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Message-ID: <4AF88DE9.9040601@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 09 Nov 2009 16:47:21 -0500
From: Steve Brooks <cozy4pilot@gmail.com>
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To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Ground loops? n[FlyRotary] Re: No start after
 engine replacement
References: <list-3961486@logan.com>
In-Reply-To: <list-3961486@logan.com>
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George,
I double / triple checked all of the grounds yesterday.  The main ground 
cable from the battery is bolted to the engine block,   The ground 
connections are clean, and measure low resistance with the ohmmeter. 

Steve

George Lendich wrote:
> Steve,
> How about a ( or intermittent) broken earth battery cable.
> George ( down under)
>> Ed,
>> Good thought, but all of the grounding is identical to what is was 
>> before. None of the EC-2 wiring changed, except for adding a couple 
>> of wires going to the EM-3.  I did pull all of the wires through the 
>> firewall to install a larger grommet to accommodate more wires for 
>> sensors, and the air lines from pitot and static to the EM-3.  The 
>> old one was only 3/4" and packed full.  The new one is 1-1/2", so 
>> much more room.
>>
>> Steve
>>
>> Ed Anderson wrote:
>>> Steve, when you changed engines, did you make any changes to your power
>>> buss, in particular are you grounding certain components (such as 
>>> EC3) to
>>> different locations than you did before?  What I am thinking of is the
>>> "ground loops" that seemed to have it in for composite aircraft?
>>> I've know of folks turning an inoperative system into a working 
>>> system by
>>> just changing the grounding point - therefore the question.
>>>
>>> Ed
>>>
>>> Ed Anderson
>>>
>>> Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered
>>>
>>> Matthews, NC
>>>
>>> eanderson@carolina.rr.com
>>>
>>> http://www.andersonee.com
>>>
>>> http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html
>>>
>>> http://www.flyrotary.com/
>>>
>>> http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW
>>>
>>> http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On
>>> Behalf Of Steve Brooks
>>> Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 12:59 PM
>>> To: Rotary motors in aircraft
>>> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Battery Location[FlyRotary] Re: No start after
>>> engine replacement
>>>
>>> Steve Brooks wrote:
>>>
>>> I was able to tap into the front rotor primary injector, and I do 
>>> see pulses when cranking the engine.  I have a few bright white 
>>> LED's with the resistor in them to run on 12 VDC, so I tapped into 
>>> the trigger, connecting the negative lead to the injector trigger 
>>> lead.  The LED makes it quite easy to see the injector trigger.  
>>> Sometimes I see steady pulses of 1 or 2 per second while cranking.   
>>> But, several times it stopped pulses, or missed several.  I see many 
>>> more pulses on the rotor one injector, but still not consistent and 
>>> steady as you would expect.
>>> Ran the injector test, and it looked normal.  Has to be with the CAS 
>>> or controller I would suspect, but I'm not sure how to go about 
>>> testing the CAS.
>>>
>>> Steve
>>>
>>>> Bobby,
>>>> The 2nd gen CAS is 4 wires, though two of them get hooked together. 
>>>> I've doubled checked those connections tot he EC-2 and verified 
>>>> continuity lead by lead.  I've never tried to look at the CAS 
>>>> signal, and I'm not sure what it looks like.  But, my test 
>>>> equipment is limited to a digital voltmeter, and a logic probe.  I 
>>>> wish that I still had an oscilloscope at time like this.  Nothing 
>>>> like a picture.
>>>>
>>>> Bobby J. Hughes wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Steve,
>>>>>
>>>>> Sure sounds like the same symptoms I observed with my CAS problems. I
>>>>> know the Renesis CAS is different. Is your CAS a two wire circuit. 
>>>>> If so
>>>>> I would try reversing the CAS wires at the EC3. If the EC3 is 
>>>>> lowering
>>>>> the CAS voltage (speculation on my part) I would want the voltage
>>>>> correction on the CAS output to the EC3. If on the input the voltage
>>>>> might be to low during cranking. Just speculation.
