X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail-qy0-f177.google.com ([209.85.221.177] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.16) with ESMTP id 3836675 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 04 Sep 2009 13:44:46 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.221.177; envelope-from=rwstracy@gmail.com Received: by qyk7 with SMTP id 7so640285qyk.8 for ; Fri, 04 Sep 2009 10:44:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=aPOtLjpGUDdEWyONBLBL9jGzAbeIhfIfHwRhitiixYE=; b=LzM221xC00elkA8NbhMEvAcEyLikO3/nguEsnjK20ZcLO9jwmGN6wXf4Nf7Ibi548+ CRBYXaGCOXbmo0uy1uKTKqQrg9j0CQ5ZJC6x2nhbUbgsWoZPq6XypjvuSN3W8hscZ+Un 2A+60opXAQvlovaGS4PH6HFu/uBlf1B9pEIBw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; b=SpSkvEdwpZLOoyNDgo7oKQp3dBLW/tl6WKJ6WTaHHYzXKRDDS+Y3sdBgDldwdQk8OO lhovESI+kZKYQdYaE+ScYf2Q/q6odJEf7ykr906IuXC+larXqdXB1AQz0vi/ZC3rJoR3 p9d7pslOv8rD4Vs4nQxhV+ih0ZQY+zpi+5MK0= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: rwstracy@gmail.com Received: by 10.224.59.130 with SMTP id l2mr2388975qah.73.1252086252170; Fri, 04 Sep 2009 10:44:12 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2009 13:44:12 -0400 X-Google-Sender-Auth: edbca729a562a2f9 Message-ID: <1b4b137c0909041044p75538db0uf900c1cd45a871a0@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] 2 stroke buildup in sump From: Tracy Crook To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=00c09f99deaf49f7a50472c40c9b --00c09f99deaf49f7a50472c40c9b Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Had not considered 2 stroke buildup in sump from that angle Tracy...........Are rotor side seals there to keep sump oil out of the combustion chamber , help contain compression , or a combination of both.....I theorized that warn seals and "O" rings................ SNIP Kelly Kelly, Since you mentioned the O-rings, I am assuming you meant the oil control rings, not the side seals in my last reply. Side seals of course have no O-rings. Side seals hydroplane over the oil in both directions. Oil seals do it in only 1 direction. Tracy (terminology is such a bitch) On Fri, Sep 4, 2009 at 12:18 PM, Kelly Troyer wrote: > Tracy, Yvon Group, > Had not considered 2 stroke buildup in sump from that angle > Tracy...........Are rotor side seals > there to keep sump oil out of the combustion chamber , help contain > compression , or a combination > of both..............I theorized that warn seals and "O" rings would allow > excess 2 stroke oil past them > by essentially riding over the oil film (hydroplaning) at high > rpm............. > -- > Kelly Troyer > "Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine > "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2 > "Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold > > > > > > -------------- Original message from Tracy Crook : > -------------- > > I could be wrong, but the newer and better the rotor oil control rings are, > the more oil is recovered from the sidewalls when using 2 stroke in the > fuel. A worn engine would probably leave more oil in the chamber to be > burned thus eliminating the oil buildup in the pan. > > Tracy > > On Fri, Sep 4, 2009 at 11:12 AM, Yvon Cournoyer wrote: > >> *New (overhauled) engine purchased from a Mazda dealer. Air time 95 hrs. >> Ground time about half as much. I fly a 2.105:1 cogbelt PSRU. My aircraft is >> a Zenair Zenith. Yvon* >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> *From:* Kelly Troyer >> *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft >> *Sent:* Thursday, September 03, 2009 3:16 PM >> *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Help for John Slade >> >> Yvon, >> Was your 13B freshly overhauled when you began flying and how many hours >> in >> the air currently..............Condition of the rotor side seals and their >> "O" rings plus >> side plate wear steps are the main controlling factors + the percentage of >> 2 stroke >> oil............As the engine rotor side seals, "O" rings and side plates >> wear then more >> of the 2 stroke oil will get past them and into the oil sump........... >> -- >> Kelly Troyer >> "Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine >> "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2 >> "Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold >> >> >> >> >> >> -------------- Original message from Yvon Cournoyer : >> -------------- >> >> *I have been using a ratio of 1:140 for some time and still getting an >> increase in the oil pan. I do not run above 5500-5600 engine rpm. My engine >> is a 1986 13B. Yvon.* >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> *From:* Tracy Crook >> *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft >> *Sent:* Wednesday, September 02, 2009 10:04 PM >> *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Help for John Slade >> >> Just talked to John again. Engine emergency caused by clogged fuel >> filters (John mentioned debris caused by some fuel tank work of some sort?). >> Saw fuel pressure fluctuations on EM2 and increased EGTs then rpm started >> falling. After landing, John found the clogged filters & cleaned them >> out. That procedure called for closing a shutoff valve from the tanks. >> After cleaning the filters, he forgot to turn the shutoff valves back on, >> hence the failure to start. He eventually noticed that fuel pressure was >> super low and that eventually jogged the memory of the shutoff valves. >> After opening them, the engine started immediately. >> >> The RPM anomaly is still a mystery & I didn't think to ask him if that was >> back to normal. I'm sure we will hear more later. I'm kind of amazed that >> the engine still had good compression after 50 gallons of fuel with no oil >> added was used. >> >> Just random thoughts: I'm thinking I should cut back on the amount of >> oil I add. I'm still accumulating 2 stroke in the crankcase when using 3/4 >> oz per gallon of gas. Think I'll go to 1/2 oz / gal. on Renesis. >> Peripheral exhaust port 13Bs need more oil than Renesis but 1 oz/gal is >> probably overkill. >> >> Tracy >> >> >> On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 8:46 PM, David Leonard wrote: >> >>> So what caused the evergency landing? >>> >>> Dave Leonard >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 5:39 PM, Tracy Crook wrote: >>> >>>> Called John to see if I could help. What a saga! Lots of indications >>>> that it is clogged fuel system somewhere but also some symptoms that >>>> occurred simultaneously that make no sense at all (like a double rpm >>>> indication). John says compression is good/normal in spite of two fuel >>>> stops with no oil added to gas (forgot). Engine was running normal at >>>> shutdown after emergency landing but now won't start. Unfortunately John >>>> has none of the EC2 upgrades including ignition & injector diagnostics and >>>> has not tried checking for spark while cranking since that is a 2 man job. >>>> I forgot to ask if he had tried the backup on EC2 controller but I assume he >>>> did. >>>> >>>> Tracy >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 7:45 PM, Bulent Aliev < >>>> bulent@enginegearonline.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Guys, I just got a call from John Slade. He had to do an emergency >>>>> landing in Graystone *17FL *(Ocala) FL. His engine will not start >>>>> again, and he needs someone with rotary experience to talk to. His cel # is >>>>> 860-271-3941. Please give him a call if you can help in any way. >>>>> Buly >>>>> Bulent Aliev >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> David Leonard >>> >>> Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY >>> http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net >>> http://RotaryRoster.net >>> >> >> > --00c09f99deaf49f7a50472c40c9b Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Had not considered 2 stroke buildup in sump from th= at angle Tracy...........Are rotor=A0side seals
there to keep sump oil out of the combustion chamber , help contain co= mpression , or a combination
of both.....I theorized that warn seals and "O" rings............= ....=A0 SNIP
Kelly

