flyrotary@lancaironline.net Mailing List Archive

Steve, I thought I should clarify the information I posted previously. The EC2's that I have which exhibit ignition anomalies at low RPM are used with a 1986 13B with that engine's standard CAS, GM ignition coils, and stock low resistance injectors with the recommended resistors. Both EC2's were updated within the last year. I am not trying to say that all EC2's behave the same as mine. Last night I did some checking on my setup and found that when the starting RPM is below 150, there is no spark. When there is no spark, the fuel injectors are not operating either. This is reasonable if the low RPM limit is due to the self generated signal from the CAS being too small for the EC2 to detect reliably. Since both the ignition and fuel delivery are not operating below the minumum RPM necessary, it would seem unlikely that I would get a lot of fuel in the engine if my engine were not cranking fast enough. I also put a load on the battery and observed the operation of the system as the voltage at the battery dropped. Both the ignition and injectors operated normally until the voltage dropped to about 6.2 volts. At this point the ignition would drop out above around 3600 RPM. At lower RPM, things operated normally until the voltage reached to 4.8 volts when the EC2 stopped working. There was spark at all plugs and all the injectors were working up to that point. This was without fuel pressure on the injectors and with the spark plugs in open air. The spark intensity may have dropped as the battery voltage dropped, but the sparks were consistent and the sudden transition to strong sparks when RPM exceeded about 1200 was still obvious at all voltages above 4.8. As stated initially, YMMV. Steve Boese ________________________________________ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Steve Brooks [cozy4pilot@gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 8:10 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Battery Location[FlyRotary] Re: No start after engine replacement I am running an 89-91 13B engine. Both engines were JDM engines, so I assume that the CAS is the correct one. I had about 60 flight hours on the origianl engine, and the new CAS is identical to the old one, so I think it is correct. I did have the controller upgraded for the EC-3, but I beleive that Tracy tested it also. I don't have anything in between the CAS and EC-2, it is just wired per the EC-2 manual. Steve Bobby J. Hughes wrote: > > > Steve, > > You mention you changed CAS with the new engine and then replaced it > with you old CAS. Three questions. > > Did you have any kind of external circuit between the original CAS and > the EC2? Diode matrix etc. > > Did your EC2 go back to Tracy for upgrades between last time it was > running and the new engine \ CAS. > > Are you sure you have he correct CAS for your engine \ EC2 version. > > > I had a problem with upgrades \ CAS but it was on a renesis. Very > similar to what your describing. > > Before first start I installed the diode matrix what was being tested > and used by some folks. Engine started fine. > I sent my EC2 back to Tracy for upgrades and I believe he put the "fix" > on the EC2 during upgrades. When I reinstalled the EM2 it would not > start. I ended up removing the external diodes and the engine started > right up. Problem solved...sort of. > I then started having the high rpm cutout problem because of high CAS > voltage. But first I let one sparkplug fall off the engine during > testing and it smoked the EC2. So back to Tracy it went. I ended up > installing a different resistor \ zener diode circuit that Dennis H and > Mark S are using to control the voltage at high rpms. Tracy was at a > loss as to why I needed the external circuit with the mod's he has made > to my EC2. > > Bobby Hughes > RV10, Gen 1 (low oil pressure) Super Renesis ...err > 25 hrs in Phase 1, 68 hrs total engine time. > > > > > > I measured the voltage on the engine power buss, and with the master > switch on, it is 12.5 VDC. While cranking the voltage drops to 10.2 > VDC. I'm not sure what is normal, so I'm interested in any thoughts on > that. > > I switched the engine bus over to the front battery, and I was surprised > to see that while cranking the voltage dropped to 9.5 volts. It has a > rather long wire running from the front to the rear of the aircraft, so > perhaps I am dropping some voltage since it is powering the coils, > injectors, fuel pump, etc., though for this test, I did not have the > fuel pump turned on. > > I know that it does maintain the engine already running, which is really > what I intended with the emergency power bypass. > > The cranking RPM appears to be normal, but I have no way to measure the > actual RPM, that I can think of. I did watch the EM-3 during cranking, > but I did not see any RPM indication on the display. It stayed at zero > the whole time, but that may be normal. I don't know. > > Steve > > Ed Anderson wrote: > >> Ok, with a separate battery powering the EC2/3 then you wouldn't think >> > > >> cranking load shouldn't drop that source voltage but if interconnected >> > - it > >> may. However, if the battery cranking the engine is low or dropping >> > too > >> much voltage, your engine may not be making the two revs at the >> required 150 rpm. However, in that case, I wouldn't think you would >> even get the first spark. >> >> Just my 0.02 >> >> Ed Anderson >> >> Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered >> >> Matthews, NC >> >> eanderson@carolina.rr.com >> >> http://www.andersonee.com >> >> http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html >> >> http://www.flyrotary.com/ >> >> http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW >> >> http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] >> On Behalf Of Steve Brooks >> Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 7:35 AM >> To: Rotary motors in aircraft >> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Battery Location[FlyRotary] Re: No start >> after engine replacement >> >> Ed, >> That sounds like a good explanation for what I am