X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com ([75.180.132.120] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.16) with ESMTP id 3839868 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 07 Sep 2009 07:42:47 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=75.180.132.120; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Received: from computername ([75.191.186.236]) by cdptpa-omta04.mail.rr.com with ESMTP id <20090907114211264.PGGH8566@cdptpa-omta04.mail.rr.com> for ; Mon, 7 Sep 2009 11:42:11 +0000 From: "Ed Anderson" To: "'Rotary motors in aircraft'" Subject: FishTail Vs FishMouth: [FlyRotary] Re: FishMouth [FlyRotary] Re: Muffling/ Morroso update Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2009 07:42:11 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_004E_01CA2F8E.B60E4350" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 In-Reply-To: Thread-index: Acovd9qvhMUxAAfWQkCE1fQ7wuHaKAAOCIag X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Message-Id: <20090907114211264.PGGH8566@cdptpa-omta04.mail.rr.com> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_004E_01CA2F8E.B60E4350 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_004F_01CA2F8E.B612FE40" ------=_NextPart_001_004F_01CA2F8E.B612FE40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sorry, Jeff, I was thinking =93FishTail=94 when David mentioned = =93Fishmouth=94 =96 here is an example of a =93FishTail=94 an end piece for exhaust pipe. = David will have to explain =93FishMouth=94 =20 =20 =20 Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com http://www.andersonee.com http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html http://www.flyrotary.com/ http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm =20 _____ =20 From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Jeff Luckey Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 12:58 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: FishMouth [FlyRotary] Re: Muffling/ Morroso = update =20 What=92s a =93fish mouth=94? =20 _____ =20 From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Ed Anderson Sent: Sunday, September 06, 2009 13:45 To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] FishMouth [FlyRotary] Re: Muffling/ Morroso update =20 =20 Hi Dave, =20 Unless you get a really sturdy (heavy) fishmouth, you will likely find = that the exhaust pulses will fatique the mouth in relative short time. I = tried it by squishing down some 2 =BD=94 0.06 tubing =96 even drilled some = holes to promote flow. After a few hours chunks of the metal was missing and the mouth was fractured in many places =96 not due to the heat but due to = the shock wave. =20 YMMV Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com http://www.andersonee.com http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html http://www.flyrotary.com/ http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm =20 _____ =20 From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of David Leonard Sent: Sunday, September 06, 2009 2:47 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Muffling/ Morroso update =20 I have been running the Morroso for the last 20 hours or so. Not sure = it is the muffler, but I have noticed a definate decrease in power. Too bad because it did a nice job on the sound and only weighed 3 lbs. =20 =20 I think next I will empty out the flowmaster shell and reinstall it - = then live with the noise. Maybe put in some lava rocks if I get tired of the noise again. Maybe try a fishmouth. =20 --=20 David Leonard Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net http://RotaryRoster.net On Sun, Sep 6, 2009 at 10:19 AM, Lynn Hanover = wrote: Mark/Ed/Bill, =20 I was thinking along the same lines as Bill - that the DNA is more restrictive resulting in richer mixtures at equivalent MAP. My home made muffler was a copy of the Moroso spiral flow mufflers, but with a larger center tube. With my home made muffler I can look all the way through it = so the DNA is clearly more restrictive. Which is why I'm surprised it didnt work better. =20 The DNA sure looks better than my home made muffler. Weld quality is = great. Time will tell how it holds up. The home made muffler was Inconel so I expect it would be more durable in the long run. =20 The point of something else in the airflow path limiting HP is a good = point. One of things I've noticed is that I reach max power long before I reach = max throttle. Since I'm making enough power for good performance I wasnt too worried about this, but I am curious. Once I reach about 3/4 throttle = I'm maxed out - the last 1/4 doesnt do anything. =20 Mike Wills RV-4 N144MW =20 The first problem to overcome when muffling a rotary, is the supersonic shock wave leaving the engine. If you can see through the muffler from = end to end, it is probable that some part of that shock wave will exit the muffler. In order to slow the shock wave to subsonic it is required that = the muffler provide some pressure in front of, Or, to impinge on the moving = wave to slow it down. =20 The Mazda racing muffler has an empty room at the front that allows the shock wave to expand and drop to subsonic before muffling begins. You = can see through the Mazda muffler, but they address the supersonic problem = early in the process. They used to use lava rocks for the media, This stuff = would be turned to dust and expelled during the year, and need to be replaced. = =20 The center tube was perfed as was the front bulkhead. So pressure from = the front chamber could see the center tube cross section and the perfed bulkhead area. So in that regard the muffler was = ineffective if the front chaomber failed to drop the shock wave to subsonic. However = it did, and could hold the strongest Rotary to 105 dB at 50 feet. (Full throttle at best power RPM) Probably well above 9,000 RPM.=20 =20 So to muffle you drop the velocity, using volume changes. By cooling the flow, by impinging on the flow with gasses collected in the front of the muffler and reintroduced near the end of the muffler, by using the flow = to impinge on itself with splitters or divided flow tricks and reflectors. = By absorbing the highest pressure peaks in some form of replaceable media. = By absorbing the most offensive frequencies in tuned cavities.=20 =20 Once the supersonic problem is delt with, conventional car mufflers are effective.=20 =20 My first muffler attempt started with the center tube being from a house jack strut. About 1/8 wall probably 1010 steel. Large diameter holes in = the first 5 inches to help replicate the Mazda cavity muffler. Then a = bulkhead with 1/4" holes. Then a space of about 4" with no holes. Then thousands = (it seemed like) of 1/8" holes in the rest of the tube length. I worked = pretty well and then melted the center tube near the front. There was no media involved. About 30" overall. =20 The rotary is slightly more tolorant of back pressure than is suspected, = and this may be used to impinge on fuffling flow. At the exhause flange, there is a negative pressure = well below ambient. A leak here draws cold air into the system and unburned = fuel ignites with a popping sound, like a 2 cycle scooter off the power. =20 Perf tube mufflers take off the peaks and then impinge on the flow. So = they may affect tuning every where, and then change as the media melts into little balls or is hammered to dust and leaves the muffler. =20 It seemed to me that the Spintech was close to the best for this application, and would like to have seen that run to destruction.=20 =20 Just my opinion, I could be completly wrong. =20 Lynn E. Hanover =20 __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus = signature database 3267 (20080714) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com ------=_NextPart_001_004F_01CA2F8E.B612FE40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Sorry, Jeff, =A0I was thinking = “FishTail” when David mentioned “Fishmouth” – here is an example = of a “FishTail” an end piece for exhaust pipe.=A0 David will have to explain = “FishMouth”

