X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail-bw0-f211.google.com ([209.85.218.211] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.14) with ESMTP id 3746032 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 05 Jul 2009 22:21:41 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.218.211; envelope-from=msteitle@gmail.com Received: by bwz7 with SMTP id 7so3763052bwz.19 for ; Sun, 05 Jul 2009 19:21:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=wCfds7fSuspzLpMVSKlZrTXa3xaRP09UcTYwhKC5FLs=; b=GSljyn++wBw9bqyFLRBTqcKW20CWhjh5p6MkM5rB4oHwoF8u7YNQNY+OdS74jau2e9 YgSm3F+thji8ykRx98BinY1VJY+pLMjoeJ1A8PckXh8tCxsJQtu45gWsrJeJ5T8FzQrf XoojeWesUm3JDfVFkdFihLuUmYiutJnJmZnpc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=hud9ltI58pgkAujkmQql/Nv+URW0E1zEHfxdVAyIhS/YteUF6PoV/Tic4KOdAR7Ije kncJ1e4yqBoK5nRRm156MEMcwBWASAx3OTH+B6NR6wRLaOp8Cyi+JKibuyomGIj7RpHO oIhlTIG4Zv+81T2vaWo6kSFb7YYR/GQIT8fC0= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.112.205 with SMTP id x13mr4035149bkp.213.1246846866055; Sun, 05 Jul 2009 19:21:06 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 21:21:06 -0500 Message-ID: <5cf132c0907051921o2346ab59u4ce590ee29d7f935@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Modify Alternator for External Regulator From: Mark Steitle To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016368e21cc8a6452046e0028ce --0016368e21cc8a6452046e0028ce Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I modified the two ND 50A alternators for my 20B install. Both are working fine and I appreciate the fact that I can manually shut either alternator down if I choose to do so. It is a very simple mod to remove the internal regualtors from these units. I gave a short talk at the Rotary Roundup a few years ago. Somewhere I have a how-to article if anyone is interested. It is probably somewhere in the FlyRotary archives. Mark S. Austin, TX On Sun, Jul 5, 2009 at 12:07 PM, Kelly Troyer wrote: > > Group, > > I appreciate all the different opinions and perspectives about this > subject............Each of us as > experimenters has to decide for themselves their comfortable risk > level...........I currently have a > Mazda alternator modified as described on my Chevrolet V6 powered 1988 RX= 7 > with about > 60,000 miles on the conversion (My 13B lost compression and I > feel Rotarys are > wasted in cars so will now power my Dyke Delta)...............The interna= l > regulator failed but > failed open instead of an internal short which would have allowed runaway > voltage.........I do > realize that the majority of failures fail open , "But" my personal risk > level still wanted the ability > to switch off field voltage and shut the alternator down in my > "Delta"...........I do not currently > have a switch in the field circuit of my RX7 but will be installing one t= o > test this as there has > been some discussion that residual magnetism in the fields might prevent > the alternator from > shuting down............Will report my findings........... > > I realize that abilities among experimental aircraft builders vary > but in my opinion if you > can build a safe and flyable aircraft with a Mazda Rotary engine then the > skills needed to > modify a Mazda alternator should be no problem...........This is not rock= et > science , all you > are doing is removing an internal regulator (I think the entire circuitry > should be removed as > I previously stated) the brushes connected to ground and the field windin= gs > connected to > a now unused external connector..........Until the advent of the internal > regulator alternators > were all built this way electrically.............IMHO & FWIW > -- > Kelly Troyer > "Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine > "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2 > "Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold > > -------------- Original message from "Mike Wills" : > -------------- > > > Charlie, > > > > Thanks for this perspective on the risk/benefit ratio of this particula= r > > mod. I too fly with an unmodified 1 wire alternator. Or at least I woul= d > if > > I were currently flying. > > > > Our airplanes are complicated enough what with EFI, EI, microprocessors= , > > etc., without adding to the complexity (and potential failure modes) by > > adding "protection" to guard against 1 in a million failures. At least > thats > > my perspective. > > > > Mike Wills > > RV-4 N144MW > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Charlie England" > > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Overvoltage ? [FlyRotary] Re: Modify Alternato= r > for > > External Regulator > > > > > If you have a controllable circuit breaker or a switchable relay in > series > > > with the B-lead, you can control an over-voltage event. The > Aeroelectric > > > connection offered a 