>>>>> Bobby
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Rotary motors in aircraft 
>>>>> [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On
>>>>> Behalf Of Steve Brooks
>>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 10:52 AM
>>>>> To: Rotary motors in aircraft
>>>>> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Battery Location[FlyRotary] Re: No start 
>>>>> after
>>>>> engine replacement
>>>>>
>>>>> I've been testing it all morning, and while I have tested it in a 
>>>>> number
>>>>> of ways, I still have no clue why I'm not getting consistent spark.
>>>>> I pulled a plug from each rotor, and clamped it to a ground, so that
>>>>> first of all, the engine would spin faster with a plug out of each
>>>>> rotor, and second, I could see two spark plugs instead of just one.
>>>>>
>>>>> I probably did 15-20 cranks of 5 seconds each.  I "usually" get an
>>>>> inital spark off of the front rotor and nothing else, but there were
>>>>> times that it didn't spark at all, and once that it sparked once 
>>>>> after 2
>>>>> or 3 seconds of cranking.
>>>>>
>>>>> On the rear rotor, I do not get the initial spark, but it does spark
>>>>> maybe 5 or 6 times during 5 seconds of cranking, but very hit and 
>>>>> miss.
>>>>>
>>>>> I might see two close together, followed by nothing for a second 
>>>>> or two.
>>>>>
>>>>> I checked the coil wiring from the EC-2 plug to the GM wiring harness
>>>>> connector, and all was perfect.  I also pulled two connector off 
>>>>> of the
>>>>> LS1 coils and checked for continuity.  Still no issue.  since I 
>>>>> had one
>>>>> apart, I decided to hook up the logic probe to the trigger pin.  With
>>>>> the master on, I see a low signal, and when I start cranking, the low
>>>>> signal goes away.  Though I could not see any LEDs on the probe 
>>>>> blink,
>>>>> when I flipped the switch to pulses, it was showing steady pulses. 
>>>>> Obviously of a very short duration, or I should have seen the high 
>>>>> / low
>>>>> LED's blinking.  I am guessing that since the low signal goes away 
>>>>> when
>>>>> cranking, the EC-2 must be seeing a sufficient RPM from the CAS.  But
>>>>> this is guessing.
>>>>> I also verified all of the power andf grounds to the coils and 
>>>>> EC-2.  I
>>>>> am just not finding anything wrong in the wiring.  I had redone the
>>>>> wiring, and although I was pretty careful about tagging everything,
>>>>> there is always a risk of getting something wrong, but I checked and
>>>>> double checked with nothing out of place.
>>>>>
>>>>> I ran the mode 8 test again to watch both plugs I had out, and it
>>>>> produces consistent sparks that are bright blue.
>>>>> The only wiring that I haven't double checked is the new wiring to 
>>>>> the
>>>>> EM-3.  But, there aren't many connections from the EM-3 to the 
>>>>> EC-2, and
>>>>> the EM-3 seems to be communicating with the EC-2,as I am not 
>>>>> getting the
>>>>> "NO-OP" that I have heard others talk about.  I really have not 
>>>>> messed
>>>>> with the EM-3 much so far though, because I've first been trying 
>>>>> to get
>>>>> the engine started.
>>>>>
>>>>> Right now, I'm recharging the battery.
>>>>>
>>>>> Steve
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Bobby J. Hughes wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Steve,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My CAS was always wired correctly also. My coils \ plugs fired in 
>>>>>> test
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> mode but not during cranking. Are you having problems with one 
>>>>>> plugs during cranking are all plugs?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bobby
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: Rotary motors in aircraft 
>>>>>> [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Steve Brooks
>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 9:11 AM
>>>>>> To: Rotary motors in aircraft
>>>>>> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Battery Location[FlyRotary] Re: No start 
>>>>>> after engine replacement
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am running an 89-91 13B engine.  Both engines were JDM engines, 
>>>>>> so I
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> assume that the CAS is the correct one.  I had about 60 flight 
>>>>>> hours on the origianl engine, and the new CAS is identical to the 
>>>>>> old one, so I think it is correct.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I did have the controller upgraded for the EC-3, but I beleive 
>>>>>> that Tracy tested it also.  I don't have anything in between the 
>>>>>> CAS and EC-2, it is just wired per the EC-2 manual.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Steve
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bobby J. Hughes wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Steve,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You mention you changed CAS with the new engine and then 
>>>>>>> replaced it with you old CAS. Three questions.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Did you have any kind of external circuit between the original 
>>>>>>> CAS and
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> the EC2?  Diode matrix etc.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Did your EC2 go back to Tracy for upgrades between last time it 
>>>>>>> was running and the new engine \ CAS.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Are you sure you have he correct CAS for your engine \ EC2 version.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I had a problem with upgrades \ CAS but it was on a renesis. 
