X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from qw-out-2122.google.com ([74.125.92.27] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.16) with ESMTP id 3836684 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 04 Sep 2009 13:37:55 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=74.125.92.27; envelope-from=rwstracy@gmail.com Received: by qw-out-2122.google.com with SMTP id 3so280721qwe.25 for ; Fri, 04 Sep 2009 10:37:21 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=auAnoWYrXauIPxwB/gpPM6Dal8fQLcp0ruoJAM8XfBk=; b=pjtkukIijTFPEN68MG7WjIn/FUk0vvtqIX94jizHX2x/cduBNBHUBw4H/KXigX26Gy LhgnSniRNuHjGjUAITgrMMny89t1/XSZjfHCSpfyXzuXvCQkCAlBK2YtuAnXfamDr2EW qQVJ/gh6f9DBPPO1l/xT/NOUYjLiV2iUDJ2io= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; b=dU9mHoAldwoIBBCDjkUt3SaUxwtLO5R6gTxrueYcl9ImcJx5hc6s/s5WZ6GD0iucB4 djrU5JfEBUQmQXFaEMXkPn8/PK3yahi56r3pelFnVvfs4X7wUhbj/14P62WAJjMxtDZi Q5CVhetcRhkZ4w7D57xBv7C4Fs8odual+DFq8= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: rwstracy@gmail.com Received: by 10.224.57.3 with SMTP id a3mr7677595qah.77.1252085841361; Fri, 04 Sep 2009 10:37:21 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2009 13:37:21 -0400 X-Google-Sender-Auth: e0caf158bedeb486 Message-ID: <1b4b137c0909041037m26905ea4pc6c4781fa3392745@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] 2 stroke buildup in sump From: Tracy Crook To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=00c09fa886ddcd975c0472c3f381 --00c09fa886ddcd975c0472c3f381 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Kelly, your theory of operation is correct but that keeps excess oil on the crankcase side from getting to the combustion side. The oil seals have no compression function. With excess 2 stroke on the CC side, the oil rings DO hydroplane over the thicker oil film when going toward the CC but scrape it back to the pan side when going the other direction. That's how we get excess oil in the pan. Note that the edge of the oil seal (when not worn) is beveled in order to perform this trick. Tracy On Fri, Sep 4, 2009 at 12:18 PM, Kelly Troyer wrote: > Tracy, Yvon Group, > Had not considered 2 stroke buildup in sump from that angle > Tracy...........Are rotor side seals > there to keep sump oil out of the combustion chamber , help contain > compression , or a combination > of both..............I theorized that warn seals and "O" rings would allow > excess 2 stroke oil past them > by essentially riding over the oil film (hydroplaning) at high > rpm............. > -- > Kelly Troyer > "Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine > "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2 > "Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold > > > > > > -------------- Original message from Tracy Crook : > -------------- > > I could be wrong, but the newer and better the rotor oil control rings are, > the more oil is recovered from the sidewalls when using 2 stroke in the > fuel. A worn engine would probably leave more oil in the chamber to be > burned thus eliminating the oil buildup in the pan. > > Tracy > > On Fri, Sep 4, 2009 at 11:12 AM, Yvon Cournoyer wrote: > >> *New (overhauled) engine purchased from a Mazda dealer. Air time 95 hrs. >> Ground time about half as much. I fly a 2.105:1 cogbelt PSRU. My aircraft is >> a Zenair Zenith. Yvon* >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> *From:* Kelly Troyer >> *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft >> *Sent:* Thursday, September 03, 2009 3:16 PM >> *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Help for John Slade >> >> Yvon, >> Was your 13B freshly overhauled when you began flying and how many hours >> in >> the air currently..............Condition of the rotor side seals and their >> "O" rings plus >> side plate wear steps are the main controlling factors + the percentage of >> 2 stroke >> oil............As the engine rotor side seals, "O" rings and side plates >> wear then more >> of the 2 stroke oil will get past them and into the oil sump........... >> -- >> Kelly Troyer >> "Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine >> "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2 >> "Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold >> >> >> >> >> >> -------------- Original message from Yvon Cournoyer : >> -------------- >> >> *I have been using a ratio of 1:140 for some time and still getting an >> increase in the oil pan. I do not run above 5500-5600 engine rpm. My engine >> is a 1986 13B. Yvon.