'crowbar' type protector for a while that would > > > disconnect the B-lead automatically, and if memory serves, Bob Nuckol= ls > > > > now says that with an effective attention-getter to notify of > > > over-voltage, the battery will easily damp the voltage to below > > > damage-causing levels long enough to hit the B-lead disconnect. The > only > > > issue left is whether there is enough combustible material in the > > > alternator itself to cause any real danger as it runs away, > electrically > > > isolated from the rest of the plane. > > > > > > My personal opinion is that each person should carefully evaluate the > > > relative risks of opening & modifying an inherently extremely reliabl= e > > > device, at their personal skill level. I spent about half my working > life > > > doing electronics service work and I'm pretty confident in my abiliti= es > in > > > this area. My flying RV-4 (Lyc) has an unmodified '1-wire' alternator= . > > > > > > Charlie > > > > > > Ed Anderson wrote: > > >> > > >> Just curious, Todd. When you had your alternator run-a-way, did you > have > > >> a battery or other load on the line. Yes and you are correct, just > > >> because the odds are 1 in 1000,000 does not mean your 1 couldn=92t c= ome > up > > >> tomorrow. And I STILL DON=94T use approved plastic fuel cans (or any > other > > >> kind) =96 one refueling fire was enough {:>). > > >> > > >> Thanks for providing that info to the list =96 now others can see > > >> alternator over voltage is a possibility with a car alternator and > > >> without the modification to the field coil circuit may be impossible > to > > >> shut down =96 short of shutting down your engine. > > >> > > >> But, if 60 years of experience is not worth anything regarding > > >> alternators =96 then what is experience worth regarding anything. Li= ke > just > > >> about everything else in this =93hobby=94, you are constantly assess= ing > risk > > >> (or should be) and I decided the risk of modifying my alternator to > > >> eliminate the remote risk (base on my experience) of over voltage wa= s > > >> higher than an over voltage condition. YMMV {:>) > > >> > > >> Ed. > > >> *On Behalf Of *Todd Bartrim > > >> *Sent:* Sunday, July 05, 2009 3:07 AM > > >> *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Modify Alternator for External Regulator > > >> > > >> Yeah, that's what I said too Ed, then it happened to me when I was > still > > >> early in my flight test (on the ground fortunatly). > > >> However after years of carelessly pouring regular old auto fuel from > > >> plastic fuel cans, despite all the warnings, I've yet to have a > problem. > > >> But I did hear of a guy that caught his plane on fire this way. ;) > > >> So yeah, I'm sure it could happen. Hope it doesn't though. It would > sure > > >> ruin my day. > > >> > > >> Could it happen, undoubtedly, however, in 60 + years of driving > > >> automobiles, I have never, never had an alternator run wild =96 the = ones > > > >> that failed, just died. So if I can get by another 60 years {:>), th= en > I=92ll > > >> probably hang up my wings (or who knows perhaps get another pair {:>= ) > > >> > > >> Ed > > --0016368e21cc8a6452046e0028ce Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I modified the two ND 50A alternators for my 20B install.=A0 Both are = working fine and I appreciate the fact that I can manually shut either alte= rnator down if I choose to do so.=A0 It is a very simple mod to remove the = internal regualtors from these units.=A0 I gave a short talk at the Rotary = Roundup a few years ago.=A0 Somewhere I have a how-to=A0article if anyone i= s interested.=A0 It is probably somewhere in the FlyRotary archives.
=A0
Mark S.
Austin, TX

On Sun, Jul 5, 2009 at 12:07 PM, Kelly Troyer <keltro@att.net>= ; wrote:
=A0
Group,
=A0
=A0=A0=A0 I appreciate all the different opinions and perspectives abo= ut this subject............Each of us as
experimenters has to decide for themselves their comfortable risk leve= l...........I currently have a
Mazda alternator modified as described on my Chevrolet V6 powered 1988= RX7 with about
60,000 miles on the conversion (My 13B lost compression <apex seal&= gt; and I feel Rotarys are
wasted in cars so will now power my Dyke Delta)...............The inte= rnal regulator failed but
failed open instead of an internal short which would have allowed runa= way voltage.........I do
realize that the majority of failures fail open , "But" my p= ersonal risk level still wanted the ability
to switch off field voltage and shut the alternator down in my "D= elta"...........I do not currently
have a switch in the field circuit of my RX7 but will be installing on= e to test this as there has
been some discussion that residual magnetism in the fields might preve= nt the alternator from
shuting down............Will report my findings...........
