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That is quite interesting. You must have quite a test bench set up for running these tests. Sounds like my 10,2 volts during cranking should be plenty of voltage to produce a good spark. As I said before, my engine is a 89-91, I do have the GM LS1 coils and high impedance injectors, so no resistors. I haven't checked an injector while cranking, but since I'm getting wet plugs, I am guessing that they are pulsing. I would have to pull the fuel rail out to get to the connectors (tight fit), but I had though about doing that, if for no other reason to verify that the front pri/sec and rear pri/sec are wired correctly. But I thought of that just before discovering the spark issue. I will see if I can verify that the injectors are firing. That would probably be a good thing to verify. Steven W. Boese wrote: Steve, I thought I should clarify the information I posted previously. The EC2's that I have which exhibit ignition anomalies at low RPM are used with a 1986 13B with that engine's standard CAS, GM ignition coils, and stock low resistance injectors with the recommended resistors. Both EC2's were updated within the last year. I am not trying to say that all EC2's behave the same as mine. Last night I did some checking on my setup and found that when the starting RPM is below 150, there is no spark. When there is no spark, the fuel injectors are not operating either. This is reasonable if the low RPM limit is due to the self generated signal from the CAS being too small for the EC2 to detect reliably. Since both the ignition and fuel delivery are not operating below the minumum RPM necessary, it would seem unlikely that I would get a lot of fuel in the engine if my engine were not cranking fast enough. I also put a load on the battery and observed the operation of the system as the voltage at the battery dropped. Both the ignition and injectors operated normally until the voltage dropped to about 6.2 volts. At this point the ignition would drop out above around 3600 RPM. At lower RPM, things operated normally until the voltage reached to 4.8 volts when the EC2 stopped working. There was spark at all plugs and all the injectors were working up to that point. This was without fuel pressure on the injectors and with the spark plugs in open air. The spark intensity may have dropped as the battery voltage dropped, but the sparks were consistent and the sudden transition to strong sparks when RPM exceeded about 1200 was still obvious at all voltages above 4.8. As stated initially, YMMV. Steve Boese ________________________________________ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Steve Brooks [cozy4pilot@gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 8:10 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Battery Location[FlyRotary] Re: No start after engine replacement I am running an 89-91 13B engine. Both engines were JDM engines, so I assume that the CAS is the correct one. I had about 60 flight hours on the origianl engine, and the new CAS is identical to the old one, so I think it is correct. I did have the controller upgraded for the EC-3, but I beleive that Tracy tested it also. I don't have anything in between the CAS and EC-2, it is just wired per the EC-2 manual. Steve Bobby J. Hughes wrote: Steve, You mention you changed CAS with the new engine and then replaced it with you old CAS. Three questions. Did you have any kind of external circuit between the original CAS and the EC2? Diode matrix etc. Did your EC2 go back to Tracy for upgrades between last time it was running and the new engine \ CAS. Are you sure you have he correct CAS for your engine \ EC2 version. I had a problem with upgrades \ CAS but it was on a renesis. Very similar to what your describing. Before first start I installed the diode matrix what was being tested and used by some folks. Engine started fine. I sent my EC2 back to Tracy for upgrades and I believe he put the "fix" on the EC2 during upgrades. When I reinstalled the EM2 it would not start. I ended up removing the external diodes and the engine started right up. Problem solved...sort of. I then started having the high rpm cutout problem because of high CAS voltage. But first I let one sparkplug fall off the engine during testing and it smoked the EC2. So back to Tracy it went. I ended up installing a different resistor \ zener diode circuit that Dennis H and Mark S are using to control the voltage at high rpms. Tracy was at a loss as to why I needed the external circuit with the mod's he has made to my EC2. Bobby Hughes RV10, Gen 1 (low oil pressure) Super Renesis ...err 25 hrs in Phase 1, 68 hrs total engine time. I measured the voltage on the engine power buss, and with the master switch on, it is 12.5 VDC. While cranking the voltage drops to 10.2 VDC. I'm not sure what is normal, so I'm interested in any thoughts on that. I switched the engine bus over to the front battery, and I was surprised to see that while cranking the voltage dropped to 9.5 volts. It has a rather long wire running from the front to the rear of the aircraft, so perhaps I am dropping some voltage since it is powering the coils, injectors, fuel pump, etc., though for this test, I did not have the fuel pump