>>>>>>> Very similar to what your describing.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Before first start I installed the diode matrix what was being 
>>>>>>> tested
>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>> and used by some folks. Engine started fine.
>>>>>>> I sent my EC2 back to Tracy for upgrades and I believe he put the
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> "fix"
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> on the EC2 during upgrades. When I reinstalled the EM2 it would 
>>>>>>> not start. I ended up removing the external diodes and the 
>>>>>>> engine started
>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>> right up. Problem solved...sort of.
>>>>>>> I then started having the high rpm cutout problem because of 
>>>>>>> high CAS
>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>> voltage. But first I let one sparkplug fall off the engine 
>>>>>>> during testing and it smoked the EC2. So back to Tracy it went. 
>>>>>>> I ended up installing a different resistor \ zener diode circuit 
>>>>>>> that Dennis H and Mark S are using to control the voltage at 
>>>>>>> high rpms. Tracy was at
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> a loss as to why I needed the external circuit with the mod's he 
>>>>>>> has made to my EC2.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Bobby Hughes
>>>>>>> RV10, Gen 1 (low oil pressure) Super Renesis ...err
>>>>>>> 25 hrs in Phase 1,  68 hrs total engine time.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I measured the voltage on the engine power buss, and with the 
>>>>>>> master switch on, it is 12.5 VDC.  While cranking the voltage 
>>>>>>> drops to 10.2 VDC.  I'm not sure what is normal, so I'm 
>>>>>>> interested in any thoughts on that.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I switched the engine bus over to the front battery, and I was 
>>>>>>> surprised to see that while cranking the voltage dropped to 9.5
>>>>>>>
>>>>> volts.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It has a rather long wire running from the front to the rear of 
>>>>>>> the aircraft, so perhaps I am dropping some voltage since it is 
>>>>>>> powering the coils, injectors, fuel pump, etc., though for this 
>>>>>>> test, I did not
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> have the fuel pump turned on.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I know that it does maintain the engine already running, which 
>>>>>>> is really what I intended with the emergency power bypass.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The cranking RPM appears to be normal, but I have no way to 
>>>>>>> measure the actual RPM, that I can think of.  I did watch the 
>>>>>>> EM-3 during cranking, but I did not see any RPM indication on 
>>>>>>> the display.  It stayed at zero the whole time, but that may be 
>>>>>>> normal.  I don't know.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Steve
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ed Anderson wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ok, with a separate battery powering the EC2/3 then you 
>>>>>>>> wouldn't think
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> cranking load shouldn't drop that source voltage but if 
>>>>>>>> interconnected
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> - it
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> may.   However, if the battery cranking the engine is low or
>>>>>>>>
>>>>> dropping
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> too
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> much voltage, your engine may not be making the two revs at the 
>>>>>>>> required 150 rpm.  However, in that case, I wouldn't think you 
>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> even get the first spark.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Just my 0.02
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ed Anderson
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Matthews, NC
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> eanderson@carolina.rr.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://www.andersonee.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://www.flyrotary.com/
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: Rotary motors in aircraft 
>>>>>>>> [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net]
>>>>>>>> On Behalf Of Steve Brooks
>>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 7:35 AM
>>>>>>>> To: Rotary motors in aircraft
>>>>>>>> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Battery Location[FlyRotary] Re: No 
>>>>>>>> start after engine replacement
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ed,
>>>>>>>> That sounds like a good explanation for what I am seeing.  The 
>>>>>>>> battery
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> is about two years old.  It is an Odyssey PC680.  I have two 
>>>>>>>> batteries, one sits on the rear spar and runs all of the engine 
>>>>>>>> stuff,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> and the other one is in the nose an runs the avionics.  I have 
>>>>>>>> pretty
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> heavy cables running from the battery to the engine, 0 gauge as 
>>>>>>>> I recall, and they are not very long.  Maybe 5 ft for the one 
>>>>>>>> hooked to
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> the started, and 3 ft for the one ground connected to the engine
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> block.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I will check the voltage as you suggested while cranking,  I 
>>>>>>>> also have
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> an emergency bypass switch where I cant power the engine 
>>>>>>>> critical buss
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> from the front battery, so that would also be a quick test, as 
>>>>>>>> I could
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> crank from the rear battery and power the EC-2 and coils from the
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> front.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I just installed the EC-3, so I'm not too familiar with it 
>>>>>>>> yet.  I will see if it shows the RPM during cranking.  I'm not 
>>>>>>>> sure if it does
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> or not.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Steve
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ed Anderson wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Steve, where is your battery located?  Engine compartment or 
>>>>>>>>> nose??
