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(nc-71-49-37-191.dhcp.embarqhsd.net [71.49.37.191]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 22sm2136996qyk.2.2009.11.08.14.05.05 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Sun, 08 Nov 2009 14:05:06 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4AF7408F.7070605@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 08 Nov 2009 17:05:03 -0500 From: Steve Brooks User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Ground loops? n[FlyRotary] Re: No start after engine replacement References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ed, Good thought, but all of the grounding is identical to what is was before. None of the EC-2 wiring changed, except for adding a couple of wires going to the EM-3. I did pull all of the wires through the firewall to install a larger grommet to accommodate more wires for sensors, and the air lines from pitot and static to the EM-3. The old one was only 3/4" and packed full. The new one is 1-1/2", so much more room. Steve Ed Anderson wrote: > Steve, when you changed engines, did you make any changes to your power > buss, in particular are you grounding certain components (such as EC3) to > different locations than you did before? What I am thinking of is the > "ground loops" that seemed to have it in for composite aircraft? > > I've know of folks turning an inoperative system into a working system by > just changing the grounding point - therefore the question. > > Ed > > Ed Anderson > > Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered > > Matthews, NC > > eanderson@carolina.rr.com > > http://www.andersonee.com > > http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html > > http://www.flyrotary.com/ > > http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW > > http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm > > -----Original Message----- > From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On > Behalf Of Steve Brooks > Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 12:59 PM > To: Rotary motors in aircraft > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Battery Location[FlyRotary] Re: No start after > engine replacement > > Steve Brooks wrote: > > I was able to tap into the front rotor primary injector, and I do see > pulses when cranking the engine. I have a few bright white LED's with > the resistor in them to run on 12 VDC, so I tapped into the trigger, > connecting the negative lead to the injector trigger lead. The LED > makes it quite easy to see the injector trigger. Sometimes I see steady > pulses of 1 or 2 per second while cranking. But, several times it > stopped pulses, or missed several. I see many more pulses on the rotor > one injector, but still not consistent and steady as you would expect. > Ran the injector test, and it looked normal. Has to be with the CAS or > controller I would suspect, but I'm not sure how to go about testing the > CAS. > > Steve > >> Bobby, >> The 2nd gen CAS is 4 wires, though two of them get hooked together. >> I've doubled checked those connections tot he EC-2 and verified >> continuity lead by lead. I've never tried to look at the CAS signal, >> and I'm not sure what it looks like. But, my test equipment is >> limited to a digital voltmeter, and a logic probe. I wish that I >> still had an oscilloscope at time like this. Nothing like a picture. >> >> Bobby J. Hughes wrote: >> >>> Steve, >>> >>> Sure sounds like the same symptoms I observed with my CAS problems. I >>> know the Renesis CAS is different. Is your CAS a two wire circuit. If so >>> I would try reversing the CAS wires at the EC3. If the EC3 is lowering >>> the CAS voltage (speculation on my part) I would want the voltage >>> correction on the CAS output to the EC3. If on the input the voltage >>> might be to low during cranking. Just speculation. >>> Bobby >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On >>> Behalf Of Steve Brooks >>> Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 10:52 AM >>> To: Rotary motors in aircraft >>> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Battery Location[FlyRotary] Re: No start after >>> engine replacement >>> >>> I've been testing it all morning, and while I have tested it in a number >>> of ways, I still have no clue why I'm not getting consistent spark. >>> I pulled a plug from each rotor, and clamped it to a ground, so that >>> first of all, the engine would spin faster with a plug out of each >>> rotor, and second, I could see two spark plugs instead of just one. >>> >>> I probably did 15-20 cranks of 5 seconds each. I "usually" get an >>> inital spark off of the front rotor and nothing else, but there were >>> times that it didn't spark at all, and once that it sparked once after 2 >>> or 3 seconds of cranking. >>> >>> On the rear rotor, I do not get the initial spark, but it does spark >>> maybe 5 or 6 times during 5 seconds of cranking, but very hit and miss. >>> >>> I might see two close together, followed by nothing for a second or two. >>> >>> I checked the coil wiring from the EC-2 plug to the GM wiring harness >>> connector, and all was perfect. I also pulled two connector off of the >>> LS1 coils and checked for continuity. Still no issue. since I had one >>> apart, I decided to hook up the logic probe to the trigger pin. With >>> the master on, I see a low signal, and when I start cranking, the low >>> signal goes