X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from [66.219.56.245] (HELO mail.qnsi.net) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3c1) with ESMTP id 3961318 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 08 Nov 2009 12:34:18 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=66.219.56.245; envelope-from=bhughes@qnsi.net Return-Receipt-To: "Bobby J. Hughes" Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Re: Battery Location[FlyRotary] Re: No start after engine replacement Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2009 11:37:30 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID: <74120FDE88CAFE4DBDA8814BCE20A3F315EE88@qnsi-mail.qnsi.net> Disposition-Notification-To: "Bobby J. Hughes" Content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [FlyRotary] Re: Battery Location[FlyRotary] Re: No start after engine replacement Thread-Index: AcpgmHbU2M/wnXJkSPGwDx46D/uGWwAAMP/Q X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 References: From: "Bobby J. Hughes" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" =20 Steve, I found my notes. When my CAS circuit was not working my plugs were dry. This tracks with Steve Boese's test. Check for injector voltage curing cranking. Might be easier to check at the EM3. If no FI voltage or spark during cranking I would say it's a CAS circuit problem.=20 Bobby -----Original Message----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Steve Brooks Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 11:20 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Battery Location[FlyRotary] Re: No start after engine replacement Bobby, The 2nd gen CAS is 4 wires, though two of them get hooked together. =20 I've doubled checked those connections tot he EC-2 and verified continuity lead by lead. I've never tried to look at the CAS signal, and I'm not sure what it looks like. But, my test equipment is limited to a digital voltmeter, and a logic probe. I wish that I still had an oscilloscope at time like this. Nothing like a picture. Bobby J. Hughes wrote: > Steve, > > Sure sounds like the same symptoms I observed with my CAS problems. I=20 > know the Renesis CAS is different. Is your CAS a two wire circuit. If=20 > so I would try reversing the CAS wires at the EC3. If the EC3 is=20 > lowering the CAS voltage (speculation on my part) I would want the=20 > voltage correction on the CAS output to the EC3. If on the input the=20 > voltage might be to low during cranking. Just speculation. > > Bobby > > -----Original Message----- > From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net]=20 > On Behalf Of Steve Brooks > Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 10:52 AM > To: Rotary motors in aircraft > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Battery Location[FlyRotary] Re: No start=20 > after engine replacement > > I've been testing it all morning, and while I have tested it in a=20 > number of ways, I still have no clue why I'm not getting consistent spark. > I pulled a plug from each rotor, and clamped it to a ground, so that=20 > first of all, the engine would spin faster with a plug out of each=20 > rotor, and second, I could see two spark plugs instead of just one. > > I probably did 15-20 cranks of 5 seconds each. I "usually" get an=20 > inital spark off of the front rotor and nothing else, but there were=20 > times that it didn't spark at all, and once that it sparked once after > 2 or 3 seconds of cranking. > > On the rear rotor, I do not get the initial spark, but it does spark=20 > maybe 5 or 6 times during 5 seconds of cranking, but very hit and miss. > > I might see two close together, followed by nothing for a second or two. > > I checked the coil wiring from the EC-2 plug to the GM wiring harness=20 > connector, and all was perfect. I also pulled two connector off of=20 > the > LS1 coils and checked for continuity. Still no issue. since I had=20 > one apart, I decided to hook up the logic probe to the trigger pin. =20 > With the master on, I see