X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail-px0-f194.google.com ([209.85.216.194] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.16) with ESMTP id 3840798 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 08 Sep 2009 03:42:25 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.216.194; envelope-from=wdleonard@gmail.com Received: by pxi32 with SMTP id 32so3020904pxi.25 for ; Tue, 08 Sep 2009 00:41:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=KT3d+Zf/4gUoGQkyi8Z7QOhDyFUGdexJZ4EfuLgr/ew=; b=S4Bpl8UUP5SMegCMqKY6mDTYS8tn9dbw988vKeRzPiAcE74aKGZbIC+1CcUYOof08N Sak1q4RBak/xwB2lAToXrwPoEoBaBlbmo79q4u9+nPjzWvnqmGuLNuX7SbbkjfuoAmcm Ux4X/wnSDMJtYp2eL41HOw0hdXsSCgszBcUZ4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=wGxdcAG9ATJyvP3SHGIYR7zEPiMjCM4v3la1gejUEdUEyEmaCRRx01axReUb2+0XkA frY+lL9vp/ocE+i1LvV5HOwZJ+p6ic4LOGoNax3n36d+dr36cgr3yQ5WX39OFjwzQ2Bh yVdTZlOh3Ju//D8/Z6iqsGkRwBaBKuQVqDMFc= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.140.141.2 with SMTP id o2mr3356892rvd.204.1252395708729; Tue, 08 Sep 2009 00:41:48 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2009 00:41:48 -0700 Message-ID: <1c23473f0909080041m1500835au90f737782e2b395f@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] FishTail Vs FishMouth: [FlyRotary] Re: FishMouth [FlyRotary] Re: Muffling/ Morroso update From: David Leonard To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary=000e0cd170f056493204730c19b2 --000e0cd170f056493204730c19b2 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000e0cd170f056492f04730c19b1 --000e0cd170f056492f04730c19b1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Eh, the fishmouth is a lot like the fishtail... but there is room to inser= t foot. Dave Leonard On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 4:42 AM, Ed Anderson wrot= e: > Sorry, Jeff, I was thinking =93FishTail=94 when David mentioned =93Fish= mouth=94 > =96 here is an example of a =93FishTail=94 an end piece for exhaust pipe.= David > will have to explain =93FishMouth=94 > > > > > > Ed Anderson > > Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered > > Matthews, NC > > eanderson@carolina.rr.com > > http://www.andersonee.com > > http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html > > http://www.flyrotary.com/ > > http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW > > http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm > ------------------------------ > > *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] *O= n > Behalf Of *Jeff Luckey > *Sent:* Monday, September 07, 2009 12:58 AM > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: FishMouth [FlyRotary] Re: Muffling/ Morroso > update > > > > What=92s a =93fish mouth=94? > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] *O= n > Behalf Of *Ed Anderson > *Sent:* Sunday, September 06, 2009 13:45 > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] FishMouth [FlyRotary] Re: Muffling/ Morroso update > > > > > > Hi Dave, > > > > Unless you get a really sturdy (heavy) fishmouth, you will likely find th= at > the exhaust pulses will fatique the mouth in relative short time. I trie= d > it by squishing down some 2 =BD=94 0.06 tubing =96 even drilled some hole= s to > promote flow. After a few hours chunks of the metal was missing and the > mouth was fractured in many places =96 not due to the heat but due to the > shock wave. > > > > YMMV > > Ed Anderson > > Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered > > Matthews, NC > > eanderson@carolina.rr.com > > http://www.andersonee.com > > http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html > > http://www.flyrotary.com/ > > http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW > > http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm > ------------------------------ > > *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] *O= n > Behalf Of *David Leonard > *Sent:* Sunday, September 06, 2009 2:47 PM > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Muffling/ Morroso update > > > > I have been running the Morroso for the last 20 hours or so. Not sure it > is the muffler, but I have noticed a definate decrease in power. Too bad > because it did a nice job on the sound and only weighed 3 lbs. > > > > I think next I will empty out the flowmaster shell and reinstall it - the= n > live with the noise. Maybe put in some lava rocks if I get tired of the > noise again. Maybe try a fishmouth. > > > > -- > David Leonard > > Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY > http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net > http://RotaryRoster.net > > On Sun, Sep 6, 2009 at 10:19 AM, Lynn Hanover wrote= : > > Mark/Ed/Bill, > > > > I was thinking along the same lines as Bill - that the DNA is more > restrictive resulting in richer mixtures at equivalent MAP. My home made > muffler was a copy of the Moroso spiral flow mufflers, but with a larger > center tube. With my home made muffler I can look all the way through it = so > the DNA is clearly more restrictive. Which is why I'm surprised it didnt > work better. > > > > The DNA sure looks better than my home made muffler. Weld quality is grea= t. > Time will tell how it holds up. The home made muffler was Inconel so I > expect it would be more durable in the long run. > > > > The point of something else in the airflow path limiting HP is a good > point. One of things I've noticed is that I reach max power long before I > reach max throttle. Since I'm making enough power for good performance I > wasnt too worried about this, but I am curious. Once I reach about 3/4 > throttle I'm maxed out - the last 1/4 doesnt do anything. > > > > Mike Wills > > RV-4 N144MW > > > > The first problem to overcome when muffling a rotary, is the supersonic > shock wave leaving the engine. If you can see through the muffler from en= d > to end, it is probable that some part of that shock wave will exit the > muffler. In order to slow the shock wave to subsonic it is required that = the > muffler provide some pressure in front of, Or, to impinge on the moving w= ave > to slow it down. > > > > The Mazda racing muffler has an empty room at the front that allows the > shock wave to expand and drop to subsonic before muffling begins. You can > see through the Mazda muffler, but they address the supersonic problem ea= rly > in the process. They used to use lava rocks for the media, This stuff wou= ld > be turned to dust and expelled during the year, and need to be replaced. > > > > The center tube was perfed as was the front bulkhead. So pressure from th= e > front chamber could see the center tube cross section > > and the perfed bulkhead area. So in that regard the muffler was ineffecti= ve > if the front chaomber failed to drop the shock wave to subsonic. However = it > did, and could hold the strongest Rotary to 105 dB at 50 feet. (Full > throttle at best power RPM) Probably well above 9,000 RPM. > > > > So to muffle you drop the velocity, using volume changes. By cooling the > flow, by impinging on the flow with gasses collected in the front of the > muffler and reintroduced near the end of the muffler, by using the flow t= o > impinge on itself with splitters or divided flow tricks and reflectors. B= y > absorbing the highest pressure peaks in some form of replaceable media. B= y > absorbing the most offensive frequencies in tuned cavities. > > > > Once the supersonic problem is delt with, conventional car mufflers are > effective. > > > > My first muffler attempt started with the center tube being from a house > jack strut. About 1/8 wall probably 1010 steel. Large diameter holes in t= he > first 5 inches to help replicate the Mazda cavity muffler. Then a bulkhea= d > with 1/4" holes. Then a space of about 4" with no holes. Then thousands (= it > seemed like) of 1/8" holes in the rest of the tube length. I worked prett= y > well and then melted the center tube near the front. There was no media > involved. About 30" overall. > > > > The rotary is slightly more tolorant of back pressure than is suspected, > and this may be used to impinge > > on fuffling flow. At the exhause flange, there is a negative pressure wel= l > below ambient. A leak here draws cold air into the system and unburned fu= el > ignites with a popping sound, like a 2 cycle scooter off the power. > > > > Perf tube mufflers take off the peaks and then impinge on the flow. So th= ey > may affect tuning every where, and then change as the media melts into > little balls or is hammered to dust and leaves the muffler. > > > > It seemed to me that the Spintech was close to the best for this > application, and would like to have seen that run to destruction. > > > > Just my opinion, I could be completly wrong. > > > > Lynn E. Hanover > > > > > > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus > signature database 3267 (20080714) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus > signature database 3267 (20080714) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > --=20 David Leonard Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net http://RotaryRoster.net --000e0cd170f056492f04730c19b1 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Eh,=A0 the fishmouth is a lot like the fishtail... but there is room t= o insert foot.
=A0
Dave Leonard

