X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from fmailhost04.isp.att.net ([204.127.217.104] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.16) with ESMTP id 3904214 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 29 Oct 2009 10:51:43 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=204.127.217.104; envelope-from=bbradburry@bellsouth.net Received: from desktop (adsl-210-52-137.mco.bellsouth.net[68.210.52.137]) by isp.att.net (frfwmhc04) with SMTP id <20091029145105H0400ifu7ke>; Thu, 29 Oct 2009 14:51:06 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [68.210.52.137] From: "Bill Bradburry" To: "'Rotary motors in aircraft'" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Re: MCT values in the 0-63 area of the EC-2 Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 10:51:09 -0400 Message-ID: <18E91C62EDD34869B82E32B434428DC7@Desktop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0021_01CA5885.B9953AE0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Thread-Index: AcpYmVrLZ09xrRWUTFm7gTvRyLYx/QAC86GA X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.0.6001.18049 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01CA5885.B9953AE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ed, your "long winded discussions" are what makes this forum so great! Thanks for that! Tracy, My guide is dated 7 Nov 07. I think that is the last update you did to my EC-2/EM-2. I think you have answered my question. The second line of the editing area would read an rpm if the engine was running, but reads zero (rpm) if the engine is not running. This is a change from before the 3 table scheme where it would have listed the manifold pressure associated with that bin, and the next line would have read the actual manifold pressure, say 29.0 if the engine was not running. Now the 2nd line is actual as well. So all is well with my EC-2. Caint wait to make noise! Bill B (still rebuilding my cooling system) _____ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Tracy Crook Sent: Thursday, October 29, 2009 9:11 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: MCT values in the 0-63 area of the EC-2 Ah. I think I see the problem. When the EC2/3 went to the 3 table scheme (RPM on the lowest table from 0 - 31) the address no longer always equated to manifold pressure. The EM2/3 spec on line 2 then changed to readout RPM rather than manifold pressure. Line 4 is still the actual MP that the engine is operating at. Line 2 says 0 because I assume the engine is not running when you looked at it so that would be zero RPM not zero manifold pressure. Did you get an updated EM2 guide when you updated your EM2? If not I can email it to you. Tracy On Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 12:36 AM, Bill Bradburry wrote: Data from the editing area of the EM-2 (the top two lines) when on the MAP table screen. Address Mixture correction Manifold Pressure (actually first item on second line on the screen.) 0 -127 0 1 -127 0 shouldn't these be manifold pressure or 2 +0 0 RPMs??? 3 +0 0 4 +0 0 5 +0 0 6 +0 0 Etc.. thru address 63 Outer Space!? 64 +0 10.0 65 +0 10.5 66 +0 11.0 67 +0 11.5 Etc..thru address 127 continues in .5 increments Bill B _____ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Tracy Crook Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 2009 11:57 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: MCT values in the 0-63 area of the EC-2 Zero manifold pressure? You could only have that if you were in outer space. Obviously there is a misunderstanding here but I don't know on which end it is. Let me try this: The two items associated with each address are these - Address is associated with a particular manifold pressure (or rpm if less than 2500 AND less than the threshold pressure which is adjustable, not fixed at 13"). The other item is the DATA in that address which is the correction factor applied at the manifold pressure (or rpm) associated with that address. Neither of these 2 items will look remotely like the numerical value of the actual manifold pressure. For instance, the bottom of the mid-range rpm table (address 32) represents a manifold pressure of about 8" Hg which is about the minimum that any engine will run at under normal conditions. Tracy On Wed, Oct 28, 2009 at 11:39 PM, Bill Bradburry wrote: Tracy, I think I didn't explain what I am seeing properly. The addresses 0-63 should have associated with them two items. (I think) The manifold pressure that is associated with each address and the mixture correction that is associated with that address and manifold pressure. My table for addresses 0-63 ALL have a manifold pressure of ZERO associated with them. The mixture correction for each address varies, mostly zero, but not all. It is the manifold pressures that are all zero! Shouldn't they have either manifold pressures or perhaps RPMs listed?? On the addresses 64-127, the manifold pressures start at 10.0 and increase by .5 with each additional address. Not so with the earlier addresses. I think this is not correct, but I don't think there is any way that I can affect the manifold pressure indications. Since the EC-2 can flip back and forth between the high and low addresses at the same manifold pressures but different rpms, several folks have reported having to ensure that the corrections were similar at the two locations. I intended to verify that they were similar, but since I don't have the manifold pressures in the table at the low addresses, I don't know how I would compare them. But more than that, I don't understand how the EC-2 could know what manifold pressure the lower address corresponds to and therefore which correction it should apply. Perhaps it only looks for +/- 13 inches to go to addresses above or below 31? But then, wouldn't it need an RPM in each address to determine the correction??? Bill B _____ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Tracy Crook Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 2009 11:09 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: MCT values in the 0-63 area of the EC-2 The default values in the table are supposed to be all zeros. There is a conceptual misunderstanding about these values in your question. It is not the Data that corresponds to the manifold pressure, it is the address. The data is a correction value for the corresponding manifold pressure. The values can be from -127 to + 127 with negative values causing the mixture to be adjusted leaner and positive values richer. Does that help? Tracy On Wed, Oct 28, 2009 at 6:35 PM, Bill Bradburry wrote: Tracy is back! What about this question, Tracy? The below from a previous email. Now I have more questions. I went over and copied down the information in my MAP table today. I was surprised to learn that the manifold pressures for all addresses from 0 to 63 were set to Zero. I expected to find actual manifold pressures in there. Starting with addresses 64 through 127 the manifold pressures increase from 10.0 at address 64 in 0.5 inch increments all the way to 41.8 inches at address 127. My engine is naturally aspirated, so the manifold pressures above about 30 or 31 will never be used. I understand that the 0 to 31 addresses are used when the RPM is below 2500 and the manifold pressure is below 13 inches, and that the addresses from 32 to 63 are used when the RPM is between 2500 and 3800 and the manifold pressure is above 13 inches. But I still don't understand how the controller would know which address to use with no manifold pressures entered in the table. Tracy is this is OK? Will these pressures be added when the engine is ran?? Bill B ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01CA5885.B9953AE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Ed, your “long winded discussions” are what = makes this forum so great!  Thanks for that!

