X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from web83902.mail.sp1.yahoo.com ([69.147.92.99] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.9) with SMTP id 4483295 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 27 Sep 2010 14:13:50 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=69.147.92.99; envelope-from=keltro@att.net Received: (qmail 66260 invoked by uid 60001); 27 Sep 2010 18:12:48 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=att.net; s=s1024; t=1285611168; bh=/KT78E65K8lmgPWDkOkvULBBzyReixc2EXRLWP7vTvo=; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=djBGTzChP4kHZyCdebqJk/NMAvECTC4Lq6HtSUWcPDryUuQWJ0OdNQsuW2YoVPvdTcANqwISSJdntsU+XXI+gDw7+rzgVKikH9nFkDm0WjDgg2EVd/Xc7yR6uv7FXhYPTMo3irwej4vY6xvoXjEu0X980ujGguv5gHTv5QqmBI8= DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=att.net; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=02CNdjNKreuQ7zJgeElZAN0sPJGhyf9+m9/upLemBIo2Ec/nV9lczBPhU4M696cqYNjzm4DeyeLXe+NjA2TBww006vQVrvo5Z9gnhevsg4NQGD7gV0fEfuvunfqtRSEp18yo+AV1cjlxrkG00K+btfT/YtbIDTUlBFs85AKxnxU=; Message-ID: <694550.62939.qm@web83902.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: bxVQ5xoVM1lqhxFDu2Zl7D8TrL1k0ab6Yj4ASmECbMK806t qrq9DyS5hsBozyI.QKbc3jc4rWj49nkb0._LGaqStq_mdpHuVebt.CK6jV7E 003gyhd7kk2LkORv2g2PsSW1pGSZPwZKQtHPdvKyN9YPaj5Uvn3WKbTgjt5G bR7t_MkxOEYX6o7HB5hInKLSDcBcW2hmr.mtyY2XBqOHsoMKzbI1CLlL9zYf VXw1NAItZqCE76qlJd1m8l_qXKMMFBCVJs_GgZD6ppV5AwzBoeNjXHiMbLp0 YqaBc7W2ANhNdxT1ppFYrhhMixrijJQ-- Received: from [208.114.33.34] by web83902.mail.sp1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 27 Sep 2010 11:12:48 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/497 YahooMailWebService/0.8.105.279950 References: Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 11:12:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Kelly Troyer Subject: Re: Modified Cooling System To: Rotary motors in aircraft In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1409341463-1285611168=:62939" --0-1409341463-1285611168=:62939 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks Lynn,=0A=A0=A0=A0 In other words don't bother for our lightly stress= ed aircraft =0Ause.................=0A=A0Kelly Troyer=0A"Dyke Delta"_13B RO= TARY Engine=0A"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=0A"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold =0A=0A= =0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: "Lehanover@aol.com" =0ATo: Rotary motors in aircraft =0ASent: Mon, September 27, 2010 10:31:47 AM=0ASubject: [FlyRotary] Re: Mo= dified Cooling System=0A=0AIn a message dated 9/26/2010 11:53:28 P.M. Easte= rn Standard Time, keltro@att.net =0Awrites:=0ALynn,=0A>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= =A0 This is a=A0four Rotor made from=A0two 13B engines by "Granny's Speed S= hop" =0A>http://www.grannysspeedshop.com/=A0=A0in=0A>Concrete, WA..........= ....Interesting but to me the most interesting thing is =0A>the modified co= oling system.........Their website=0A>has a lot of info on how the two engi= nes were coupled together but they have yet =0A>to provide what internal mo= difications were=0A>made to direct coolent flow in the proper directions af= ter it is connected to =0A>the center housing.........This system would see= m=0A>to address the fact that the rear rotor runs somewhat hotter than the = front =0A>rotor in the stock cooling system.........=0A>=A0=0A>=A0=A0=A0=A0= =A0=A0 I am interested in your opinion as to if=A0the benefit would be wort= h the =0A>trouble to implement such a cooling system ?.....=0A>I have heard= that the rear rotor tends to fail more often than the front perhaps =0A>be= cause it runs hotter..........Has anyone to=0A>your knowledge ever document= ed how much hotter the rear rotor runs as opposed to =0A>the front rotor ?.= ............=0A>=A0=0A>Kelly Troyer=0A>=A0=0AThe cooling system change woul= d require that the web between water in and water =0Aout of the front iron = be removed, to allow water to flow around the front iron =0Aand be removed= =A0from the center iron on the exhaust side. You would have to do =0Athat f= or the rear engine where the adaptor plate blocks the water pump land =0Aar= ea.