seeing. The battery >> > > >> is about two years old. It is an Odyssey PC680. I have two >> batteries, one sits on the rear spar and runs all of the engine stuff, >> > > >> and the other one is in the nose an runs the avionics. I have pretty >> heavy cables running from the battery to the engine, 0 gauge as I >> recall, and they are not very long. Maybe 5 ft for the one hooked to >> the started, and 3 ft for the one ground connected to the engine >> > block. > >> I will check the voltage as you suggested while cranking, I also have >> > > >> an emergency bypass switch where I cant power the engine critical buss >> > > >> from the front battery, so that would also be a quick test, as I could >> > > >> crank from the rear battery and power the EC-2 and coils from the >> > front. > >> I just installed the EC-3, so I'm not too familiar with it yet. I >> will see if it shows the RPM during cranking. I'm not sure if it does >> > or not. > >> Steve >> >> Ed Anderson wrote: >> >> >>> Steve, where is your battery located? Engine compartment or nose?? >>> Long leads can drop a lot of voltage under cranking current. New >>> engine >>> >>> >> may >> >> >>> have higher compression and may take more juice than previous >>> engine to turn it over fast enough. The fact that your old engine >>> was also hard to start makes me wonder. >>> >>> Ed >>> >>> Ed Anderson >>> >>> Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered >>> >>> Matthews, NC >>> >>> eanderson@carolina.rr.com >>> >>> http://www.andersonee.com >>> >>> http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html >>> >>> http://www.flyrotary.com/ >>> >>> http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW >>> >>> http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] >>> On Behalf Of Steve Brooks >>> Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 4:46 PM >>> To: Rotary motors in aircraft >>> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: No start after engine replacement >>> >>> That's interesting. I had not made any changes to mode 8, but it is >>> certainly easy enough to reset it to default. >>> >>> Steve >>> >>> Steven W. Boese wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>> Steve, >>>> >>>> It might be useful to reset the EC2 timing mode 8 setting to the >>>> default >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> setting. My EC2's do not produce consistent or strong sparks at RPM's >>> >>> >> less >> >> >>> than about 1200 if the EC2 timing is advanced using mode 8. The >>> greater >>> >>> >> the >> >> >>> advance, the weaker the spark. Occasionally there will be a strong >>> spark, but the timing on these is very retarded. With my EC2's, the >>> most consistent low RPM sparks are obtained at the most retarded mode >>> > > >>> 8 >>> >>> >> setting, >> >> >>> but the EC2 must be receiving CAS signals (engine running) in order >>> to >>> >>> >> make >> >> >>> this change. >>> >>> >>> >>>> Steve Boese >>>> >>>> ________________________________________ >>>> From: Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On >>>> Behalf >>>> >>>> >> Of >> >> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> Steve Brooks [cozy4pilot@gmail.com] >>> >>> >>> >>>> Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 1:09 PM >>>> To: Rotary motors in aircraft >>>> Subject: [FlyRotary] No start after engine replacement >>>> >>>> I replaced my original engine with another newly rebuilt block, and >>>> also added the EM-3 to the installation. The old engine was hard to >>>> start, and was also making a ticking noise when it did start, which >>>> didn't used to be there. >>>> >>>> After several failed attempts, and double checking the connections, >>>> I had a neighbor help me do some testing. While the ignition test >>>> runs fine, when checking one of the plugs, it sparks when I >>>> initially crank the engine, and then stops. Once in a while there >>>> will be another spark, but not very often. >>>> >>>> I reinstalled the original CAS and have the same issue. I have >>>> double checked the CAS connections and checked them with an ohm >>>> meter to the connector on the EC-2 also. Everything seems to check >>>> out, yet I get only that initial spark. I have replaced the spark >>>> plugs with new ones, and whenever I pull one to check it, is is wet >>>> with fuel, which is no surprise. >>>> >>>> I am wondering if anyone has seen this type of problem, or if you >>>> have any suggestions. >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> Steve Brooks >>>> Cozy MKIV 13B turbo >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >>> >>> >>> >>>> -- >>>> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> -- >>> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >>> Archive and UnSub: >>> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >>> >>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >>> >>> >> signature >> >> >>> database 3267 (20080714) __________ >>> >>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>> >>> http://www.eset.com >>> >>> >>> >>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >>> >>> >> signature >> >> >>> database 3267 (20080714) __________ >>> >>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>> >>> http://www.eset.com >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >>> Archive and UnSub: >>> >>> >> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >> >> >>> >>> >>> >> -- >> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >> Archive and UnSub: >> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >> >> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >> signature database 3267 (20080714) __________ >> >> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >> >> http://www.eset.com >> >> >> >> -- >> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >> Archive and UnSub: >> > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html > >> >> > > > -- > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > Archive and UnSub: > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html > > -- > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html > > -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html