a low signal, and when I start cranking, the > low signal goes away. Though I could not see any LEDs on the probe=20 > blink, when I flipped the switch to pulses, it was showing steady pulses. > Obviously of a very short duration, or I should have seen the high /=20 > low LED's blinking. I am guessing that since the low signal goes away > when cranking, the EC-2 must be seeing a sufficient RPM from the CAS. > But this is guessing. > I also verified all of the power andf grounds to the coils and EC-2. =20 > I am just not finding anything wrong in the wiring. I had redone the=20 > wiring, and although I was pretty careful about tagging everything,=20 > there is always a risk of getting something wrong, but I checked and=20 > double checked with nothing out of place. > > I ran the mode 8 test again to watch both plugs I had out, and it=20 > produces consistent sparks that are bright blue. > > The only wiring that I haven't double checked is the new wiring to the > EM-3. But, there aren't many connections from the EM-3 to the EC-2,=20 > and the EM-3 seems to be communicating with the EC-2,as I am not=20 > getting the "NO-OP" that I have heard others talk about. I really=20 > have not messed with the EM-3 much so far though, because I've first=20 > been trying to get the engine started. > > Right now, I'm recharging the battery. > > Steve > > > Bobby J. Hughes wrote: > =20 >> Steve, >> >> My CAS was always wired correctly also. My coils \ plugs fired in=20 >> test >> =20 > > =20 >> mode but not during cranking. Are you having problems with one plugs=20 >> during cranking are all plugs? >> >> Bobby >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] >> On Behalf Of Steve Brooks >> Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 9:11 AM >> To: Rotary motors in aircraft >> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Battery Location[FlyRotary] Re: No start=20 >> after engine replacement >> >> I am running an 89-91 13B engine. Both engines were JDM engines, so=20 >> I >> =20 > > =20 >> assume that the CAS is the correct one. I had about 60 flight hours=20 >> on the origianl engine, and the new CAS is identical to the old one,=20 >> so I think it is correct. >> >> I did have the controller upgraded for the EC-3, but I beleive that=20 >> Tracy tested it also. I don't have anything in between the CAS and=20 >> EC-2, it is just wired per the EC-2 manual. >> >> Steve >> >> Bobby J. Hughes wrote: >> =20 >> =20 >>> =20 >>> >>> Steve, >>> >>> You mention you changed CAS with the new engine and then replaced it >>> with you old CAS. Three questions. >>> >>> Did you have any kind of external circuit between the original CAS=20 >>> and >>> =20 >>> =20 >> =20 >> =20 >>> the EC2? Diode matrix etc. >>> >>> Did your EC2 go back to Tracy for upgrades between last time it was=20 >>> running and the new engine \ CAS. >>> >>> Are you sure you have he correct CAS for your engine \ EC2 version.=20 >>> >>> >>> I had a problem with upgrades \ CAS but it was on a renesis. Very=20 >>> similar to what your describing. >>> >>> Before first start I installed the diode matrix what was being=20 >>> tested >>> =20 > > =20 >>> and used by some folks. Engine started fine. >>> I sent my EC2 back to Tracy for upgrades and I believe he put the >>> =20 >>> =20 >> "fix" >> =20 >> =20 >>> on the EC2 during upgrades. When I reinstalled the EM2 it would not=20 >>> start. I ended up removing the external diodes and the engine=20 >>> started >>> =20 > > =20 >>> right up. Problem solved...sort of. >>> I then started having the high rpm cutout problem because of high=20 >>> CAS >>> =20 > > =20 >>> voltage. But first I let one sparkplug fall off the engine during=20 >>> testing and it smoked the EC2. So back to Tracy it went. I ended up=20 >>> installing a different resistor \ zener diode circuit that Dennis H=20 >>> and Mark S are using to control the voltage at high rpms. Tracy was=20 >>> at >>> =20 >>> =20 >> =20 >> =20 >>> a loss as to why I needed the external circuit with the mod's he has >>> made to my EC2. >>> >>> Bobby Hughes >>> RV10, Gen 1 (low oil pressure) Super Renesis ...err >>> 25 hrs in Phase 1, 68 hrs total engine time.