away. Though I could not see any LEDs on the probe blink, >>> when I flipped the switch to pulses, it was showing steady pulses. >>> Obviously of a very short duration, or I should have seen the high / low >>> LED's blinking. I am guessing that since the low signal goes away when >>> cranking, the EC-2 must be seeing a sufficient RPM from the CAS. But >>> this is guessing. >>> I also verified all of the power andf grounds to the coils and EC-2. I >>> am just not finding anything wrong in the wiring. I had redone the >>> wiring, and although I was pretty careful about tagging everything, >>> there is always a risk of getting something wrong, but I checked and >>> double checked with nothing out of place. >>> >>> I ran the mode 8 test again to watch both plugs I had out, and it >>> produces consistent sparks that are bright blue. >>> The only wiring that I haven't double checked is the new wiring to the >>> EM-3. But, there aren't many connections from the EM-3 to the EC-2, and >>> the EM-3 seems to be communicating with the EC-2,as I am not getting the >>> "NO-OP" that I have heard others talk about. I really have not messed >>> with the EM-3 much so far though, because I've first been trying to get >>> the engine started. >>> >>> Right now, I'm recharging the battery. >>> >>> Steve >>> >>> >>> Bobby J. Hughes wrote: >>> >>> >>>> Steve, >>>> >>>> My CAS was always wired correctly also. My coils \ plugs fired in test >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>>> mode but not during cranking. Are you having problems with one plugs >>>> during cranking are all plugs? >>>> >>>> Bobby >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] >>>> On Behalf Of Steve Brooks >>>> Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 9:11 AM >>>> To: Rotary motors in aircraft >>>> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Battery Location[FlyRotary] Re: No start >>>> after engine replacement >>>> >>>> I am running an 89-91 13B engine. Both engines were JDM engines, so I >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>>> assume that the CAS is the correct one. I had about 60 flight hours >>>> on the origianl engine, and the new CAS is identical to the old one, >>>> so I think it is correct. >>>> >>>> I did have the controller upgraded for the EC-3, but I beleive that >>>> Tracy tested it also. I don't have anything in between the CAS and >>>> EC-2, it is just wired per the EC-2 manual. >>>> >>>> Steve >>>> >>>> Bobby J. Hughes wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Steve, >>>>> >>>>> You mention you changed CAS with the new engine and then replaced >>>>> it with you old CAS. Three questions. >>>>> >>>>> Did you have any kind of external circuit between the original CAS and >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> the EC2? Diode matrix etc. >>>>> >>>>> Did your EC2 go back to Tracy for upgrades between last time it was >>>>> running and the new engine \ CAS. >>>>> >>>>> Are you sure you have he correct CAS for your engine \ EC2 version. >>>>> >>>>> I had a problem with upgrades \ CAS but it was on a renesis. Very >>>>> similar to what your describing. >>>>> >>>>> Before first start I installed the diode matrix what was being tested >>>>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>>>> and used by some folks. Engine started fine. >>>>> I sent my EC2 back to Tracy for upgrades and I believe he put the >>>>> >>>>> >>>> "fix" >>>> >>>> >>>>> on the EC2 during upgrades. When I reinstalled the EM2 it would not >>>>> start. I ended up removing the external diodes and the engine started >>>>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>>>> right up. Problem solved...sort of. >>>>> I then started having the high rpm cutout problem because of high CAS >>>>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>>>> voltage. But first I let one sparkplug fall off the engine during >>>>> testing and it smoked the EC2. So back to Tracy it went. I ended up >>>>> installing a different resistor \ zener diode circuit that Dennis H >>>>> and Mark S are using to control the voltage at high rpms. Tracy was at >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> a loss as to why I needed the external circuit with the mod's he >>>>> has made to my EC2. >>>>> >>>>> Bobby Hughes >>>>> RV10, Gen 1 (low oil pressure) Super Renesis ...err >>>>> 25 hrs in Phase 1, 68 hrs total engine time. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I measured the voltage on the engine power buss, and with the >>>>> master switch on, it is 12.5 VDC. While cranking the voltage drops >>>>> to 10.2 VDC. I'm not sure what is normal, so I'm interested in any >>>>> thoughts on that. >>>>> >>>>> I switched the engine bus over to the front battery, and I was >>>>> surprised to see that while cranking the voltage dropped to 9.5 >>>>> >>>>> >>> volts. >>> >>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> It has a rather long wire running from the front to the rear of the >>>>> aircraft, so perhaps I am dropping some voltage since it is >>>>> powering the coils, injectors, fuel pump, etc., though for this >>>>> test, I did not >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> have the fuel pump turned on. >>>>> >>>>> I know that it does maintain the engine already running, which is >>>>> really what I intended with the emergency power bypass. >>>>> >>>>> The cranking RPM appears to be normal, but I have no way to measure >>>>> the