 

<= /span>

 

From: = Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Jeff Luckey
Sent: Monday, September = 07, 2009 12:58 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = FishMouth [FlyRotary] Re: Muffling/ Morroso update

 

What’s a “fish = mouth”?

 

From: = Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Ed Anderson
Sent: Sunday, September = 06, 2009 13:45
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] = FishMouth [FlyRotary] Re: Muffling/ Morroso update

 

 

Hi = Dave,

 

Unless you get a really sturdy = (heavy) fishmouth, you will likely find that the exhaust pulses will fatique the mouth in = relative short time.  I tried it by squishing down some 2 =BD” 0.06 = tubing – even drilled some holes to promote flow.  After a few hours = chunks of the metal was missing and the mouth was fractured in many places = – not due to the heat but due to the shock wave.

 

YMMV

From: = Rotary motors in aircraft = [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of = David Leonard
Sent: Sunday, September = 06, 2009 2:47 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Muffling/ Morroso update

 

I have been running the Morroso for the last 20 hours or = so.  Not sure it is the muffler, but I have noticed a definate decrease in = power.  Too bad because it did a nice job on the sound and only weighed 3 lbs.  =

 

I think next I will empty out the flowmaster shell and reinstall = it - then live with the noise.  Maybe put in some lava rocks if I get = tired of the noise again.  Maybe try a = fishmouth.