=0A=0AWhy he did it in the front engine escapes me. Typical failures in = high output NA =0Aengines is rotor bearing failures in the front rotor due = to lower oil pressure =0Athan the rear rotor bearing. The front main and ro= tor bearing is fed from the =0Adowel gallery=A0 that ends=A0with a number o= f drilled 90 degree turns. The rear main =0Aand rotor bearings get the stra= ight shot from the filter adaptor land. So an =0Aadditional oil line is ins= talled to take oil from=A0a plate mounted below the =0Afilter adaptor to th= e lateral drilling into the main bearing gallery in the =0Afront iron. This= is usually a dash 10 line, and the run through the dowel =0Agallery is lef= t intact to more than double the cross section of the supply.=0A=0A=A0=A0In= boosted engines it is the rear rotor bearing failing from detonation from = =0Ahigher heat in the rear rotor housing coolant and rear iron. In high boo= st =0Astreet racers and dyno racers, you see the top dowels shearing off an= d or, the =0Adowel gallery hole breaking open and splitting the rear iron a= ll the way down to =0Athe stationary gear. This is from the whole engine tw= isting in opposition to the =0Atorque being generated. The engine is twisti= ng in the opposite direction to the =0Acrank rotation. To cure this, you ad= d dowels along the plugs and around the =0Aexhaust area, or to every case b= olt hole. Or a combination of dowels and =0Aoversized case bolts in reamed = holes. Also mounting the engine by its bell =0Ahousing face rather than the= front cover as in the 12A or the center irons. =A0=0A=0ADetonation is char= ge temperature dependant, so coolant and oil temperatures must =0Abe under = control. =0A=0A=0ACosworth puts the water into Ford style 4 cylinder blocks= through the core =0Asupport plugs and takes it out through the head. Smoke= y Yanick =A0Did the same =0Athing in Chevy V-8s. Water into the core suppor= t plugs and out through the heads =0Athat were lined with water glass so th= ey could no be overcooled. Smokey liked =0Ahigh cylinder head temps. He als= o found a way to prevent detonation at very high =0Acharge temperatures. No= body has uncovered his secrete yet. But these systems are =0Aused to contro= l the round shape of the cylinders with the coolest water going =0Athere fi= rst, then cooling the heads last. See Smokey's hot vapor cycle engines. =0A= GM could have had his secrete for 30 years now, but thought they could figu= re it =0Aout, so refused to buy from him the greatest improvement in the IC= engine since =0Ait was invented.=A0=0A=0ANA rotaries used in aircraft are = unlikely to fail for any reason based on =0Adesign. The dismal cooling syst= ems installed and the thinking that 200 water and =0Amore than 220 oil temp= eratures are OK is just not the case. =0A=0AThe number on the temp gage, is= a vague average of the engines temperature. But =0Amost of that came from = the aluminum around the leading plug and the lower area =0Aaround the exhau= st cycle. Some of the cooling water picks up nearly zero =0Atemperature, an= d some of=A0it picks up too much and boils for a short time.=0A=0ASo the ga= ge is showing you a mixture of water or coolant that has been way too =0Aho= t, and some that was heated very little by the engine. So, the gage did not= =0Ashow you the highest coolant temps, and some of the coolant was heated = by =0Aadjacent coolant and did nothing to (directly) cool the engine. I wou= ld not slow =0Athe water pump speed. The extra velocity helps make turbulen= ce and scrubs the =0Aheated metals better than slow moving coolant. Note th= e diagonal dents in the =0Aflat tubes of a radiator. Also to create turbule= nce and scrub the chilled =0Aboundary layer off of=A0 the tube surface and = allow hotter coolant to contact it. =0AA dash of dish soap or Redline Water= Wetter keeps the oil scum and rust from =0Ainsulating the engines metals fr= om coolant.=0A=0AIf I were building a drag racing engine I would build part= of his system but put =0Athe cold water into the rotor housing between the= spark plugs where the highest =0Aheat is found. Or just below the leading = plug.=0A=0ABut none of this is required for aircraft use.=0A=0ALynn E. Hano= ver --0-1409341463-1285611168=:62939 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=0A
Thanks Lynn,
=0A
    In oth= er words don't bother for our lightly stressed aircraft use................= .
 