On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 4:42 AM, Ed Anderson <eanderson@ca= rolina.rr.com> wrote:

Sorry, Jeff, =A0I was thinking =93F= ishTail=94 when David mentioned =93Fishmouth=94 =96 here is an example of a= =93FishTail=94 an end piece for exhaust pipe.=A0 David will have to explai= n =93FishMouth=94

=A0

=A0

From: Rota= ry motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Jeff Luckey
Sent: Monday, September 07,= 2009 12:58 AM
To: Rotar= y motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: FishMouth [FlyRotary] Re: Muffling/ Morroso update

What=92s a =93fish mouth=94?=

=A0

From: Rota= ry motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Ed Anderson
Sent: Sunday, September 06,= 2009 13:45
To: Rotary m= otors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] FishMouth [FlyRotary] Re: Muffling/ Morroso update

=A0

Hi Dave,

=A0

Unless you get a really sturdy (hea= vy) fishmouth, you will likely find that the exhaust pulses will fatique th= e mouth in relative short time.=A0 I tried it by squishing down some 2 =BD= =94 0.06 tubing =96 even drilled some holes to promote flow.=A0 After a few= hours chunks of the metal was missing and the mouth was fractured in many = places =96 not due to the heat but due to the shock wave.

=A0

YMMV

From: Rota= ry motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of David Leonard
Sent: Sunday, September 06,= 2009 2:47 PM
To: Rotary= motors in aircraft
Subject:= [FlyRotary] Re: Muffling/ Morroso update

= --
David Leonard

Turbo Rotary RV= -6 N4VY
http= ://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net
http://RotaryRoster.= net

lehanover@gmail.com> wrote:=

Mark/Ed/Bill,

I was thinking along the same lines as Bill - that the DNA is m= ore restrictive resulting in richer mixtures at equivalent MAP. My home mad= e muffler was a copy of the Moroso spiral flow mufflers, but with a larger = center tube. With my home made muffler I can look all the way through it so= the DNA is clearly more restrictive. Which is why I'm surprised it did= nt work better.

The DNA sure looks better than my home made muffler. Weld quali= ty is great. Time will tell how it holds up. The home made muffler was Inco= nel so I expect it would be more durable in the long run.

The point of something else in the airflow path limiting HP is = a good point. One of things I've noticed is that I reach max power long= before I reach max throttle. Since I'm making enough power for good pe= rformance I wasnt too worried about this, but I am curious. Once I reach ab= out 3/4 throttle I'm maxed out - the last 1/4 doesnt do anything.

Mike Wills

RV-4 N144MW

http://www.eset.com<= /a>



__________ Information from ESET NOD32 A= ntivirus, version of virus signature database 3267 (20080714) __________
The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com



--
David Leonard

Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net
http://RotaryRoster.net
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