X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from web55404.mail.re4.yahoo.com ([206.190.58.198] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.9) with SMTP id 4472410 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 19 Sep 2010 08:39:42 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=206.190.58.198; envelope-from=plumberben@yahoo.com Received: (qmail 93016 invoked by uid 60001); 19 Sep 2010 12:39:06 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s1024; t=1284899946; bh=35NhfwhZxAtldWktTavRBsxgIZS2yEeFL+ZNVBHRCR0=; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=lpzsAnNhYGBzuu5WuVYagGtJg6C3CrW4f6+/25dz+KJ0cX0sT1qW5eSJLPLFQBqkczWRtemv9o3+JAN/ulDFrhFJ0oa8btzOd/wsU3+Z7WT1P7ndZh2snbjH1Pk4LokO07SGRUoKyDBFJYVNx+sW49G5k6/OZaDIKpbdIng4HZ0= DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=WjUYb5i2Xf6TVr6l6et+f38X4ZnvIUTTefQAMCvXMPCtxNSMQCOpg3gsn2qMwXgytlXsaDg0+aODrvGCtlZI7Ml8aT0eYGZiG4rp2fnG4x6XX/C8EkbeV1OHxOk8WU/gi8hSucp3N6ANVjJnd9GOG2odcepDTb3FCm+ac8JXQRg=; Message-ID: <808503.92901.qm@web55404.mail.re4.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: 5AUwfusVM1lNar6xo1LC4B6FGZWttL84llCrp8xDNHP4nxc QF_cgkeJ9W1kY22XpxGyHOrZHXK.irogmyzjw..yD0GTBSo9MweQIqW8YiqV VOAfrlPtmCy1Rj2nD2GumcIWgNsCwoeR0h5GWL4ZuaTYznKtuHZcIvYUy7E4 o.7gZBxp9d.P2LUzUOFqmPlinISGTpncgydWQvuF3YGbKYzIcMs0aGLAPsRG QjhsUasR5XGx.Sc8JRWvCjarKyVMHpqDSkcsFMBF01JBAOq4.z7a.Hu3OD9h XpruFcwkwWJ54EkPRtgCBTHaa..caBDG6k_PffXkyzcBtrVRg.kOks7jTAVq rShPgBaaRtDm3h45Az9E24drcW1LTpc9FGVqk Received: from [198.229.215.133] by web55404.mail.re4.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 19 Sep 2010 05:39:06 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailClassic/11.4.9 YahooMailWebService/0.8.105.279950 Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2010 05:39:06 -0700 (PDT) From: Ben Schneider Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Watch that psru oil seal To: Rotary motors in aircraft In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-15769397-1284899946=:92901" --0-15769397-1284899946=:92901 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Lynn, =A0=A0Am I reading you right in saying that it it was crankcase pressure, n= ot oil pressure. And to relieve said pressure, one needs a larger relief tu= be than the factory one on the oil fill. (call it perhaps 3/16" without goi= ng to the hanger and measuring) Ben --- On Sun, 9/19/10, Lehanover@aol.com wrote: From: Lehanover@aol.com Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Watch that psru oil seal To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Date: Sunday, September 19, 2010, 7:14 AM =0A=0A =0A =0A=0A=0AIn a message dated 9/19/2010 5:41:35 A.M. Eastern Stand= ard Time, =0Amsteitle@gmail.com writes:=0AKelly,=A0 =0A =20 =0A My custom adapter plate was built on a Bridgeport mill. =A0The hole = =0A spacing (and sizes) were obtained from a drawing for the actual RD-2C = plate. =0A =A0Could it be a thou or two oversize? =A0I guess that's possib= le, but I =0A don't think so. =A0The machinist that did the work is very m= eticulous. =0A =A0However, before reassembly, I'll definitely check it to = be sure. =0A =A0The bottom line is that there is 90-100 psi trying to push= it out of =0A place. =A0So, I feel that a mechanical fastener is the only= real way to =0A guarantee that it stays put 100% of the time. =A0=0A =20 =0A Mark =0A=0AAnything not positively retained in aircraft, will eventually fall of= f. =0AGarlock style lip seals will just barely hold back oil splash with li= ttle to no =0Apressure. You see Garlocks=A0 pressed into cavities that are = cast or formed =0Awith retaining lips at the end. Not into smooth bores. Mo= re than a few pounds =0Aagainst a lip seal over heats the seal and fails th= e lip allowing a leak. Note =0Athe oil drainback paths in the rotary, so se= als see no pressure even beside a =0Amain bearing other than from crank cas= e gasses.. =0A=A0=0AI had a weaver Brothers three section dry sump pump tha= t had the pressure =0Asection in=A0the blind end of a casting so no high pr= essurized oil was =0Aexposed to a seal of any kind. The drive shaft extende= d from the scavenge pump =0Aend, so any pressure pulses would of minimal si= ze=A0against the Garlock seal =0Apressed into a smooth bore in the end plat= e. Each session the seal would be =0Afound dancing along the shaft with oil= dripping off of everything. A competitor =0Atold me to retain the seal wit= h a plate of some kind. Once that very long =0Aweekend was over I did that = with a plate and three little screws. I replaced the =0Asingle lip seal=A0w= ith 2 half width lip seals and the plate and never had =0Aanother problem. = I also cut a tiny groove from the suction side of the pump to =0Athe center= of the shaft cavity. Oil drain-back to a lower pressure =0Aarea.=A0=0A=A0= =0ALip seals are the most freedom loving seals of all. If pressurized they = =0Aturn their lips inside out and leak on you.=0A=A0=0AIf you persist, they= will escape the bore and dump your oil out on the =0Aground. They have bee= n that way since the first day. Thought should be expended =0Aon the releas= e of crank case gasses. The street engine has a tiny tube sticking =0Aout o= f the oil filler neck. This is way too small for operation above about 3500= =0ARPM. =0A=A0=0ALynn E. Hanover =0A --0-15769397-1284899946=:92901 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Lynn,