Kelly,=A0 Since you mentioned the O-rings, I a= m assuming you meant the oil control rings, not the side seals in my last r= eply.=A0 Side seals of course have no O-rings.=A0 Side seals hydroplane ove= r the oil in both directions.=A0 Oil seals do it in only 1 direction.

Tracy (terminology is such a bitch)



On Fri, Sep 4, 2009 at 12:18 PM, Kelly Troyer <= keltro@att.net> wrote:
<= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 2= 04, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
Tracy, Yvon=A0Group,
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Had not considered 2 stroke buildup in sump from th= at angle Tracy...........Are rotor=A0side seals
there to keep sump oil out of the combustion chamber , help contain co= mpression , or a combination
of both..............I theorized that warn seals and "O" rin= gs would allow excess 2 stroke oil past them
by essentially riding over the oil film=A0 (hydroplaning) at high rpm.= ............=A0
--
Kelly Troyer
"Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine
&q= uot;RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold <= br>


=A0
-------------- Original message from Tracy Crook &= lt;tracy@rota= ryaviation.com>: --------------

I could be wrong, but the newer and better the rotor oil control rings = are, the more oil is recovered from the sidewalls when using 2 stroke in th= e fuel.=A0 A worn engine would probably leave more oil in the chamber to be= burned thus eliminating the oil buildup in the pan.