 

Tracy,

My guide is dated 7 Nov 07.  I think that is the last = update you did to my EC-2/EM-2.

 

I think you have answered my question.  The second line of = the editing area would read an rpm if the engine was running, but reads zero = (rpm) if the engine is not running.  This is a change from before the 3 = table scheme where it would have listed the manifold pressure associated with = that bin, and the next line would have read the actual manifold pressure, say = 29.0 if the engine was not running.  Now the 2nd line is = actual as well.

 

So all is well with my EC-2.  Caint wait to make = noise!

 

Bill B  (still rebuilding my cooling = system)

 

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Tracy Crook
Sent: Thursday, October = 29, 2009 9:11 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = MCT values in the 0-63 area of the EC-2

Ah.  I = think I see the problem.

  When the EC2/3 went to the 3 table scheme (RPM on the lowest = table from 0 - 31) the address no longer always equated to manifold pressure.  = The EM2/3 spec on line 2 then changed to readout RPM rather than manifold pressure.  Line 4 is still the actual MP that the engine is = operating at.  Line 2 says 0 because I assume the engine is not running when = you looked at it so that would be zero RPM not zero manifold pressure.

Did you get an updated EM2 guide when you updated your EM2?  If not = I can email it to you.

Tracy

On Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 12:36 AM, Bill Bradburry <bbradburry@bellsouth.net>= wrote:

Data = from the editing area of the EM-2 (the top two lines) when on the MAP table = screen.

 

Address    Mixture correction   Manifold Pressure (actually first item on = second line on the screen.)

0       &nb= sp;        -127           &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;  0

1       &nb= sp;        -127           &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;  0            shouldn’t these be manifold pressure = or

2       &nb= sp;         +0                &= nbsp;           0&= nbsp;           RPMs???

3       &nb= sp;         +0            = ;            =     0

4       &nb= sp;         +0            = ;            =     0

5              &= nbsp;  +0         =             &= nbsp;      0

6       &nb= sp;         +0            = ;            =     0

Etc….  thru address 63         = Outer Space!?

