X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from fed1rmmtao104.cox.net ([68.230.241.42] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.16) with ESMTP id 3859554 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 19 Sep 2009 11:24:26 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=68.230.241.42; envelope-from=rv-4mike@cox.net Received: from fed1rmimpo01.cox.net ([70.169.32.71]) by fed1rmmtao104.cox.net (InterMail vM.8.00.01.00 201-2244-105-20090324) with ESMTP id <20090919152350.BXMS14181.fed1rmmtao104.cox.net@fed1rmimpo01.cox.net> for ; Sat, 19 Sep 2009 11:23:50 -0400 Received: from wills ([68.105.90.215]) by fed1rmimpo01.cox.net with bizsmtp id ifPn1c0074emyWU03fPpPL; Sat, 19 Sep 2009 11:23:49 -0400 X-VR-Score: 0.00 X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.0 c=1 a=lSGGQt5gAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=pcLIrrrKAAAA:8 a=-kdx-pnjXCiuCgcVLGAA:9 a=e_1aX-vpDhfKwMySZXwA:7 a=0-p0bsGD-RU1L0tUbBjFc3rZG9UA:4 a=mgB4Len9mMkA:10 a=EzXvWhQp4_cA:10 a=ftFGBYpk1mUA:10 a=Rg04LspRF9E6DCJ7:21 a=S_IypDDD1CW0wlsi:21 a=SSmOFEACAAAA:8 a=pedpZTtsAAAA:8 a=UretUmmEAAAA:8 a=WT0KT6eO-rdFIvDJMlQA:9 a=XgmWwF23HImbJXnxvaUA:7 a=zP4pr4LF3A6JqVnXGptggHxqXwIA:4 a=eJojReuL3h0A:10 a=iVkDmfvjeKcA:10 X-CM-Score: 0.00 Message-ID: From: "Mike Wills" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Mixture Condition Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2009 08:23:47 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_003E_01CA3902.82A268C0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5843 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003E_01CA3902.82A268C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The following is just my opinion. It appears to me that this is an = example of redundancy that creates more problems than it addresses. An = auto engine conversion by itself adds enough complication and unknowns = without setting yourself up for all sorts of unanticipated failure modes = by adding redundant systems of questionable value. KISS engineering = should be applied wherever possible. If this were me I'd choose to run either the carb or the EFI and delete = the other system. If it can fail now in an unanticipated way, what = prevents it from doing the same 20 hours into your flight test program? Mike Wills RV-4 N144MW ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Bill Bradburry=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Friday, September 18, 2009 8:09 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Mixture Condition John, You can send your injectors to have them flow tested and cleaned for = about $17 each plus about $5 each way for shipping the entire batch. = That will be about $80. http://www.cruzinperformance.com/fuelinj.html Rich at cruzin performance did mine. You can check to see if they are leaking by pulling them out of the = engine with them still attached to the rail. (use a wire to firmly = attach them to the rail so they will not blow out) turn on the fuel = pump. If there is a leak they will drip. I doubt the problem is with the injectors leaking because the engine = runs poorly when on the injectors, but not on the carb. When air flows = thru the carb, fuel in the carb will be sucked into the intake. That = could cause the engine to run rough on the injectors and if the supply = continues, the engine would keep running when the injectors are shut = off. But the first thing you are going to have to do is isolate the problem = to either of the two systems and then fix the bad one. As long as you = keep running both systems, you are going to have difficulty determining = what the problem is. Disable one or the other so there is no way it can = get fuel or introduce air and check for how it runs, then do the other = one the same way. At least you will know which system is screwed. Bill B =20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf Of John Sent: Friday, September 18, 2009 9:38 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Mixture Condition Gentlemen, thankyou for your input. I talked with Bob White tonight = and he thought that the #1 primary injector may be sticking open and = letting the fuel run and keeping the engine running. Try doing that on = a recip engine and see how long the muffler lasts. Not sure how to = check for this condition, as when it finally stops, I turn on the LP = pumps and start the engine so the pressure on fuel injection doesn't = bled to zero, putting the fuel into the standing engine, then I let the = fuel burn out of the carb until it quits. In a few minutes it will = start and run normal again and will stop when you turn off the injectors = and as it gets hot again it repeats the cycle. =20 Does anyone know of a reasonable substitute for Mazda injectors, their = price is quit steep.=20 I can plug the fuel line to carb, but I don't believe that after 7 = hours of running that gas would start siphoning up to the carb and with = the fuel pump and injectors off it keeps running until the fuel pressure = gets down to 17#'s before it quits. The fuel pressure is holding a = steady 41 pounds when the engine is running normally. JohnD =20 From: Tracy Crook=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Friday, September 18, 2009 4:57 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Mixture Condition =20 With such an odd assortment of symptoms I suspect that you may have = more than one problem. This is the hardest situation to diagnose = because fixing any one thing will not make it right, only change the = symptoms. If there IS a single problem, it is to be found by finding what = makes the engine run with all injectors disabled. This can't happen = unless there is a major problem somewhere. I would suggest fixing this = first. =20 Tracy Crook On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 1:08 PM, John = wrote: I have narrowed the mixture condition down to the fact that when it = starts to miss up I can keep it running poorly by turning the mixture = control down to minimum, but if I turn off the primary injectors switch = the engine appears to run okay, the secondary injector switch doesn't = seem to make any difference in the way it runs at 4000 rpm or idle. The = injector switches as well as the wiring harness I purchased from Bob and = all wires are soldered and covered with heat shrink. I checked the best = I can with a light and mirror and everything looks okey under the panel. = It runs the same, rather in mode A or B. On rereading the instructions = I see that the coil disable can only be checked in mode B, so I haven't = done that yet. =20 I turned of the fuel pump and with the injector switch's off the = engine continued to run until the fuel press was down to 17 pds. and = quit. I turned on the fuel pump (LP) to the Weber and it started = immediatly. This condition started at 7.2 on the hour meter. I really = now don't have any idea where to start looking for the problem. JohnD =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_003E_01CA3902.82A268C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The following is just my opinion. It = appears to me=20 that this is an example of redundancy that creates more problems than it = addresses. An auto engine conversion by itself adds enough complication = and=20 unknowns without setting yourself up for all sorts of unanticipated = failure=20 modes by adding redundant systems of questionable value. KISS = engineering=20 should be applied wherever possible.
 