* >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> *From:* Tracy Crook >> *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft >> *Sent:* Wednesday, September 02, 2009 10:04 PM >> *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Help for John Slade >> >> Just talked to John again. Engine emergency caused by clogged fuel >> filters (John mentioned debris caused by some fuel tank work of some sort?). >> Saw fuel pressure fluctuations on EM2 and increased EGTs then rpm started >> falling. After landing, John found the clogged filters & cleaned them >> out. That procedure called for closing a shutoff valve from the tanks. >> After cleaning the filters, he forgot to turn the shutoff valves back on, >> hence the failure to start. He eventually noticed that fuel pressure was >> super low and that eventually jogged the memory of the shutoff valves. >> After opening them, the engine started immediately. >> >> The RPM anomaly is still a mystery & I didn't think to ask him if that was >> back to normal. I'm sure we will hear more later. I'm kind of amazed that >> the engine still had good compression after 50 gallons of fuel with no oil >> added was used. >> >> Just random thoughts: I'm thinking I should cut back on the amount of >> oil I add. I'm still accumulating 2 stroke in the crankcase when using 3/4 >> oz per gallon of gas. Think I'll go to 1/2 oz / gal. on Renesis. >> Peripheral exhaust port 13Bs need more oil than Renesis but 1 oz/gal is >> probably overkill. >> >> Tracy >> >> >> On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 8:46 PM, David Leonard wrote: >> >>> So what caused the evergency landing? >>> >>> Dave Leonard >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 5:39 PM, Tracy Crook wrote: >>> >>>> Called John to see if I could help. What a saga! Lots of indications >>>> that it is clogged fuel system somewhere but also some symptoms that >>>> occurred simultaneously that make no sense at all (like a double rpm >>>> indication). John says compression is good/normal in spite of two fuel >>>> stops with no oil added to gas (forgot). Engine was running normal at >>>> shutdown after emergency landing but now won't start. Unfortunately John >>>> has none of the EC2 upgrades including ignition & injector diagnostics and >>>> has not tried checking for spark while cranking since that is a 2 man job. >>>> I forgot to ask if he had tried the backup on EC2 controller but I assume he >>>> did. >>>> >>>> Tracy >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 7:45 PM, Bulent Aliev < >>>> bulent@enginegearonline.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Guys, I just got a call from John Slade. He had to do an emergency >>>>> landing in Graystone *17FL *(Ocala) FL. His engine will not start >>>>> again, and he needs someone with rotary experience to talk to. His cel # is >>>>> 860-271-3941. Please give him a call if you can help in any way. >>>>> Buly >>>>> Bulent Aliev >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> David Leonard >>> >>> Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY >>> http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net >>> http://RotaryRoster.net >>> >> >> > --00c09fa886ddcd975c0472c3f381 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kelly,=A0 your theory of operation is correct but that keeps excess oil on = the crankcase side from getting to the combustion side.=A0 The oil seals ha= ve no compression function.=A0 With=A0 excess 2 stroke on the CC side, the = oil rings DO hydroplane over the thicker oil film when going toward the CC = but scrape it back to the pan side when going the other direction.=A0 That&= #39;s how we get excess oil in the pan.=A0 Note that the edge of the oil se= al (when not worn) is beveled in order to perform this trick.

