To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Wed, December 22, 2010 5:18:29 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 13B Turbo Manifold I started with a similar header but have had it heavily modified to fit bel= ow the Mistal intake on my pusher. Sent from my iPhone 4 On Dec 22, 2010, at 3:14 PM, "Bill Bradburry" > wrote: Those SS headers are actually pretty cheap. I wonder what they would charg= e to build a header that goes in the wrong direction like is required for t= ractor planes. Bill B ________________________________ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Beh= alf Of Kelly Troyer Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2010 4:10 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 13B Turbo Manifold Ernest you make my head hurt !!...............Now I have to be a "Metallurg= ist"...............<:) Kelly Troyer "DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually) "13B ROTARY"_ Engine "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2 "MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold "TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo ________________________________ From: Ernest Christley > To: Rotary motors in aircraft > Sent: Wed, December 22, 2010 2:35:58 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 13B Turbo Manifold Kelly Troyer wrote: > Ernest, > Not sure what you mean by "Welds not cleaned up"...........All I see= on these "TIG" welds is > a slight discoloration at the edge of the weld bead caused by the arc hea= t.. The first link of a Google search on "stainless steel welding corrosion" wa= s http://www.mcnallyinst= itute.com/04-html/4-1.html From that site: INTERGRANULAR CORROSION All austenitic stainless steels (the 300 series, the types that "work harde= n") contain a small amount of carbon in solution in the austenite. Carbon i= s precipitated out at the grain boundaries, of the steel, in the temperatur= e range of 1050=B0 F. (565=B0 C) to 1600=B0 F. (870=B0 C.). This is a typic= al temperature range during the welding of stainless steel. This carbon combines with the chrome in the stainless steel to form chromiu= m carbide, starving the adjacent areas of the chrome they need for corrosio= n protection. In the presence of some strong corrosives an electrochemical = action is initiated between the chrome rich and chrome poor areas with the = areas low in chrome becoming attacked. The grain boundaries are then dissol= ved and become non existent. There are three ways to combat this: * Anneal the stainless after it has been heated in this sensitive range= . This means bringing it up to the proper annealing temperature and then qu= ickly cooling it down through the sensitive temperature range to prevent th= e carbides from forming. * When possible use low carbon content stainless if you intend to do an= y welding on it. A carbon content of less than 0.3% will not precipitate in= to a continuous film of chrome carbide at the grain boundaries. 316L is as = good example of a low carbon stainless steel. * Alloy the metal with a strong carbide former. The best is columbium, = but sometimes titanium is used. The carbon will now form columbium carbide = rather than going after the chrome to form chrome carbide. The material is = now said to be "stabilized" They could have used a filler that made post treatment unnecessary, or they= could have annealed it. The link you gave says it is made of T304. Depen= ding on which T304, the carbon ranges from .03 to .08%, so it may not be an= issue at all. -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html --_000_2D41F9BF3B5F9842B164AF93214F3D3034CBDB1EFCDMAIL06FCDATA_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Not sure of the manufacturer, but it is similar to the one p= ictured.  We cut it up pretty good and kinda reasse= mbled it to what we needed.  My welding skills are almost non exi= stent (gas welding class two weeks ago sponsored by EAA<= a> here in Houston is about it....good class though), however, one of my airp= ort neighbors is a skilled welder and tigged= it up for me to my specks. We added some SS for the waste gate= to come a bit behind the engine, near the redrive and lowered the turbo mounting position.  The Mistral intake sticks o= ut right where many turbo's would usually go, so we had = to get it lower and a bit further back.  I "think" I tu= rned the original header upside down to get it low enough, then raised it (not lowered really, as stated above) so it would not be too low= to have the return oil flow into the stock turbo return.

 

I will try to find photo's of the process. Not sure if I can find them a= s it was at least one computer ago.  I will also try to take some pix.=   I may be removing the engine this weekend to address a couple of (ho= pefully) final issues.  This should allow easy access= to some photos.

 

Chris

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary@= lancaironline.net] on behalf of Kelly Troyer [keltro@att.net]
Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2010 6:29 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 13B Turbo Manifold

Chris,
Have any photos of your header and do you recall from what compan= y you purchased
from or the manufacturer (brand name)..............
 

Kelly Troyer
"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)

"13B ROTARY"_ Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold

"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo


From: Chris Barber <cbar= ber@texasattorney.net>
To: Rotary motors in aircra= ft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Wed, December 22, 201= 0 5:18:29 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 13= B Turbo Manifold

I started with a similar header but have had it heavily modified to fi= t below the Mistal intake on my pusher. 

Sent from my iPhone 4

On Dec 22, 2010, at 3:14 PM, "Bill Bradburry" <bbradburry@= bellsouth.net> wrote:

Those SS header= s are actually pretty cheap.  I wonder what they would charge to build= a header that goes in the wrong direction like is required for tractor planes. 

&= nbsp;

Bill B

&= nbsp;

From:= Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.n= et] On Behalf Of Kelly Troyer Sent: Wednesday, December 2= 2, 2010 4:10 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircra= ft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 13= B Turbo Manifold

 

Ernest you make my head hurt !!............= ...Now I have to be a "Metallurgist"...............<:)
 

Kelly Troyer
"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)<= /b>=

"13B ROTARY"_ Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold

"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo

 

 

From:= Ernest Christley <echristley@att.net>
To: Rotary motors in aircra= ft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Wed, December 22, 201= 0 2:35:58 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 13= B Turbo Manifold

Kelly Troyer wrote:
> Ernest,
>      Not sure what you mean by "Welds not cleaned = up"...........All I see on these "TIG" welds is
> a slight discoloration at the edge of the weld bead caused by the arc = heat..

The first link of a Google search on "stainless steel welding corrosio= n" was http://www.mcnallyinstitute.com/04-html/4-1.html

From that site:

INTERGRANULAR CORROSION

All austenitic stainless steels (the 300 series, the types that "work = harden") contain a small amount of carbon in solution in the austenite= . Carbon is precipitated out at the grain boundaries, of the steel, in the = temperature range of 1050=B0 F. (565=B0 C) to 1600=B0 F. (870=B0 C.). This is a typical temperature range during the wel= ding of stainless steel.

This carbon combines with the chrome in the stainless steel to form chromiu= m carbide, starving the adjacent areas of the chrome they need for corrosio= n protection. In the presence of some strong corrosives an electrochemical = action is initiated between the chrome rich and chrome poor areas with the areas low in chrome becoming at= tacked. The grain boundaries are then dissolved and become non existent. Th= ere are three ways to combat this:

    * Anneal the stainless after it has been heated in this sensi= tive range. This means bringing it up to the proper annealing temperature a= nd then quickly cooling it down through the sensitive temperature range to = prevent the carbides from forming.
    * When possible use low carbon content stainless if you inten= d to do any welding on it. A carbon content of less than 0.3% will not prec= ipitate into a continuous film of chrome carbide at the grain boundaries. 3= 16L is as good example of a low carbon stainless steel.
    * Alloy the metal with a strong carbide former. The best is c= olumbium, but sometimes titanium is used. The carbon will now form columbiu= m carbide rather than going after the chrome to form chrome carbide. The ma= terial is now said to be "stabilized"

They could have used a filler that made post treatment unnecessary, or they= could have annealed it.  The link you gave says it is made of T304.&n= bsp; Depending on which T304, the carbon ranges from .03 to .08%, so it may= not be an issue at all.


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