X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from fed1rmmtao103.cox.net ([68.230.241.43] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.2) with ESMTP id 4125651 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 11:29:01 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=68.230.241.43; envelope-from=rv-4mike@cox.net Received: from fed1rmimpo02.cox.net ([70.169.32.72]) by fed1rmmtao103.cox.net (InterMail vM.8.00.01.00 201-2244-105-20090324) with ESMTP id <20100215162825.NQIF19579.fed1rmmtao103.cox.net@fed1rmimpo02.cox.net> for ; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 11:28:25 -0500 Received: from willsPC ([68.105.86.80]) by fed1rmimpo02.cox.net with bizsmtp id iGUP1d00U1k005Q04GUQrj; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 11:28:24 -0500 X-VR-Score: 0.00 X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.1 cv=zS9SgV63hfBKgCfMNmcWTXDxxMKGbBeTgNVRdCpsi3s= c=1 sm=1 a=XruvlouZCDbGUgEaRUiNZQ==:17 a=3oc9M9_CAAAA:8 a=HZJGGiqLAAAA:8 a=WEIh_l621urTTD7K7fUA:9 a=FKTptWHKh7i-AdS0WXgA:7 a=xnsOGFdAfg4NpN8_EltOSSCZj0AA:4 a=U8Ie8EnqySEA:10 a=HeoGohOdMD0A:10 a=UtlUOGQ0-Q7snbiV:21 a=7FhRWYIDWCmWPCSd:21 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=DIWEsUjKRXIoy1TllSQA:9 a=66odmpQbVIC6lDkO6y0A:7 a=Jewx9kH5Qn9akZ4EssIAe05C2JIA:4 a=EzXvWhQp4_cA:10 a=XruvlouZCDbGUgEaRUiNZQ==:117 X-CM-Score: 0.00 Message-ID: <65081AF7A2354112B1E4FEBD7FC99FDB@willsPC> From: "Mike Wills" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: PP Housings Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 08:28:22 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001F_01CAAE18.D60E7400" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 14.0.8089.726 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V14.0.8089.726 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01CAAE18.D60E7400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bill, I didn't mean to imply that Alan built the FWF stuff - I know that was = all Powersport. The entire airplane was a work of art with a completely = aluminum cowl with an annular inlet. They wouldn't make a claim for FWF = weight, but they did say the entire airplane was well under 700 pounds. = A typical RV-3 is in the 730 pound range. I met Alan and Everett at the Copperstate fly-in in the mid 90s and = talked their ears off. So what does this your effort mean for the current Powersport company? = Are they dead and gone? Should we anticipate some sort of legal battle = over IP issues? At the time that I talked with Alan and Everett they still were not = selling anything. The current owners of Powersport priced themselves out = of business (at least my business). For all of its warts, at least when = you pay 25K for a Lycosaur you know exactly what you are getting. A FWF = package such as the most recent Powersport, Eggenfellner, etc... that = costs as much as or more than the Lyc with relatively no track record is = a dead end in my book. If you guys can come out with the pieces-parts to duplicate that = original engine or a complete engine, without a price tag that breaks = the bank, I'd think you'll have a winner. If the end result is in the = same ballpark as a Lyc, I'd stick with my $3200 Turrentine built 13B. Mike From: WRJJRS@aol.com=20 Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2010 11:56 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: PP Housings=20 Mike,=20 The original PowerSport RV-3 was piloted by Alan. All of the FWF systems = were built by Everett and Steve. That airplane was a test bed for the = "Superlite" engine, which used Mazda rotors and housings but was so = modified that you couldn't recognize anything. The plane had the world = record for time to climb for prop driven small displacement aircraft for = some time. That plane was a screamer, both literally and figuratively. = It had two straight pipes dumping at the stock cowl exit. It would wake = the dead. They had to brace the cockpit floor to prevent trouble from = the pulses loosening rivets. Need I say a good muffler is in the works = too? OK I am going to check with Steve to see when we might be able to = build some for the public. As to the side plates, you can build them = from aluminum, but there is another solution that PS tried. They did a = lightweight machined and welded steel end plate only about 1-2 pounds = heaver than the aluminum plate and nitrideable just like the stocker. = You would have to be running P-ports though as there was no provision = for side ports in these housings. Once I have some quotes on the = machining I'll give you some kind of price ideas. I'm modeling the = system and producing drawings for proper produceability. Bill=20 Bill, So do you have an estimate on when these might be available and at = what price? On a somewhat related note, anyone have any experience with any = aftermarket aluminum end/intermediate housings? I'd love to build an all = aluminum P-Port engine. The first rotary airplane I ever saw was the = original Powersport RV-3 that Alan Tolle built. That engine was all = aluminum and the airplane was so nice and light it was a rocket ship. = Sign me up! Mike Wills From: WRJJRS@aol.com=20 Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2010 11:44 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: PP Housings=20 In a message dated 2/14/2010 7:40:41 AM Pacific Standard Time, = keltro@att.net writes: George, Do you have any contact info for the ex "Powersport" type PP = housings ??............. =20 -- Kelly Troyer=20 "Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine=20 "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=20 "Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=20 Kelly, Not to butt in but I am working with one of the original PowerSport = guys and we are going to work out the layouts so we can have the P-ports = done CNC. These P-ports are properly sealed, using o-rings, no goo, not = welded to the internal steel. Everett Hatch and Steve Beckham work this = out years ago and they don't leak. We plan to change just slightly from = the original design putting the butterfly outside of the port, but still = at the housing face to allow good throttle response. This needs to be = available to the guys running in aircraft. We want to make a safe and = robust system. Bill Jepson ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01CAAE18.D60E7400 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Bill,
 