=A0
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 I realize that abilities among experimental aircraft b= uilders vary but in my opinion if you
can build a safe and flyable aircraft with a=A0Mazda=A0Rotary engine= =A0then the skills needed to
modify a Mazda alternator should be no problem...........This is not r= ocket science , all you
are doing is removing an internal regulator=A0(I think the entire circ= uitry should be removed as
I previously stated) the brushes connected to ground and the field win= dings connected to
a now unused external connector..........Until the advent of the inter= nal regulator alternators
were all built this way electrically.............IMHO & FWIW
--
Kelly Troyer
"Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine
&q= uot;RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold <= br>
-------------- Original message from "Mike Wills" = <rv-4mike@cox.net<= /a>>: --------------

> Charlie,
>
> Thanks for this perspective on the risk= /benefit ratio of this particular
> mod. I too fly with an unmodifie= d 1 wire alternator. Or at least I would if
> I were currently flyin= g.
>
> Our airplanes are complicated enough what with EFI, EI, micro= processors,
> etc., without adding to the complexity (and potential = failure modes) by
> adding "protection" to guard against 1= in a million failures. At least thats
> my perspective.
>
> Mike Wills
> RV-4 N144MW
= >
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Charlie Eng= land"
> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Overvoltage ? [FlyRotary] Re: = Modify Alternator for
> External Regulator
>
> > If you have a controllable c= ircuit breaker or a switchable relay in series
> > with the B-lea= d, you can control an over-voltage event. The Aeroelectric
> > co= nnection offered a 'crowbar' type protector for a while that would =
> > disconnect the B-lead automatically, and if memory serves, Bob Nu= ckolls
> > now says that with an effective attention-getter to no= tify of
> > over-voltage, the battery will easily damp the voltag= e to below
> > damage-causing levels long enough to hit the B-lead disconnect. T= he only
> > issue left is whether there is enough combustible mat= erial in the
> > alternator itself to cause any real danger as it= runs away, electrically
> > isolated from the rest of the plane.
> >
> > = My personal opinion is that each person should carefully evaluate the
&= gt; > relative risks of opening & modifying an inherently extremely = reliable
> > device, at their personal skill level. I spent about half my work= ing life
> > doing electronics service work and I'm pretty co= nfident in my abilities in
> > this area. My flying RV-4 (Lyc) ha= s an unmodified '1-wire' alternator.
> >
> > Charlie
> >
> > Ed Anderson wro= te:
> >>
> >> Just curious, Todd. When you had yo= ur alternator run-a-way, did you have
> >> a battery or other = load on the line. Yes and you are correct, just
> >> because the odds are 1 in 1000,000 does not mean your 1 could= n=92t come up
> >> tomorrow. And I STILL DON=94T use approved = plastic fuel cans (or any other
> >> kind) =96 one refueling f= ire was enough {:>).
> >>
> >> Thanks for providing that info to the list = =96 now others can see
> >> alternator over voltage is a possi= bility with a car alternator and
> >> without the modification= to the field coil circuit may be impossible to
> >> shut down =96 short of shutting down your engine.
> &g= t;>
> >> But, if 60 years of experience is not worth anythi= ng regarding
> >> alternators =96 then what is experience wort= h regarding anything. Like just
> >> about everything else in this =93hobby=94, you are constantly= assessing risk
> >> (or should be) and I decided the risk of = modifying my alternator to
> >> eliminate the remote risk (bas= e on my experience) of over voltage was
> >> higher than an over voltage condition. YMMV {:>)
> = >>
> >> Ed.
> >> *On Behalf Of *Todd Bartri= m
> >> *Sent:* Sunday, July 05, 2009 3:07 AM
> >>= *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Modify Alternator for External Regulator
> >>
> >> Yeah, that's what I said too Ed, then i= t happened to me when I was still
> >> early in my flight test= (on the ground fortunatly).
> >> However after years of carel= essly pouring regular old auto fuel from
> >> plastic fuel cans, despite all the warnings, I've yet to = have a problem.
> >> But I did hear of a guy that caught his p= lane on fire this way. ;)
> >> So yeah, I'm sure it could = happen. Hope it doesn't though. It would sure
> >> ruin my day.
> >>
> >> Could it hap= pen, undoubtedly, however, in 60 + years of driving
> >> autom= obiles, I have never, never had an alternator run wild =96 the ones
>= ; >> that failed, just died. So if I can get by another 60 years {:&g= t;), then I=92ll
> >> probably hang up my wings (or who knows perhaps get another p= air {:>)
> >>
> >> Ed
<= /blockquote>

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