Kelly Troyer
"Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine
"RWS"_RD= 1C/EC2/EM2
"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold =0A

=0A

=0A<= DIV style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZ= E: 12pt">=0A
=0AFrom: "Lehanover@aol.com" <Lehanover@aol.c= om>
To: Rotary motors= in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Mon, September 27, 2010 10:31:47 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Modifie= d Cooling System

=0A
=0A
In a message dated 9/26/2010 11:53:28 P.= M. Eastern Standard Time, keltro@att.net writes:
=0A
=0A
Lynn,
= =0A
        This is a=  four Rotor made from two 13B engines by "Granny's Speed Shop" ht= tp://www.grannysspeedshop.com/  in
=0A
Concrete, WA..............Interesting but to me the most interesting t= hing is the modified cooling system.........Their website
=0Ahas a lot of info on how the two engines were coupled tog= ether but they have yet to provide what internal modifications were<= /DIV>=0A
made to direct coolent flow in the proper direc= tions after it is connected to the center housing.........This system would= seem
=0A
to address the fact that the rear = rotor runs somewhat hotter than the front rotor in the stock cooling system= .........
=0A
 
=0A
       I am interested in your op= inion as to if the benefit would be worth the trouble to implement suc= h a cooling system ?.....
=0A
I have heard t= hat the rear rotor tends to fail more often than the front perhaps because = it runs hotter..........Has anyone to
=0A
yo= ur knowledge ever documented how much hotter the rear rotor runs as opposed= to the front rotor ?.............
=0A
 
=0A
Kelly Troyer
=0A
 
=0A
=0A
The cooling system change would require that= the web between water in and water out of the front iron be removed, to al= low water to flow around the front iron and be removed from the center= iron on the exhaust side. You would have to do that for the rear engine wh= ere the adaptor plate blocks the water pump land area.
=0A
 <= /DIV>=0A
Why he did it in the front engine escapes me. Typical failures= in high output NA engines is rotor bearing failures in the front rotor due= to lower oil pressure than the rear rotor bearing. The front main and roto= r bearing is fed from the dowel gallery  that ends with a number = of drilled 90 degree turns. The rear main and rotor bearings get the straig= ht shot from the filter adaptor land. So an additional oil line is installe= d to take oil from a plate mounted below the filter adaptor to the lat= eral drilling into the main bearing gallery in the front iron. This is usua= lly a dash 10 line, and the run through the dowel gallery is left intact to= more than double the cross section of the supply.
=0A
 =0A
  In boosted engines it is the rear rotor bearing failin= g from detonation from higher heat in the rear rotor housing coolant and re= ar iron. In high boost street racers and dyno racers, you see the top dowel= s shearing off and or, the dowel gallery hole breaking open and splitting t= he rear iron all the way down to the stationary gear. This is from the whol= e engine twisting in opposition to the torque being generated. The engine i= s twisting in the opposite direction to the crank rotation. To cure this, y= ou add dowels along the plugs and around the exhaust area, or to every case= bolt hole. Or a combination of dowels and oversized case bolts in reamed h= oles. Also mounting the engine by its bell housing face rather than the fro= nt cover as in the 12A or the center irons.  
=0A
 =0A
Detonation is charge temperature dependant, so coolant and oil tem= peratures must be under control.
=0A
 
=0A
Cosworth= puts the water into Ford style 4 cylinder blocks through the core support = plugs and takes it out through the head. Smokey Yanick  Did the same t= hing in Chevy V-8s. Water into the core support plugs and out through the h= eads that were lined with water glass so they could no be overcooled. Smoke= y liked high cylinder head temps. He also found a way to prevent detonation= at very high charge temperatures. Nobody has uncovered his secrete yet. Bu= t these systems are used to control the round shape of the cylinders with t= he coolest water going there first, then cooling the heads last. See Smokey= 's hot vapor cycle engines. GM could have had his secrete for 30 years now,= but thought they could figure it out, so refused to buy from him the great= est improvement in the IC engine since it was invented. 
=0A
=  
=0A
NA rotaries used in aircraft are unlikely to fail for a= ny reason based on design. The dismal cooling systems installed and the thi= nking that 200 water and more than 220 oil temperatures are OK is just not = the case.
=0A
The number on the temp gage, is a vague average of = the engines temperature. But most of that came from the aluminum around the= leading plug and the lower area around the exhaust cycle. Some of the cool= ing water picks up nearly zero temperature, and some of it picks up to= o much and boils for a short time.
=0A
 
=0A
So the = gage is showing you a mixture of water or coolant that has been way too hot= , and some that was heated very little by the engine. So, the gage did not = show you the highest coolant temps, and some of the coolant was heated by a= djacent coolant and did nothing to (directly) cool the engine. I would not = slow the water pump speed. The extra velocity helps make turbulence and scr= ubs the heated metals better than slow moving coolant. Note the diagonal de= nts in the flat tubes of a radiator. Also to create turbulence and scrub th= e chilled boundary layer off of  the tube surface and allow hotter coo= lant to contact it. A dash of dish soap or Redline WaterWetter keeps the oi= l scum and rust from insulating the engines metals from coolant.
=0A 
=0A
If I were building a drag racing engine I would buil= d part of his system but put the cold water into the rotor housing between = the spark plugs where the highest heat is found. Or just below the leading = plug.
=0A
 
=0A
But none of this is required for air= craft use.
=0A
 
=0A
Lynn E. Hanover
--0-1409341463-1285611168=:62939--