X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail-pv0-f180.google.com ([74.125.83.180] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.9) with ESMTP id 4466611 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 14 Sep 2010 15:18:06 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=74.125.83.180; envelope-from=david.staten@gmail.com Received: by pvc30 with SMTP id 30so3934719pvc.25 for ; Tue, 14 Sep 2010 12:17:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from :user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to :content-type; bh=W4ya7+2BFY+VY4w0NPL4J/nAuUsJ4wBoDswnvYQqi+8=; b=rje9Iy6kRh8W1FhTX96xyFiDuSxONx/ZbSsnbwarMiysd2bFlFxPXsLeh9mlspyOdw 33utE41CjNX2Ll5j8USC3YZZJV6EKc6j3c3xUzCh0noNLEN15RYLOFu9/0KnLZDP3QhH 2Z1gimTwYqQyr534evmvOBRsP2A7bQK3auO+U= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references :in-reply-to:content-type; b=C35k711WaMEtFD1a/kcK9eslhPy6KkgWcdmlCyei0+kE+mi19GRenNa397uR4nbvBU fjgvMkAAa5oUP8erwPFuyBYoCL0VAp4e9mI+4sBbq9PEQ1lSJPuGdTKQHniIdCE9+zNW GIDr+H3QdtV8znzlgOp/b8zejZVEjei1lOn4M= Received: by 10.142.115.3 with SMTP id n3mr446704wfc.0.1284491849850; Tue, 14 Sep 2010 12:17:29 -0700 (PDT) Return-Path: Received: from [192.168.1.3] ([216.80.142.154]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id n36sm590576wfa.16.2010.09.14.12.17.27 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Tue, 14 Sep 2010 12:17:28 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4C8FCA4B.2050400@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2010 14:17:31 -0500 From: Dave User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.0; en-US; rv:1.9.2.8) Gecko/20100802 Lightning/1.0b2 Thunderbird/3.1.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: New rotary Cozy IV builder References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------010309030101070003050203" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------010309030101070003050203 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Not a problem, but I would say you'd be better served by putting a mazda stock oil cooler in series in the nose. The mazda cooler has a vernitherm that opens as it warms up, closes as it cools down, and is robust to be able to handle the stock mazda oil pumps pressure pulses. You can get ideas on how to duct it from looking at Velocity's.. True its more cramped in a cozy nose. You can put a rod/valve on the plumbing to keep hot oil out of the nose altogether in the summer or in case of a burst. Make sure the nose cooler is first in series with the main oil cooler. You may want to build conduit around the fore/aft plumbing Velocity style, and run ram air up that tubular conduit for additional oil cooling/cabin heating. This avoids the complexity of tapping into the pan, and having the power draw of an electric pump. The velocity has room in the nose to dump hot air overboard and the nose oil cooler is in fulltime use. In cold weather the hot air is "diverted" to the cabin. Dave On 9/14/2010 1:51 PM, Eric Deslauriers wrote: > Well, my idea is to tap the oil pan (at a level that in the event of a rupture, will not starve the engine of lubricating oil (i.e. using a stand off tube))and use an electric pump (which can be turn on or off)to circulate oil to the heating coil in the nose. > > I've seen pump that can circulate 4 to 8 gal/pm easily, which I think will be ok for heating. I've also planed for a heat exchanger (coolant/oil) to help keep oil temps higher. > > Do you guys see obvious faults/problems with such a setup? > > Eric Deslauriers, CMA > Directeur principal / Senior Manager > Juricomptabilité et évaluation d'entreprises / Forensic accounting and business valuation > Demers Beaulne S.E.N.C.R.L. > 1100, boul René-Lévesque Ouest, 20ième étage > Montréal (Québec) H3B 4N4 > Téléphone : (514) 878-0290 > Mobile : (514) 887-2136 > Télécopieur : (514) 874-0319 > mailto:edeslauriers@demersbeaulne.com > http://www.demersbeaulne.com > > > > -----Message d'origine----- > De : Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] De la part de Bob Tilley > Envoyé : 13 septembre 2010 19:30 > À : Rotary motors in aircraft > Objet : [FlyRotary] Re: New rotary Cozy IV builder > > Eric > > If you are going to use a Mazda rotary, the oil pressure is to high and pulsating to use! Unless you use another pump to pump it out of the oil pan to the heater. The engine oil pump will eat up most every flexible line or coil you might use. > > Bob Tilley > Baton Rouge > > On Sep 13, 2010, at 4:39 PM, "Eric Deslauriers" wrote: > >> I did a bit of reading on many on the car forum (read diesel and hybrids), and the consensus on these boards is that 12V electric heating does not work. Plus the draw on the electric system is very high. But I will monitor your progress for sure. >> >> But, I was thinking of running 1/2" flexible aluminum tubing (will probably need to be insulated?) from the engine compartment to the nose section to install an oil radiator core and blower there. Exactly like it's shown in the Aerocanard video (lines glasses to the inside of both fuselage sides). >> >> If I were to use coolant and not oil, what size/type of lines should I use? And are 1/2" line for oil adequate? If not what would be an ideal setup for someone using a radiator (coolant or oil? What line size/type?, etc.)? >> >> I really appreciate the help (guess it not the last time I use this line :-) ) >> >> Eric Deslauriers, CMA >> Directeur principal / Senior Manager >> Juricomptabilité et évaluation d'entreprises / Forensic accounting and business valuation >> Demers Beaulne S.E.N.C.R.L. >> 1100, boul René-Lévesque Ouest, 20ième étage >> Montréal (Québec) H3B 4N4 >> Téléphone : (514) 878-0290 >> Mobile : (514) 887-2136 >> Télécopieur : (514) 874-0319 >> mailto:edeslauriers@demersbeaulne.com >> http://www.demersbeaulne.com >> >> >> -----Message d'origine----- >> De : Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] De la part de Ernest Christley >> Envoyé : 13 septembre 2010 16:31 >> À : Rotary motors in aircraft >> Objet : [FlyRotary] Re: New rotary Cozy IV builder >> >> John Slade wrote: >>> Something like this: >>> http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=12v+ceramic+heater&hl=en&cid=12874249802847341330&ei=94GOTLWcA6DOwQXgnu2cBA&sa=title&ved=0CAcQ8wIwADgA#p >>> >>> >>> Chad Robinson is installing a couple of these. I will probably get >>> something similar. >> 300 watts. That's going to be 20 to 25 amps, depending on what your >> regulator is set to, and will still only give 1/4 of what the typical >> hair dryer delivers. Probably a minor issue if the heat can be trapped >> in that insulated tube called a Cozy cockpit, but close to useless >> otherwise. I have found the defrost to be MUCH more important than >> cabin heat. The defrost of the Cherokee I trained in could barely keep >> up with the chill of a North Carolina morning, and made finding the >> airport "interesting" (wipe/scan......wipe/scan....wipe). >> >> My solution for my Delta was to pull heat off the oil cooler. A movable >> panel blocks part of the air in the exit duct and forces it through the >> cabin through SCEET hoses. Vents are located in what I hope are optimal >> defrosting positions. >> >> -- >> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >> Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >> >> -- >> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >> Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html > -- > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html > > -- > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html > --------------010309030101070003050203 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Not a problem, but I would say you'd be better served by putting a mazda stock oil cooler in series in the nose. The mazda cooler has a vernitherm that opens as it warms up, closes as it cools down, and is robust to be able to handle the stock mazda oil pumps pressure pulses.