  Am I rea= ding you right in saying that it it was crankcase pressure, not oil pressur= e. And to relieve said pressure, one needs a larger relief tube than the fa= ctory one on the oil fill. (call it perhaps 3/16" without going to the hang= er and measuring)

Ben

--- On Sun, 9/19/1= 0, Lehanover@aol.com <Lehanover@aol.com> wrote:

From: Lehanover@aol.com <Lehanover@aol.com>
= Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Watch that psru oil seal
To: "Rotary motors in = aircraft" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Date: Sunday, September 19= , 2010, 7:14 AM

=0A=0A =0A =0A=0A=
=0A
In a message dated 9/19/2010 5:41:35 A.M. Eastern Standard Tim= e, =0Amsteitle@gmail.com writes:
=0A
Kelly, = ; =0A

=0A
My custom adapter plate was built on a Brid= geport mill.  The hole =0A spacing (and sizes) were obtained from a d= rawing for the actual RD-2C plate. =0A  Could it be a thou or two ove= rsize?  I guess that's possible, but I =0A don't think so.  The = machinist that did the work is very meticulous. =0A  However, before = reassembly, I'll definitely check it to be sure. =0A  The bottom line= is that there is 90-100 psi trying to push it out of =0A place.  So,= I feel that a mechanical fastener is the only real way to =0A guarantee t= hat it stays put 100% of the time.  
=0A

=0A Mark
=0A
=0A
Anything no= t positively retained in aircraft, will eventually fall off. =0AGarlock sty= le lip seals will just barely hold back oil splash with little to no =0Apre= ssure. You see Garlocks  pressed into cavities that are cast or formed= =0Awith retaining lips at the end. Not into smooth bores. More than a few = pounds =0Aagainst a lip seal over heats the seal and fails the lip allowing= a leak. Note =0Athe oil drainback paths in the rotary, so seals see no pre= ssure even beside a =0Amain bearing other than from crank case gasses.. =0A
 
=0A
I had a weaver Brothers three section dry su= mp pump that had the pressure =0Asection in the blind end of a casting= so no high pressurized oil was =0Aexposed to a seal of any kind. The drive= shaft extended from the scavenge pump =0Aend, so any pressure pulses would= of minimal size against the Garlock seal =0Apressed into a smooth bor= e in the end plate. Each session the seal would be =0Afound dancing along t= he shaft with oil dripping off of everything. A competitor =0Atold me to re= tain the seal with a plate of some kind. Once that very long =0Aweekend was= over I did that with a plate and three little screws. I replaced the =0Asi= ngle lip seal with 2 half width lip seals and the plate and never had = =0Aanother problem. I also cut a tiny groove from the suction side of the p= ump to =0Athe center of the shaft cavity. Oil drain-back to a lower pressur= e =0Aarea. 
=0A
 
=0A
Lip seals are the most fr= eedom loving seals of all. If pressurized they =0Aturn their lips inside ou= t and leak on you.
=0A
 
=0A
If you persist, they wi= ll escape the bore and dump your oil out on the =0Aground. They have been t= hat way since the first day. Thought should be expended =0Aon the release o= f crank case gasses. The street engine has a tiny tube sticking =0Aout of t= he oil filler neck. This is way too small for operation above about 3500 = =0ARPM.
=0A
 
=0A
Lynn E. Hanover
 =0A<= /div>
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