actual RPM, that I can think of. I did watch the EM-3 during >>>>> cranking, but I did not see any RPM indication on the display. It >>>>> stayed at zero the whole time, but that may be normal. I don't know. >>>>> >>>>> Steve >>>>> >>>>> Ed Anderson wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Ok, with a separate battery powering the EC2/3 then you wouldn't >>>>>> think >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> cranking load shouldn't drop that source voltage but if >>>>>> interconnected >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> - it >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> may. However, if the battery cranking the engine is low or >>>>>> >>>>>> >>> dropping >>> >>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> too >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> much voltage, your engine may not be making the two revs at the >>>>>> required 150 rpm. However, in that case, I wouldn't think you would >>>>>> >>>>>> >>> >>> >>>>>> even get the first spark. >>>>>> >>>>>> Just my 0.02 >>>>>> >>>>>> Ed Anderson >>>>>> >>>>>> Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered >>>>>> >>>>>> Matthews, NC >>>>>> >>>>>> eanderson@carolina.rr.com >>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.andersonee.com >>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html >>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.flyrotary.com/ >>>>>> >>>>>> http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW >>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] >>>>>> On Behalf Of Steve Brooks >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 7:35 AM >>>>>> To: Rotary motors in aircraft >>>>>> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Battery Location[FlyRotary] Re: No start >>>>>> after engine replacement >>>>>> >>>>>> Ed, >>>>>> That sounds like a good explanation for what I am seeing. The >>>>>> battery >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> is about two years old. It is an Odyssey PC680. I have two >>>>>> batteries, one sits on the rear spar and runs all of the engine >>>>>> stuff, >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> and the other one is in the nose an runs the avionics. I have pretty >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>> heavy cables running from the battery to the engine, 0 gauge as I >>>>>> recall, and they are not very long. Maybe 5 ft for the one hooked to >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>> the started, and 3 ft for the one ground connected to the engine >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> block. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> I will check the voltage as you suggested while cranking, I also >>>>>> have >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> an emergency bypass switch where I cant power the engine critical >>>>>> buss >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> from the front battery, so that would also be a quick test, as I >>>>>> could >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> crank from the rear battery and power the EC-2 and coils from the >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> front. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> I just installed the EC-3, so I'm not too familiar with it yet. I >>>>>> will see if it shows the RPM during cranking. I'm not sure if it >>>>>> does >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> or not. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Steve >>>>>> >>>>>> Ed Anderson wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> Steve, where is your battery located? Engine compartment or nose?? >>>>>>> Long leads can drop a lot of voltage under cranking current. New >>>>>>> engine >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> may >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> have higher compression and may take more juice than previous >>>>>>> engine to turn it over fast enough. The fact that your old >>>>>>> engine was also hard to start makes me wonder. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Ed >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Ed Anderson >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Matthews, NC >>>>>>> >>>>>>> eanderson@carolina.rr.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://www.andersonee.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://www.flyrotary.com/ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] >>>>>>> On Behalf Of Steve Brooks >>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 4:46 PM >>>>>>> To: Rotary motors in aircraft >>>>>>> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: No start after engine replacement >>>>>>> >>>>>>> That's interesting. I had not made any changes to mode 8, but it is >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>> certainly easy enough to reset it to default. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Steve >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Steven W. Boese wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Steve, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> It might be useful to reset the EC2 timing mode 8 setting to the >>>>>>>> default >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> setting. My EC2's do not produce consistent or strong sparks at >>>>>>> RPM's >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> less >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> than about 1200 if the EC2 timing is advanced using mode 8. The >>>>>>> greater >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> the >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> advance, the weaker the spark. Occasionally there will be a strong >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>> >>> >>>>>>> spark, but the timing on these is very retarded. With my EC2's, the >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>> most consistent low RPM sparks are obtained at the most retarded >>>>>>> mode >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> 8 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> setting, >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> but the EC2 must be receiving CAS signals (engine running) in order >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>> >>> >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> make >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> this change. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Steve Boese >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>>>> From: Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On >>>>>>>> Behalf >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>> Of >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> Steve Brooks [cozy4pilot@gmail.com] >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 1:09 PM >>>>>>>> To: Rotary motors in aircraft >>>>>>>> Subject: [FlyRotary] No start after engine replacement >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I replaced my original engine with another newly rebuilt block, and >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>> also added the EM-3 to the installation. The old engine was hard to >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>> start, and was also making a ticking noise when it did start, which >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>> didn't used to be there. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> After several failed attempts, and double checking the connections, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>> I had a neighbor help me do some testing. While the ignition test >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> runs fine, when checking one of the plugs, it sparks when I >>>>>>>> initially crank the engine, and then stops. Once in a while there >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> will be another spark, but not very often. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I reinstalled the original CAS and have the same issue. I have >>>>>>>> double checked the CAS connections and checked them with an ohm >>>>>>>> meter to the connector on the EC-2 also. Everything seems to check >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>> >>> >>>>>>>> out, yet I get only that initial spark. I have replaced the >>>>>>>> spark plugs with new ones, and whenever I pull one to check it, >>>>>>>> is is wet >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>> with fuel, which is no surprise. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I am wondering if anyone has seen this type of problem, or if >>>>>>>> you have any suggestions. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Regards, >>>>>>>> Steve Brooks >>>>>>>> Cozy MKIV 13B turbo >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: >>>>>>> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >>>>>>> >>>>>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> signature >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> database 3267 (20080714) __________ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://www.eset.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> signature >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> database 3267 (20080714) __________ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://www.eset.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: >>>>>> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >>>>>> >>>>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >>>>>> signature database 3267 (20080714) __________ >>>>>> >>>>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.eset.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >>>>> Archive and UnSub: >>>>> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >>>>> Archive and UnSub: >>>>> >>>>> >>>> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> -- >>>> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >>>> Archive and UnSub: >>>> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >>>> Archive and UnSub: >>>> >>>> >>> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >>> >>> >>>> >>>> >>> -- >>> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >>> Archive and UnSub: >>> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >>> >>> -- >>> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >>> Archive and UnSub: >>> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >>> >>> >>> >> -- >> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >> Archive and UnSub: >> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >> >> > > > -- > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > Archive and UnSub: > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature > database 3267 (20080714) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > > > > -- > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html > >