>>>>>>>>> Long leads can drop a lot of voltage under cranking current.  
>>>>>>>>> New engine
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> may
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> have  higher compression and  may take more juice than 
>>>>>>>>> previous engine to turn it over fast enough.  The fact that 
>>>>>>>>> your old engine was also hard to start makes me wonder.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Ed
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Ed Anderson
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Matthews, NC
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> eanderson@carolina.rr.com
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> http://www.andersonee.com
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> http://www.flyrotary.com/
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>> From: Rotary motors in aircraft 
>>>>>>>>> [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net]
>>>>>>>>> On Behalf Of Steve Brooks
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 4:46 PM
>>>>>>>>> To: Rotary motors in aircraft
>>>>>>>>> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: No start after engine replacement
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> That's interesting.  I had not made any changes to mode 8, but 
>>>>>>>>> it is
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> certainly easy enough to reset it to default.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Steve
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Steven W. Boese wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Steve,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> It might be useful to reset the EC2 timing mode 8 setting to 
>>>>>>>>>> the default
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> setting. My EC2's do not produce consistent or strong sparks 
>>>>>>>>> at RPM's
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> less
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> than about 1200 if the EC2 timing is advanced using mode 8.  
>>>>>>>>> The greater
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> advance, the weaker the spark.  Occasionally there will be a 
>>>>>>>>> strong
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> spark, but the timing on these is very retarded.  With my 
>>>>>>>>> EC2's, the
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> most consistent low RPM sparks are obtained at the most 
>>>>>>>>> retarded mode
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 8
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> setting,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> but the EC2 must be receiving CAS signals (engine running) in 
>>>>>>>>> order
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> make
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> this change.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Steve Boese
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> From: Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary@lancaironline.net] 
>>>>>>>>>> On Behalf
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Of
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Steve Brooks [cozy4pilot@gmail.com]
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 1:09 PM
>>>>>>>>>> To: Rotary motors in aircraft
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [FlyRotary] No start after engine replacement
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I replaced my original engine with another newly rebuilt 
>>>>>>>>>> block, and
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> also added the EM-3 to the installation. The old engine was 
>>>>>>>>>> hard to
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> start, and was also making a ticking noise when it did start, 
>>>>>>>>>> which
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> didn't used to be there.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> After several failed attempts, and double checking the 
>>>>>>>>>> connections,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I had a neighbor help me do some testing.  While the ignition 
>>>>>>>>>> test
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> runs fine, when checking one of the plugs, it sparks when I 
>>>>>>>>>> initially crank the engine, and then stops.  Once in a while 
>>>>>>>>>> there
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> will be another spark, but not very often.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I reinstalled the original CAS and have the same issue.  I 
>>>>>>>>>> have double checked the CAS connections and checked them with 
>>>>>>>>>> an ohm meter to the connector on the EC-2 also. Everything 
>>>>>>>>>> seems to check
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> out, yet I get only that initial spark. I have replaced the 
>>>>>>>>>> spark plugs with new ones, and whenever I pull one to check 
>>>>>>>>>> it, is is wet
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> with fuel, which is no surprise.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I am wondering if anyone has seen this type of problem, or if 
>>>>>>>>>> you have any suggestions.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>>> Steve Brooks
>>>>>>>>>> Cozy MKIV 13B turbo
>>>>>>>>>>
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