=20 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> I measured the voltage on the engine power buss, and with the master >>> switch on, it is 12.5 VDC. While cranking the voltage drops to 10.2 >>> VDC. I'm not sure what is normal, so I'm interested in any thoughts >>> on that. >>> >>> I switched the engine bus over to the front battery, and I was=20 >>> surprised to see that while cranking the voltage dropped to 9.5 >>> =20 > volts. > =20 >>> =20 >>> =20 >> =20 >> =20 >>> It has a rather long wire running from the front to the rear of the=20 >>> aircraft, so perhaps I am dropping some voltage since it is powering >>> the coils, injectors, fuel pump, etc., though for this test, I did=20 >>> not >>> =20 >>> =20 >> =20 >> =20 >>> have the fuel pump turned on. >>> >>> I know that it does maintain the engine already running, which is=20 >>> really what I intended with the emergency power bypass. >>> >>> The cranking RPM appears to be normal, but I have no way to measure=20 >>> the actual RPM, that I can think of. I did watch the EM-3 during=20 >>> cranking, but I did not see any RPM indication on the display. It=20 >>> stayed at zero the whole time, but that may be normal. I don't know. >>> >>> Steve >>> >>> Ed Anderson wrote: >>> =20 >>> =20 >>> =20 >>>> Ok, with a separate battery powering the EC2/3 then you wouldn't=20 >>>> think >>>> =20 >>>> =20 >>>> =20 >>> =20 >>> =20 >>> =20 >>>> cranking load shouldn't drop that source voltage but if=20 >>>> interconnected >>>> =20 >>>> =20 >>>> =20 >>> - it >>> =20 >>> =20 >>> =20 >>>> may. However, if the battery cranking the engine is low or >>>> =20 > dropping > =20 >>>> =20 >>>> =20 >>>> =20 >>> too >>> =20 >>> =20 >>> =20 >>>> much voltage, your engine may not be making the two revs at the=20 >>>> required 150 rpm. However, in that case, I wouldn't think you=20 >>>> would >>>> =20 > > =20 >>>> even get the first spark. >>>> >>>> Just my 0.02 >>>> >>>> Ed Anderson >>>> >>>> Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered >>>> >>>> Matthews, NC >>>> >>>> eanderson@carolina.rr.com >>>> >>>> http://www.andersonee.com >>>> >>>> http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html >>>> >>>> http://www.flyrotary.com/ >>>> >>>> http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW >>>> >>>> http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 >>>> [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] >>>> On Behalf Of Steve Brooks >>>> Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 7:35 AM >>>> To: Rotary motors in aircraft >>>> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Battery Location[FlyRotary] Re: No start=20 >>>> after engine replacement >>>> >>>> Ed, >>>> That sounds like a good explanation for what I am seeing. The=20 >>>> battery >>>> =20 >>>> =20 >>>> =20 >>> =20 >>> =20 >>> =20 >>>> is about two years old. It is an Odyssey PC680. I have two=20 >>>> batteries, one sits on the rear spar and runs all of the engine=20 >>>> stuff, >>>> =20 >>>> =20 >>>> =20 >>> =20 >>> =20 >>> =20 >>>> and the other one is in the nose an runs the avionics. I have=20 >>>> pretty >>>> =20 >>>> =20 >> =20 >> =20 >>>> heavy cables running from the battery to the engine, 0 gauge as I=20 >>>> recall, and they are not very long. Maybe 5 ft for the one hooked=20 >>>> to >>>> =20 >>>> =20 >> =20 >> =20 >>>> the started, and 3 ft for the one ground connected to the engine >>>> =20 >>>> =20 >>>> =20 >>> block. >>> =20 >>> =20 >>> =20 >>>> I will check the voltage as you suggested while cranking, I also=20 >>>> have >>>> =20 >>>> =20 >>>> =20 >>> =20 >>> =20 >>> =20 >>>> an emergency bypass switch where I cant power the engine critical=20 >>>> buss >>>> =20 >>>> =20 >>>> =20 >>> =20 >>> =20 >>> =20 >>>> from the front battery, so that would also be a quick test, as I=20 >>>> could >>>> =20 >>>> =20 >>>> =20 >>> =20 >>> =20 >>> =20 >>>> crank from the rear battery