 If this were me I'd choose to run = either the=20 carb or the EFI and delete the other system. If it can fail now in an=20 unanticipated way, what prevents it from doing the same 20 hours into = your=20 flight test program?
 
Mike Wills
RV-4 N144MW
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Bill=20 Bradburry
Sent: Friday, September 18, = 2009 8:09=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Mixture=20 Condition

John,

You can send your injectors to have them = flow tested=20 and cleaned for about $17 each plus about $5 each way for shipping the = entire=20 batch.  That will be about $80.

 http://www.cruzinp= erformance.com/fuelinj.html

Rich at cruzin performance did=20 mine.

You can check to see if they are leaking by = pulling=20 them out of the engine with them still attached to the rail. (use a = wire to=20 firmly attach them to the rail so  they will not blow out) turn = on the=20 fuel pump.  If there is a leak they will=20 drip.

I doubt the problem is with the injectors = leaking=20 because the engine runs poorly when on the injectors, but not on the=20 carb.  When air flows thru the carb, fuel in the carb will be = sucked into=20 the intake.  That could cause the engine to run rough on the = injectors=20 and if the supply continues, the engine would keep running when the = injectors=20 are shut off.

But the first thing you are going to have to = do is=20 isolate the problem to either of the two systems and then fix the bad=20 one.  As long as you keep running both systems, you are going to = have=20 difficulty determining what the problem is. Disable one or the other = so there=20 is no way it can get fuel or introduce air and check for how it runs, = then do=20 the other one the same way.  At least you will know which system = is=20 screwed.

Bill B

 

From:=20 Rotary motors in aircraft = [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On=20 Behalf Of John
Sent: Friday, September 18, = 2009 9:38=20 PM
To: = Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Mixture=20 Condition

Gentlemen, thankyou for = your=20 input.  I talked with Bob White tonight and he thought that the = #1=20 primary injector may be sticking open and letting the fuel run and = keeping the=20 engine running.  Try doing that on a recip engine and see how = long the=20 muffler lasts.  Not sure how to check for this condition, as when = it=20 finally stops,  I turn on the LP pumps and start the engine so = the=20 pressure on fuel injection doesn't bled to zero, putting the fuel into = the=20 standing engine, then I let the fuel burn out of the carb until it=20 quits.  In a few minutes it will start and run normal again and = will stop=20 when you turn off the injectors and as it gets hot again it repeats = the=20 cycle.         =20

Does anyone know of a = reasonable=20 substitute for Mazda injectors, their price is quit=20 steep. 

 I can plug the = fuel line to=20 carb, but I don't believe that after 7 hours of running that gas would = start=20 siphoning up to the carb and with the fuel pump and injectors off it = keeps=20 running until the fuel pressure gets down to 17#'s before it = quits.  The=20 fuel pressure is holding a steady 41 pounds when the engine is running = normally.  JohnD 

From: Tracy=20 Crook

To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20

Sent: Friday,=20 September 18, 2009 4:57 PM

Subject:=20 [FlyRotary] Re: Mixture Condition

 

With such an odd assortment = of symptoms=20 I suspect that you may have more than one problem.  This is the = hardest=20 situation to diagnose because fixing any one thing will not make it = right,=20 only change the symptoms.

If there IS a single problem, it is = to be=20 found by finding what makes the engine run with all injectors=20 disabled.  This can't happen unless there is a major = problem=20 somewhere.  I would suggest fixing this first.  =

Tracy=20 Crook

On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 1:08 PM, John = <downing.j@sbcglobal.net>=20 wrote:

I have narrowed the = mixture=20 condition down to the fact that when it starts to miss up I can keep = it=20 running poorly by turning the mixture control down to minimum, but = if I turn=20 off the primary injectors switch the engine appears to run = okay,=20 the secondary injector switch doesn't seem to make any difference in = the way=20 it runs at 4000 rpm or idle.  The injector switches as well as = the=20 wiring harness I purchased from Bob and all wires are soldered and = covered=20 with heat shrink.  I checked the best I can with a light and = mirror and=20 everything looks okey under the panel.  It runs the same, = rather in=20 mode A or B.  On rereading the instructions I see that the coil = disable=20 can only be checked in mode B, so I haven't done that yet. =20

I turned of the fuel = pump and=20 with the injector switch's off the engine continued to run until the = fuel=20 press was down to 17 pds. and quit.  I turned on the fuel pump = (LP) to=20 the Weber and it started immediatly.  This condition started at = 7.2 on=20 the hour meter.  I really now don't have any idea where to = start=20 looking for the problem.  JohnD =20

 

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