I didn=92t mean to imply that Alan = built the FWF=20 stuff - I know that was all Powersport. The entire airplane was a work = of art=20 with a completely aluminum cowl with an annular inlet. They wouldn=92t = make a=20 claim for FWF weight, but they did say the entire airplane was well = under 700=20 pounds. A typical RV-3 is in the 730 pound range.
 
I met Alan and Everett at the = Copperstate fly-in=20 in the mid 90s and talked their ears off.
 
So what does this your effort = mean for the=20 current Powersport company? Are they dead and gone? Should we anticipate = some=20 sort of legal battle over IP issues?
 
At the time that I talked with Alan = and Everett=20 they still were not selling anything. The current owners of Powersport = priced=20 themselves out of business (at least my business). For all of its warts, = at=20 least when you pay 25K for a Lycosaur you know exactly what you are = getting. A=20 FWF package such as the most recent Powersport, Eggenfellner, etc... = that costs=20 as much as or more than the Lyc with relatively no track record is a = dead end in=20 my book.
 
If you guys can come out with the = pieces-parts to=20 duplicate that original engine or a complete engine, without a price tag = that=20 breaks the bank, I'd think you'll have a winner. If the end result is in = the=20 same ballpark as a Lyc, I'd stick with my $3200 Turrentine built=20 13B.
 
Mike

From: WRJJRS@aol.com
Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2010 11:56 PM
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: PP Housings

Mike,
The original PowerSport RV-3 was piloted by = Alan. All=20 of the FWF systems were built by Everett and Steve. That airplane was a = test bed=20 for the "Superlite" engine, which used Mazda rotors and housings but was = so=20 modified that you couldn't recognize anything. The plane had the world = record=20 for time to climb for prop driven small displacement aircraft for some = time.=20 That plane was a screamer, both literally and figuratively. It had = two=20 straight pipes dumping at the stock cowl exit. It would wake the dead. = They had=20 to brace the cockpit floor to prevent trouble from the pulses loosening=20 rivets. Need I say a good muffler is in the works too? OK I am = going=20 to check with Steve to see when we might be able to build some for the = public.=20 As to the side plates, you can build them from aluminum, but there=20 is another solution that PS tried. They did a lightweight = machined and=20 welded steel end plate only about 1-2 pounds heaver than the = aluminum plate=20 and nitrideable just like the stocker. You would have to be running = P-ports=20 though as there was no provision for side ports in these housings. Once = I=20 have some quotes on the machining I'll give you some kind of = price=20 ideas. I'm modeling the system and producing drawings for proper=20 produceability.
Bill 
Bill,
So do you have an estimate on when = these might=20 be available and at what price?
 
On a somewhat related note, anyone = have any=20 experience with any aftermarket aluminum end/intermediate housings? = I'd love=20 to build an all aluminum P-Port engine. The first rotary airplane I = ever saw=20 was the original Powersport RV-3 that Alan Tolle built. That engine = was all=20 aluminum and the airplane was so nice and light it was a rocket ship. = Sign me=20 up!
 
Mike Wills

Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2010 11:44 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: PP Housings

In a message dated 2/14/2010 7:40:41 AM Pacific Standard Time, keltro@att.net=20 writes:
George,
   Do you have any contact info for the = ex "Powersport"=20 type PP housings ??.............  
--
Kelly Troyer
"Dyke = Delta"_13B=20 ROTARY Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil = Manifold=20
Kelly,
Not to butt in but I am working with one of the original = PowerSport guys=20 and we are going to work out the layouts so we can have the P-ports = done CNC.=20 These P-ports are properly sealed, using o-rings, no goo, not welded = to the=20 internal steel. Everett Hatch and Steve Beckham work this out years = ago and=20 they don't leak. We plan to change just slightly from the original = design=20 putting the butterfly outside of the port, but still at the housing = face to=20 allow good throttle response. This needs to be available to the guys = running=20 in aircraft. We want to make a safe and robust system.
Bill Jepson
 
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