turned on. I know that it does maintain the engine already running, which is really what I intended with the emergency power bypass. The cranking RPM appears to be normal, but I have no way to measure the actual RPM, that I can think of. I did watch the EM-3 during cranking, but I did not see any RPM indication on the display. It stayed at zero the whole time, but that may be normal. I don't know. Steve Ed Anderson wrote: Ok, with a separate battery powering the EC2/3 then you wouldn't think cranking load shouldn't drop that source voltage but if interconnected - it may. However, if the battery cranking the engine is low or dropping too much voltage, your engine may not be making the two revs at the required 150 rpm. However, in that case, I wouldn't think you would even get the first spark. Just my 0.02 Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com http://www.andersonee.com http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html http://www.flyrotary.com/ http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm -----Original Message----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Steve Brooks Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 7:35 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Battery Location[FlyRotary] Re: No start after engine replacement Ed, That sounds like a good explanation for what I am seeing. The battery is about two years old. It is an Odyssey PC680. I have two batteries, one sits on the rear spar and runs all of the engine stuff, and the other one is in the nose an runs the avionics. I have pretty heavy cables running from the battery to the engine, 0 gauge as I recall, and they are not very long. Maybe 5 ft for the one hooked to the started, and 3 ft for the one ground connected to the engine block. I will check the voltage as you suggested while cranking, I also have an emergency bypass switch where I cant power the engine critical buss from the front battery, so that would also be a quick test, as I could crank from the rear battery and power the EC-2 and coils from the front. I just installed the EC-3, so I'm not too familiar with it yet. I will see if it shows the RPM during cranking. I'm not sure if it does or not. Steve Ed Anderson wrote: Steve, where is your battery located? Engine compartment or nose?? Long leads can drop a lot of voltage under cranking current. New engine may have higher compression and may take more juice than previous engine to turn it over fast enough. The fact that your old engine was also hard to start makes me wonder. Ed Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com http://www.andersonee.com http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html http://www.flyrotary.com/ http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm -----Original Message----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Steve Brooks Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 4:46 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: No start after engine replacement That's interesting. I had not made any changes to mode 8, but it is certainly easy enough to reset it to default. Steve Steven W. Boese wrote: Steve, It might be useful to reset the EC2 timing mode 8 setting to the default setting. My EC2's do not produce consistent or strong sparks at RPM's less than about 1200 if the EC2 timing is advanced using mode 8. The greater the advance, the weaker the spark. Occasionally there will be a strong spark, but the timing on these is very retarded. With my EC2's, the most consistent low RPM sparks are obtained at the most retarded mode 8 setting, but the EC2 must be receiving CAS signals (engine running) in order to make this change. Steve Boese ________________________________________ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Steve Brooks [cozy4pilot@gmail.com] Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 1:09 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] No start after engine replacement I replaced my original engine with another newly rebuilt block, and also added the EM-3 to the installation. The old engine was hard to start, and was also making a ticking noise when it did start, which didn't used to be there. After several failed attempts, and double checking the connections, I had a neighbor help me do some testing. While the ignition test runs fine, when checking one of the plugs, it sparks when I initially crank the engine, and then stops. Once in a while there will be another spark, but not very often. I reinstalled the original CAS and have the same issue. I have double checked the CAS connections and checked them with an ohm meter to the connector on the EC-2 also. Everything seems to check out, yet I get only that initial spark. I have replaced the spark plugs with new ones, and whenever I pull one to check it, is is wet with fuel, which is no surprise. I am wondering if anyone has seen this type of problem, or if you have any suggestions. Regards, Steve Brooks Cozy MKIV 13B turbo -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3267 (20080714) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3267 (20080714) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3267 (20080714) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html