 

--
David Leonard

Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net http://RotaryRoster.net

On Sun, Sep 6, 2009 at 10:19 AM, Lynn Hanover <lehanover@gmail.com> = wrote:

Mark/Ed/Bill,

 

I was thinking along the same lines as Bill - that = the DNA is more restrictive resulting in richer mixtures at equivalent MAP. My = home made muffler was a copy of the Moroso spiral flow mufflers, but with a = larger center tube. With my home made muffler I can look all the way through it = so the DNA is clearly more restrictive. Which is why I'm surprised it didnt = work better.

 

The DNA sure looks better than my home made muffler. = Weld quality is great. Time will tell how it holds up. The home made muffler = was Inconel so I expect it would be more durable in the long = run.

 

The point of something else in the airflow path = limiting HP is a good point. One of things I've noticed is that I reach max power = long before I reach max throttle. Since I'm making enough power for good = performance I wasnt too worried about this, but I am curious. Once I reach about 3/4 throttle I'm maxed out - the last 1/4 doesnt do = anything.

 

Mike Wills

RV-4 N144MW

 

The first problem to overcome when muffling a rotary, is the = supersonic shock wave leaving the engine. If you can see through the muffler from = end to end, it is probable that some part of that shock wave will exit the muffler. = In order to slow the shock wave to subsonic it is required that the muffler provide some pressure in front of, Or, to impinge on the moving wave to = slow it down.

 

The Mazda racing muffler has an empty room at the front that = allows the shock wave to expand and drop to subsonic before muffling begins. You = can see through the Mazda muffler, but they address the supersonic problem early = in the process. They used to use lava rocks for the media, This stuff would be = turned to dust and expelled during the year, and need to be replaced. =

 

The center tube was perfed as was the front bulkhead. So = pressure from the front chamber could see the center tube cross = section

and the perfed bulkhead area. So in that regard the muffler was ineffective if the front chaomber failed to drop the shock wave to = subsonic. However it did, and could hold the strongest Rotary to 105 dB at 50 = feet. (Full throttle at best power RPM) Probably well above 9,000 RPM. =

 

So to muffle you drop the velocity, using volume changes. By = cooling the flow, by impinging on the flow with gasses collected in the front of = the muffler and reintroduced near the end of the muffler, by using the flow = to impinge on itself with splitters or divided flow tricks and reflectors. = By absorbing the highest pressure peaks in some form of replaceable media. = By absorbing the most offensive frequencies in tuned cavities. =

 

Once the supersonic problem is delt with, conventional car = mufflers are effective.

 

My first muffler attempt started with the center tube being from = a house jack strut. About 1/8 wall probably 1010 steel. Large diameter = holes in the first 5 inches to help replicate the Mazda cavity muffler. Then a = bulkhead with 1/4" holes. Then a space of about 4" with no holes. Then thousands (it seemed like) of 1/8" holes in the rest of the tube = length. I worked pretty well and then melted the center tube near the front. There = was no media involved.  About 30" = overall.

 

The rotary is slightly more tolorant of back pressure than is suspected, and this may be used to impinge

on fuffling flow. At the exhause flange, there is a negative = pressure well below ambient. A leak here draws cold air into the system and = unburned fuel ignites with a popping sound, like a 2 cycle scooter off the = power.

 

Perf tube mufflers take off the peaks and then impinge on the = flow. So they may affect tuning every where, and then change as the media melts = into little balls or is hammered to dust and leaves the = muffler.

 

It seemed to me that the Spintech was close to the best for this application, and would like to have seen that run to destruction. =

 

Just my opinion, I could be completly = wrong.

 

Lynn E. Hanover



 



__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus = signature database 3267 (20080714) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com



__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of = virus signature database 3267 (20080714) __________

The message = was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com
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