and power the EC-2 and coils from the >>>> =20 >>>> =20 >>>> =20 >>> front. >>> =20 >>> =20 >>> =20 >>>> I just installed the EC-3, so I'm not too familiar with it yet. I=20 >>>> will see if it shows the RPM during cranking. I'm not sure if it=20 >>>> does >>>> =20 >>>> =20 >>>> =20 >>> or not. >>> =20 >>> =20 >>> =20 >>>> Steve >>>> >>>> Ed Anderson wrote: >>>> =20 >>>> =20 >>>> =20 >>>> =20 >>>>> Steve, where is your battery located? Engine compartment or nose?? >>>>> Long leads can drop a lot of voltage under cranking current. New=20 >>>>> engine >>>>> =20 >>>>> =20 >>>>> =20 >>>>> =20 >>>> may >>>> =20 >>>> =20 >>>> =20 >>>> =20 >>>>> have higher compression and may take more juice than previous=20 >>>>> engine to turn it over fast enough. The fact that your old engine >>>>> was also hard to start makes me wonder. >>>>> >>>>> Ed >>>>> >>>>> Ed Anderson >>>>> >>>>> Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered >>>>> >>>>> Matthews, NC >>>>> >>>>> eanderson@carolina.rr.com >>>>> >>>>> http://www.andersonee.com >>>>> >>>>> http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html >>>>> >>>>> http://www.flyrotary.com/ >>>>> >>>>> http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW >>>>> >>>>> http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: Rotary motors in aircraft >>>>> [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] >>>>> On Behalf Of Steve Brooks >>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 4:46 PM >>>>> To: Rotary motors in aircraft >>>>> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: No start after engine replacement >>>>> >>>>> That's interesting. I had not made any changes to mode 8, but it=20 >>>>> is >>>>> =20 >>>>> =20 >> =20 >> =20 >>>>> certainly easy enough to reset it to default. >>>>> >>>>> Steve >>>>> >>>>> Steven W. Boese wrote: >>>>> =20 >>>>> =20 >>>>> =20 >>>>> =20 >>>>> =20 >>>>>> Steve, >>>>>> >>>>>> It might be useful to reset the EC2 timing mode 8 setting to the=20 >>>>>> default >>>>>> =20 >>>>>> =20 >>>>>> =20 >>>>>> =20 >>>>>> =20 >>>>> setting. My EC2's do not produce consistent or strong sparks at=20 >>>>> RPM's >>>>> =20 >>>>> =20 >>>>> =20 >>>>> =20 >>>> less >>>> =20 >>>> =20 >>>> =20 >>>> =20 >>>>> than about 1200 if the EC2 timing is advanced using mode 8. The=20 >>>>> greater >>>>> =20 >>>>> =20 >>>>> =20 >>>>> =20 >>>> the >>>> =20 >>>> =20 >>>> =20 >>>> =20 >>>>> advance, the weaker the spark. Occasionally there will be a=20 >>>>> strong >>>>> =20 > > =20 >>>>> spark, but the timing on these is very retarded. With my EC2's,=20 >>>>> the >>>>> =20 >>>>> =20 >> =20 >> =20 >>>>> most consistent low RPM sparks are obtained at the most retarded=20 >>>>> mode >>>>> =20 >>>>> =20 >>>>> =20 >>> =20 >>> =20 >>> =20 >>>>> 8 >>>>> =20 >>>>> =20 >>>>> =20 >>>>> =20 >>>> setting, >>>> =20 >>>> =20 >>>> =20 >>>> =20 >>>>> but the EC2 must be receiving CAS signals (engine running) in=20 >>>>> order >>>>> =20 > > =20 >>>>> to >>>>> =20 >>>>> =20 >>>>> =20 >>>>> =20 >>>> make >>>> =20 >>>> =20 >>>> =20 >>>> =20 >>>>> this change. >>>>> =20 >>>>> =20 >>>>> =20 >>>>> =20 >>>>> =20 >>>>>> Steve Boese >>>>>> >>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>> From: Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On=20 >>>>>> Behalf >>>>>> =20 >>>>>> =20 >>>>>> =20 >>>>>> =20 >>>> Of >>>> =20 >>>> =20 >>>> =20 >>>> =20 >>>>>> =20 >>>>>> =20 >>>>>> =20 >>>>>> =20 >>>>>> =20 >>>>> Steve Brooks [cozy4pilot@gmail.com] >>>>> =20 >>>>> =20 >>>>> =20 >>>>> =20 >>>>> =20 >>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 1:09 PM >>>>>> To: Rotary motors in aircraft >>>>>> Subject: [FlyRotary] No start after engine replacement >>>>>> >>>>>> I replaced my original engine with another newly rebuilt block,=20 >>>>>> and >>>>>> =20 >>>>>> =20 >> =20 >> =20 >>>>>> also added the EM-3 to the installation. The old engine was hard=20 >>>>>> to >>>>>> =20 >>>>>> =20 >> =20 >> =20 >>>>>> start, and was also making a ticking noise when it did start,=20 >>>>>> which >>>>>> =20 >>>>>> =20 >> =20 >> =20 >>>>>> didn't used to be there. >>>>>> >>>>>> After several failed attempts, and double checking the=20 >>>>>> connections, >>>>>> =20 >>>>>> =20 >> =20 >> =20 >>>>>> I had a neighbor help me do some testing. While the ignition=20 >>>>>> test >>>>>> =20 > > =20 >>>>>> runs fine, when checking one of the plugs, it sparks when I=20 >>>>>> initially crank the engine, and then stops. Once in a while=20 >>>>>> there >>>>>> =20 > > =20 >>>>>> will be another spark, but not very often. >>>>>> >>>>>> I reinstalled the original CAS and have the same issue. I have=20 >>>>>> double checked the CAS connections and checked them with an ohm=20 >>>>>> meter to the connector on the EC-2 also. Everything seems to=20 >>>>>> check >>>>>> =20 > > =20 >>>>>> out, yet I get only that initial spark. I have replaced the spark >>>>>> plugs with new ones, and whenever I pull one to check it, is is=20 >>>>>> wet >>>>>> =20 >>>>>> =20 >> =20 >> =20 >>>>>> with fuel, which is no surprise. >>>>>> >>>>>> I am wondering if anyone has seen this type of problem, or if you >>>>>> have any suggestions. >>>>>> >>>>>> Regards, >>>>>> Steve Brooks >>>>>> Cozy MKIV 13B turbo >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: >>>>>> =20 >>>>>> =20 >>>>>> =20 >>>>>> =20 >>>>>> =20 >>>>> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >>>>> =20 >>>>> =20 >>>>> =20 >>>>> =20 >>>>> =20 >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: >>>>>> =20 >>>>>> =20 >>>>>> =20 >>>>>> =20 >>>>>> =20 >>>>> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >>>>> =20 >>>>> =20 >>>>> =20 >>>>> =20 >>>>> =20 >>>>>> =20 >>>>>> =20 >>>>>> =20 >>>>>> =20 >>>>>> =20 >>>>>> =20 >>>>> -- >>>>> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: >>>>> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >>>>> >>>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >>>>> =20 >>>>> =20 >>>>> =20 >>>>> =20 >>>> signature >>>> =20 >>>> =20 >>>> =20 >>>> =20 >>>>> database 3267 (20080714) __________ >>>>> >>>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>>>> >>>>> http://www.eset.com >>>>> >>>>> =20 >>>>> >>>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >>>>> =20 >>>>> =20 >>>>> =20 >>>>> =20 >>>> signature >>>> =20 >>>> =20 >>>> =20 >>>> =20 >>>>> database 3267 (20080714) __________ >>>>> >>>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>>>> >>>>> http://www.eset.com >>>>> =20 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: >>>>> =20 >>>>> =20 >>>>> =20 >>>>> =20 >>>> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >>>> =20 >>>> =20 >>>> =20 >>>> =20 >>>>> =20 >>>>> =20 >>>>> =20 >>>>> =20 >>>>> =20 >>>> -- >>>> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: >>>> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >>>> >>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus=20 >>>> signature database 3267 (20080714) __________ >>>> >>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>>> >>>> http://www.eset.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: >>>> =20 >>>> =20 >>>> =20 >>> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >>> =20 >>> =20 >>> =20 >>>> =20 >>>> =20 >>>> =20 >>>> =20 >>> -- >>> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: >>> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >>> >>> -- >>> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: >>> =20 >>> =20 >> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >> =20 >> =20 >>> =20 >>> =20 >>> =20 >> -- >> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >> Archive and UnSub: >> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >> >> -- >> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >> Archive and UnSub: >> =20 > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html > =20 >> =20 >> =20 > > > -- > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > Archive and UnSub: > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html > > -- > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html > > =20 -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html