You can get ideas on how to duct it from looking at Velocity's.. True its more cramped in a cozy nose. You can put a rod/valve on the plumbing to keep hot oil out of the nose altogether in the summer or in case of a burst. Make sure the nose cooler is first in series with the main oil cooler. You may want to build conduit around the fore/aft plumbing Velocity style, and run ram air up that tubular conduit for additional oil cooling/cabin heating.

This avoids the complexity of tapping into the pan, and having the power draw of an electric pump. The velocity has room in the nose to dump hot air overboard and the nose oil cooler is in fulltime use. In cold weather the hot air is "diverted" to the cabin.

Dave

On 9/14/2010 1:51 PM, Eric Deslauriers wrote:
Well, my idea is to tap the oil pan (at a level that in the event of a rupture, will not starve the engine of lubricating oil (i.e. using a stand off tube))and use an electric pump (which can be turn on or off)to circulate oil to the heating coil in the nose.

I've seen pump that can circulate 4 to 8 gal/pm easily, which I think will be ok for heating. I've also planed for a heat exchanger (coolant/oil) to help keep oil temps higher.

Do you guys see obvious faults/problems with such a setup?

Eric Deslauriers, CMA
Directeur principal / Senior Manager
Juricomptabilité et évaluation d'entreprises / Forensic accounting and business valuation
Demers Beaulne S.E.N.C.R.L.
1100, boul René-Lévesque Ouest, 20ième étage
Montréal (Québec) H3B 4N4
Téléphone :   (514) 878-0290
Mobile :         (514) 887-2136
Télécopieur : (514) 874-0319
mailto:edeslauriers@demersbeaulne.com
http://www.demersbeaulne.com
 
 

-----Message d'origine-----
De : Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] De la part de Bob Tilley
Envoyé : 13 septembre 2010 19:30
À : Rotary motors in aircraft
Objet : [FlyRotary] Re: New rotary Cozy IV builder

Eric

If you are going to use a Mazda rotary,  the oil pressure is to high and pulsating to use! Unless you use another pump to pump it out of the oil pan to the heater. The engine oil pump will eat up most every flexible line or coil you might use.

Bob Tilley
Baton Rouge

On Sep 13, 2010, at 4:39 PM, "Eric Deslauriers" <edeslauriers@demersbeaulne.com> wrote:


I did a bit of reading on many on the car forum (read diesel and hybrids), and the consensus on these boards is that 12V electric heating does not work. Plus the draw on the electric system is very high. But I will monitor your progress for sure.

But, I was thinking of running 1/2" flexible aluminum tubing (will probably need to be insulated?) from the engine compartment to the nose section to install an oil radiator core and blower there. Exactly like it's shown in the Aerocanard video (lines glasses to the inside of both fuselage sides).

If I were to use coolant and not oil, what size/type of lines should I use? And are 1/2" line for oil adequate? If not what would be an ideal setup for someone using a radiator (coolant or oil? What line size/type?, etc.)?

I really appreciate the help (guess it not the last time I use this line :-) )

Eric Deslauriers, CMA
Directeur principal / Senior Manager
Juricomptabilité et évaluation d'entreprises / Forensic accounting and business valuation
Demers Beaulne S.E.N.C.R.L.
1100, boul René-Lévesque Ouest, 20ième étage
Montréal (Québec) H3B 4N4
Téléphone :   (514) 878-0290
Mobile :         (514) 887-2136
Télécopieur : (514) 874-0319
mailto:edeslauriers@demersbeaulne.com
http://www.demersbeaulne.com


-----Message d'origine-----
De : Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] De la part de Ernest Christley
Envoyé : 13 septembre 2010 16:31
À : Rotary motors in aircraft
Objet : [FlyRotary] Re: New rotary Cozy IV builder

John Slade wrote:

Something like this:
http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=12v+ceramic+heater&hl=en&cid=12874249802847341330&ei=94GOTLWcA6DOwQXgnu2cBA&sa=title&ved=0CAcQ8wIwADgA#p 
<http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=12v+ceramic+heater&hl=en&cid=12874249802847341330&ei=94GOTLWcA6DOwQXgnu2cBA&sa=title&ved=0CAcQ8wIwADgA#p>

Chad Robinson is installing a couple of these. I will probably get 
something similar.

300 watts.  That's going to be 20 to 25 amps, depending on what your 
regulator is set to, and will still only give 1/4 of what the typical 
hair dryer delivers.  Probably a minor issue if the heat can be trapped 
in that insulated tube called a Cozy cockpit, but close to useless 
otherwise.  I have found the defrost to be MUCH more important than 
cabin heat.  The defrost of the Cherokee I trained in could barely keep 
up with the chill of a North Carolina morning, and made finding the 
airport "interesting" (wipe/scan......wipe/scan....wipe).

My solution for my Delta was to pull heat off the oil cooler.  A movable 
panel blocks part of the air in the exit duct and forces it through the 
cabin through SCEET hoses.  Vents are located in what I hope are optimal 
defrosting positions.

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