Tracy

On Fri, Sep 4, 2009 at 11:12 AM, Yvon Cournoyer = <geryvon@videotron.ca> wrote:
New (overhauled) engine purchased f= rom a Mazda dealer. Air time 95 hrs. Ground time about half as much. I fly = a 2.105:1 cogbelt PSRU. My aircraft is a Zenair Zenith. Yvon
----- Original Message -----
From: Kelly Troyer
Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 3= :16 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Help for Jo= hn Slade

Yvon,
=A0 Was your 13B freshly overhauled when you began flying and how many= hours in
the air currently..............Condition of the rotor side seals and t= heir "O" rings plus
side plate wear steps are the main controlling factors + the percentag= e of 2 stroke
oil............As the engine rotor side seals, "O" rings and= side plates wear then more
of the 2 stroke oil will get past them and into the oil sump..........= .
--
Kelly Troyer
"Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine
&q= uot;RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold <= br>


=A0
-------------- Original message from Yvon Cournoye= r <geryvon@vid= eotron.ca>: --------------

I have been using a ratio of 1:140 = for some time and still getting an increase in the oil pan. I do not run ab= ove 5500-5600 engine rpm. My engine is a 1986 13B. Yvon.
----- Original Message -----
From: Tracy Crook
Sent: Wednesday, September 02, 2009 = 10:04 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Help for Jo= hn Slade

Just talked to John again.=A0 Engine emergency caused by clo= gged fuel filters (John mentioned debris caused by some fuel tank work of s= ome sort?). =A0 Saw fuel pressure fluctuations on EM2 and increased EGTs th= en rpm started falling. =A0 After landing, John found the clogged filters &= amp; cleaned them out.=A0 That procedure called for closing a shutoff valve= from the tanks.=A0 After cleaning the filters, he forgot to turn the shuto= ff valves back on, hence the failure to start.=A0 He eventually noticed tha= t fuel pressure was super low and that eventually jogged the memory of the = shutoff valves. =A0=A0 After opening them, the engine started immediately.= =A0

The RPM anomaly is still a mystery & I didn't think to ask him = if that was back to normal.=A0 I'm sure we will hear more later.=A0 I&#= 39;m kind of amazed that the engine still had good compression after 50 gal= lons of fuel with no oil added was used.

Just random thoughts: =A0 I'm thinking I should cut back on the amo= unt of oil I add.=A0 I'm still accumulating 2 stroke in the crankcase w= hen using 3/4 oz per gallon of gas.=A0 Think I'll go to 1/2 oz / gal. o= n Renesis.=A0 Peripheral exhaust port 13Bs need more oil than Renesis but 1= oz/gal is probably overkill.

Tracy


On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 8:46 PM, David Leonard <wdleonard@gmail.com> wrote:
So what caused th= e evergency landing?

Dave Leonard=20


On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 5:39 PM, Tracy Crook <tracy@rotaryaviation.com> wrote:
Called John to se= e if I could help.=A0 What a saga! =A0=A0 Lots of indications that it is cl= ogged fuel system somewhere but also some symptoms that occurred simultaneo= usly that make no sense at all (like a double rpm indication).=A0=A0 John s= ays compression is good/normal in spite of two fuel stops with no oil added= to gas (forgot).=A0 Engine was running normal at shutdown after emergency = landing but now won't start.=A0 Unfortunately John has none of the EC2 = upgrades including ignition & injector diagnostics and has not tried ch= ecking for spark while cranking since that is a 2 man job.=A0=A0 I forgot t= o ask if he had tried the backup on EC2 controller but I assume he did.=A0 =

Tracy=20


On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 7:45 PM, Bulent Aliev <bulent@enginegearonline.com> wrote:
Guys, I just got = a call from John Slade. He had to do an emergency landing in Graystone 17FL <= /b>(Ocala) FL. His engine will not start again, and he needs = someone with rotary experience to talk to. His cel # is 860-271-3941. Pleas= e give him a call if you can help in any way.
Buly
Bulent Aliev




<= br>
--
David Leonard

Turbo Ro= tary RV-6 N4VY
http://N4VY.Rot= aryRoster.net
http://RotaryRoster.net

=


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