 

64       &n= bsp;      +0            = ;            =   10.0

65       &n= bsp;      +0            = ;            =   10.5

66       &n= bsp;      +0            = ;            =   11.0

67       &n= bsp;      +0            = ;            =   11.5

Etc….thru address 127      continues in .5 = increments

 

Bill = B

 

 

 

From: Rotary motors in = aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Tracy = Crook
Sent: Wednesday, October = 28, 2009 11:57 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = MCT values in the 0-63 area of the EC-2

Zero = manifold pressure?  You could only have that if you were in outer = space.  Obviously there is a misunderstanding here but I don't know on which end = it is.

Let me try this:  The two items associated with each address are = these - Address is associated with a particular manifold pressure (or rpm if = less than 2500 AND less than the threshold pressure which is adjustable, not fixed = at 13").  The other item is the DATA in that address which is the correction factor applied at the manifold pressure (or rpm) associated = with that address.  Neither of these 2 items will look remotely like the numerical value of the actual manifold pressure.  For = instance,  the bottom of the mid-range rpm table (address 32) represents a manifold = pressure of about 8" Hg which is about the minimum that any engine will run = at under normal conditions.

Tracy

On = Wed, Oct 28, 2009 at 11:39 PM, Bill Bradburry <bbradburry@bellsouth.net> = wrote:

Tracy,

I = think I didn’t explain what I am seeing = properly.

The = addresses 0-63 should have associated with them two items. (I think) =

 The manifold pressure that is associated with each address and the mixture correction = that is associated with that address and manifold = pressure. 

My = table for addresses 0-63 ALL have a manifold pressure of ZERO associated with = them.  The mixture correction for each address varies, mostly zero, but not = all.

It is = the manifold pressures that are all zero!  Shouldn’t they have either = manifold pressures or perhaps RPMs listed??

On = the addresses 64-127, the manifold pressures start at 10.0 and increase by .5 with = each additional address.  Not so with the earlier addresses.  I = think this is not correct, but I don’t think there is any way that I can = affect the manifold pressure indications.

 

Since = the EC-2 can flip back and forth between the high and low addresses at the same = manifold pressures but different rpms, several folks have reported having to = ensure that the corrections were similar at the two locations.  I intended to = verify that they were similar, but since I don’t have the manifold = pressures in the table at the low addresses, I don’t know how I would compare them.  But more than that, I don’t understand how the EC-2 = could know what manifold pressure the lower address corresponds to and = therefore which correction it should apply.

Perhaps it only looks for +/- 13 inches to go to addresses above or below 31?  But = then, wouldn’t it need an RPM in each address to determine the = correction???

 

Bill = B

 

From: Rotary motors in = aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Tracy = Crook
Sent: Wednesday, October = 28, 2009 11:09 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = MCT values in the 0-63 area of the EC-2

The = default values in the table are supposed to be all zeros.  There is a conceptual misunderstanding about these values in your question.  It is not = the Data that corresponds to the manifold pressure, it is the address.  The = data is a correction value for the corresponding manifold pressure.  The = values can be from -127 to + 127  with negative values causing the mixture = to be adjusted leaner and positive values richer.

Does that help?

Tracy

On = Wed, Oct 28, 2009 at 6:35 PM, Bill Bradburry <bbradburry@bellsouth.net> = wrote:

 Tracy is = back!  What about this question, Tracy?

 

The = below from a previous email…

 

Now I = have more questions.  I went over and copied down the information in my MAP = table today.  I was surprised to learn that the manifold pressures for = all addresses from 0 to 63 were set to Zero.  I expected to find actual manifold pressures in there.  Starting with addresses 64 through = 127 the manifold pressures increase from 10.0 at address 64 in 0.5 inch = increments all the way to 41.8 inches at address 127.  My engine is naturally = aspirated, so the manifold pressures above about 30 or 31 will never be used.  = I understand that the 0 to 31 addresses are used when the RPM is below = 2500 and the manifold pressure is below 13 inches, and that the addresses from 32 = to 63 are used when the RPM is between 2500 and 3800 and the manifold pressure = is above 13 inches.  But I still don’t understand how the = controller would know which address to use with no manifold pressures entered in = the table.  Tracy is this is OK?  Will these pressures be added when the engine is = ran??

 

Bill = B

 

 

 

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