Tracy

On Fri, Sep 4, 2009 at 12:18 PM= , Kelly Troyer <kelt= ro@att.net> wrote:
Tracy, Yvon=A0Group,
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Had not considered 2 stroke buildup in sump from th= at angle Tracy...........Are rotor=A0side seals
there to keep sump oil out of the combustion chamber , help contain co= mpression , or a combination
of both..............I theorized that warn seals and "O" rin= gs would allow excess 2 stroke oil past them
by essentially riding over the oil film=A0 (hydroplaning) at high rpm.= ............=A0
--
Kelly Troyer
"Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine
&q= uot;RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold <= br>


=A0
-------------- Original message from Tracy Crook &= lt;tracy@rota= ryaviation.com>: --------------

I could be wrong, but the newer and better the rotor oil control rings = are, the more oil is recovered from the sidewalls when using 2 stroke in th= e fuel.=A0 A worn engine would probably leave more oil in the chamber to be= burned thus eliminating the oil buildup in the pan.

Tracy

On Fri, Sep 4, 2009 at 11:12 AM, Yvon Cournoyer = <geryvon@videotron.ca> wrote:
New (overhauled) engine purchased f= rom a Mazda dealer. Air time 95 hrs. Ground time about half as much. I fly = a 2.105:1 cogbelt PSRU. My aircraft is a Zenair Zenith. Yvon
----- Original Message -----
From: Kelly Troyer
Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 3= :16 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Help for Jo= hn Slade

Yvon,
=A0 Was your 13B freshly overhauled when you began flying and how many= hours in
the air currently..............Condition of the rotor side seals and t= heir "O" rings plus
side plate wear steps are the main controlling factors + the percentag= e of 2 stroke
oil............As the engine rotor side seals, "O" rings and= side plates wear then more
of the 2 stroke oil will get past them and into the oil sump..........= .
--
Kelly Troyer
"Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine
&q= uot;RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold <= br>


=A0
-------------- Original message from Yvon Cournoye= r <geryvon@vid= eotron.ca>: --------------

I have been using a ratio of 1:140 = for some time and still getting an increase in the oil pan. I do not run ab= ove 5500-5600 engine rpm. My engine is a 1986 13B. Yvon.
----- Original Message -----
From: Tracy Crook
Sent: Wednesday, September 02, 2009 = 10:04 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Help for Jo= hn Slade

Just talked to John again.=A0 Engine emergency caused by clo= gged fuel filters (John mentioned debris caused by some fuel tank work of s= ome sort?). =A0 Saw fuel pressure fluctuations on EM2 and increased EGTs th= en rpm started falling. =A0 After landing, John found the clogged filters &= amp; cleaned them out.=A0 That procedure called for closing a shutoff valve= from the tanks.=A0 After cleaning the filters, he forgot to turn the shuto= ff valves back on, hence the failure to start.=A0 He eventually noticed tha= t fuel pressure was super low and that eventually jogged the memory of the = shutoff valves. =A0=A0 After opening them, the engine started immediately.= =A0

The RPM anomaly is still a mystery & I didn't think to ask him = if that was back to normal.=A0 I'm sure we will hear more later.=A0 I&#= 39;m kind of amazed that the engine still had good compression after 50 gal= lons of fuel with no oil added was used.

Just random thoughts: =A0 I'm thinking I should cut back on the amo= unt of oil I add.=A0 I'm still accumulating 2 stroke in the crankcase w= hen using 3/4 oz per gallon of gas.=A0 Think I'll go to 1/2 oz / gal. o= n Renesis.=A0 Peripheral exhaust port 13Bs need more oil than Renesis but 1= oz/gal is probably overkill.

Tracy


On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 8:46 PM, David Leonard <wdleonard@gmail.com> wrote:
So what caused th= e evergency landing?

Dave Leonard=20


On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 5:39 PM, Tracy Crook <tracy@rotaryaviation.com> wrote:
Called John to se= e if I could help.=A0 What a saga! =A0=A0 Lots of indications that it is cl= ogged fuel system somewhere but also some symptoms that occurred simultaneo= usly that make no sense at all (like a double rpm indication).=A0=A0 John s= ays compression is good/normal in spite of two fuel stops with no oil added= to gas (forgot).=A0 Engine was running normal at shutdown after emergency = landing but now won't start.=A0 Unfortunately John has none of the EC2 = upgrades including ignition & injector diagnostics and has not tried ch= ecking for spark while cranking since that is a 2 man job.=A0=A0 I forgot t= o ask if he had tried the backup on EC2 controller but I assume he did.=A0 =

Tracy=20


On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 7:45 PM, Bulent Aliev <bulent@enginegearonline.com> wrote:
Guys, I just got = a call from John Slade. He had to do an emergency landing in Graystone 17FL <= /b>(Ocala) FL. His engine will not start again, and he needs = someone with rotary experience to talk to. His cel # is 860-271-3941. Pleas= e give him a call if you can help in any way.
Buly
Bulent Aliev




<= br>
--
David Leonard

Turbo Ro= tary RV-6 N4VY
http://N4VY.Rot= aryRoster.net
http://RotaryRoster.net

=


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