X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from aspensprings.uwyo.edu ([129.72.10.32] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3c1) with ESMTPS id 3961275 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 08 Nov 2009 11:56:44 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=129.72.10.32; envelope-from=SBoese@uwyo.edu Received: from ponyexpress-ht1.uwyo.edu (ponyexpress-ht1.uwyo.edu [10.84.60.208]) by aspensprings.uwyo.edu (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id nA8Gu6qW014404 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Sun, 8 Nov 2009 09:56:06 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from SBoese@uwyo.edu) Received: from ponyexpress-mb5.uwyo.edu ([fe80::9c55:bfd9:7a5b:5a4]) by ponyexpress-ht1 ([10.84.60.208]) with mapi; Sun, 8 Nov 2009 09:56:06 -0700 From: "Steven W. Boese" To: Rotary motors in aircraft Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2009 09:56:06 -0700 Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Re: Battery Location[FlyRotary] Re: No start after engine replacement Thread-Topic: [FlyRotary] Re: Battery Location[FlyRotary] Re: No start after engine replacement Thread-Index: AcpghcCC1n/afSE1Q4mSFQvIZC2U/QACrk9g Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Steve, I thought I should clarify the information I posted previously. The EC2's = that I have which exhibit ignition anomalies at low RPM are used with a 198= 6 13B with that engine's standard CAS, GM ignition coils, and stock low res= istance injectors with the recommended resistors. Both EC2's were updated = within the last year. I am not trying to say that all EC2's behave the sam= e as mine. Last night I did some checking on my setup and found that when the starting= RPM is below 150, there is no spark. When there is no spark, the fuel inj= ectors are not operating either. This is reasonable if the low RPM limit i= s due to the self generated signal from the CAS being too small for the EC2= to detect reliably. Since both the ignition and fuel delivery are not ope= rating below the minumum RPM necessary, it would seem unlikely that I would= get a lot of fuel in the engine if my engine were not cranking fast enough= . I also put a load on the battery and observed the operation of the system a= s the voltage at the battery dropped. Both the ignition and injectors oper= ated normally until the voltage dropped to about 6.2 volts. At this point = the ignition would drop out above around 3600 RPM. At lower RPM, things op= erated normally until the voltage reached to 4.8 volts when the EC2 stopped= working. There was spark at all plugs and all the injectors were working = up to that point. This was without fuel pressure on the injectors and with= the spark plugs in open air. The spark intensity may have dropped as the = battery voltage dropped, but the sparks were consistent and the sudden tran= sition to strong sparks when RPM exceeded about 1200 was still obvious at a= ll voltages above 4.8. As stated initially, YMMV. Steve Boese =20 ________________________________________ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of = Steve Brooks [cozy4pilot@gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 8:10 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Battery Location[FlyRotary] Re: No start after eng= ine replacement I am running an 89-91 13B engine. Both engines were JDM engines, so I assume that the CAS is the correct one. I had about 60 flight hours on the origianl engine, and the new CAS is identical to the old one, so I think it is correct. I did have the controller upgraded for the EC-3, but I beleive that Tracy tested it also. I don't have anything in between the CAS and EC-2, it is just wired per the EC-2 manual. Steve Bobby J. Hughes wrote: > > > Steve, > > You mention you changed CAS with the new engine and then replaced it > with you old CAS. Three questions. > > Did you have any kind of external circuit between the original CAS and > the EC2? Diode matrix etc. > > Did your EC2 go back to Tracy for upgrades between last time it was > running and the new engine \ CAS. > > Are you sure you have he correct CAS for your engine \ EC2 version. > > > I had a problem with upgrades \ CAS but it was on a renesis. Very > similar to what your describing. > > Before first start I installed the diode matrix what was being tested > and used by some folks. Engine started fine. > I sent my EC2 back to Tracy for upgrades and I believe he put the "fix" > on the EC2 during upgrades. When I reinstalled the EM2 it would not > start. I ended up removing the external diodes and the engine started > right up. Problem solved...sort of. > I then started having the high rpm cutout problem because of high CAS > voltage. But first I let one sparkplug fall off the engine during > testing and it smoked the EC2. So back to Tracy it went. I ended up > installing a different resistor \ zener diode circuit that Dennis H and > Mark S are using to control the voltage at high rpms. Tracy was at a > loss as to why I needed the external circuit with the mod's he has made > to my EC2. > > Bobby Hughes > RV10, Gen 1 (low oil pressure) Super Renesis ...err > 25 hrs in Phase 1, 68 hrs total engine time. > > > > > > I measured the voltage on the engine power buss, and with the master > switch on, it is 12.5 VDC. While cranking the voltage drops to 10.2 > VDC. I'm not sure what is normal, so I'm interested in any thoughts on > that. > > I switched the engine bus over to the front battery, and I was surprised > to see that while cranking the voltage dropped to 9.5 volts. It has a > rather long wire running from the front to the rear of the aircraft, so > perhaps I am dropping some voltage since it is powering the coils, > injectors, fuel pump, etc., though for this test, I did not have the > fuel pump turned on. > > I know that it does maintain the engine already running, which is really > what I intended with the emergency power bypass. > > The cranking RPM appears to be normal, but I have no way to measure the > actual RPM, that I can think of. I did watch the EM-3 during cranking, > but I did not see any RPM indication on the display. It stayed at zero > the whole time, but that may be normal. I don't know. > > Steve > > Ed Anderson wrote: > >> Ok, with a separate battery powering the EC2/3 then you wouldn't think >> > > >> cranking load shouldn't drop that source voltage but if interconnected >> > - it > >> may. However, if the battery cranking the engine is low or dropping >> > too > >> much voltage, your engine may not be making the two revs at the >> required 150 rpm. However, in that case, I wouldn't think you would >> even get the first spark. >> >> Just my 0.02 >> >> Ed Anderson >> >> Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered >> >> Matthews, NC >> >> eanderson@carolina.rr.com >> >> http://www.andersonee.com >> >> http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html >> >> http://www.flyrotary.com/ >> >> http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW >> >> http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] >> On Behalf Of Steve Brooks >> Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 7:35 AM >> To: Rotary motors in aircraft >> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Battery Location[FlyRotary] Re: No start >> after engine replacement >> >> Ed, >> That sounds like a good explanation for what I am seeing. The battery >> > > >> is about two years old. It is an Odyssey PC680. I have two >> batteries, one sits on the rear spar and runs all of the engine stuff, >> > > >> and the other one is in the nose an runs the avionics. I have pretty >> heavy cables running from the battery to the engine, 0 gauge as I >> recall, and they are not very long. Maybe 5 ft for the one hooked to >> the started, and 3 ft for the one ground connected to the engine >> > block. > >> I will check the voltage as you suggested while cranking, I also have >> > > >> an emergency bypass switch where I cant power the engine critical buss >> > > >> from the front battery, so that would also be a quick test, as I could >> > > >> crank from the rear battery and power the EC-2 and coils from the >> > front. > >> I just installed the EC-3, so I'm not too familiar with it yet. I >> will see if it shows the RPM during cranking. I'm not sure if it does >> > or not. > >> Steve >> >> Ed Anderson wrote: >> >> >>> Steve, where is your battery located? Engine compartment or nose?? >>> Long leads can drop a lot of voltage under cranking current. New >>> engine >>> >>> >> may >> >> >>> have higher compression and may take more juice than previous >>> engine to turn it over fast enough. The fact that your old engine >>> was also hard to start makes me wonder. >>> >>> Ed >>> >>> Ed Anderson >>> >>> Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered >>> >>> Matthews, NC >>> >>> eanderson@carolina.rr.com >>> >>> http://www.andersonee.com >>> >>> http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html >>> >>> http://www.flyrotary.com/ >>> >>> http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW >>> >>> http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] >>> On Behalf Of Steve Brooks >>> Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 4:46 PM >>> To: Rotary motors in aircraft >>> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: No start after engine replacement >>> >>> That's interesting. I had not made any changes to mode 8, but it is >>> certainly easy enough to reset it to default. >>> >>> Steve >>> >>> Steven W. Boese wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>> Steve, >>>> >>>> It might be useful to reset the EC2 timing mode 8 setting to the >>>> default >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> setting. My EC2's do not produce consistent or strong sparks at RPM's >>> >>> >> less >> >> >>> than about 1200 if the EC2 timing is advanced using mode 8. The >>> greater >>> >>> >> the >> >> >>> advance, the weaker the spark. Occasionally there will be a strong >>> spark, but the timing on these is very retarded. With my EC2's, the >>> most consistent low RPM sparks are obtained at the most retarded mode >>> > > >>> 8 >>> >>> >> setting, >> >> >>> but the EC2 must be receiving CAS signals (engine running) in order >>> to >>> >>> >> make >> >> >>> this change. >>> >>> >>> >>>> Steve Boese >>>> >>>> ________________________________________ >>>> From: Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On >>>> Behalf >>>> >>>> >> Of >> >> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> Steve Brooks [cozy4pilot@gmail.com] >>> >>> >>> >>>> Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 1:09 PM >>>> To: Rotary motors in aircraft >>>> Subject: [FlyRotary] No start after engine replacement >>>> >>>> I replaced my original engine with another newly rebuilt block, and >>>> also added the EM-3 to the installation. The old engine was hard to >>>> start, and was also making a ticking noise when it did start, which >>>> didn't used to be there. >>>> >>>> After several failed attempts, and double checking the connections, >>>> I had a neighbor help me do some testing. While the ignition test >>>> runs fine, when checking one of the plugs, it sparks when I >>>> initially crank the engine, and then stops. Once in a while there >>>> will be another spark, but not very often. >>>> >>>> I reinstalled the original CAS and have the same issue. I have >>>> double checked the CAS connections and checked them with an ohm >>>> meter to the connector on the EC-2 also. Everything seems to check >>>> out, yet I get only that initial spark. I have replaced the spark >>>> plugs with new ones, and whenever I pull one to check it, is is wet >>>> with fuel, which is no surprise. >>>> >>>> I am wondering if anyone has seen this type of problem, or if you >>>> have any suggestions. >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> Steve Brooks >>>> Cozy MKIV 13B turbo >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >>> >>> >>> >>>> -- >>>> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> -- >>> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >>> Archive and UnSub: >>> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >>> >>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >>> >>> >> signature >> >> >>> database 3267 (20080714) __________ >>> >>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>> >>> http://www.eset.com >>> >>> >>> >>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >>> >>> >> signature >> >> >>> database 3267 (20080714) __________ >>> >>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>> >>> http://www.eset.com >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >>> Archive and UnSub: >>> >>> >> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >> >> >>> >>> >>> >> -- >> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >> Archive and UnSub: >> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >> >> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >> signature database 3267 (20080714) __________ >> >> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >> >> http://www.eset.com >> >> >> >> -- >> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >> Archive and UnSub: >> > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html > >> >> > > > -- > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > Archive and UnSub: > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html > > -- > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/Lis= t.html > > -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.= html