X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from fmailhost06.isp.att.net ([204.127.217.106] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.14) with ESMTP id 3745971 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 05 Jul 2009 21:06:03 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=204.127.217.106; envelope-from=keltro@att.net DKIM-Signature: v=1; q=dns/txt; d=att.net; s=dkim01; i=keltro@att.net; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; t=1246842364; h=Content-Type: MIME-Version:Message-Id:Date:Subject:To:From; bh=AEE2hQm+M3zFnKvtGx Qbkr0adQnXWV5PZtyim3aO89w=; b=irnV3OUoxmXgORV6oC54I/An3Q3efr9etaWAu rh8QFgUcRSLq3hSSIQX06m9DG5hCXYm6AzwwkGVDgJXJwpUVw== Received: from fwebmail33.isp.att.net ([204.127.221.133]) by isp.att.net (frfwmhc06) with SMTP id <20090706010529H0600i20fbe>; Mon, 6 Jul 2009 01:05:29 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [204.127.221.133] Received: from [64.250.206.152] by fwebmail33.isp.att.net; Mon, 06 Jul 2009 01:05:28 +0000 From: "Kelly Troyer" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Subject: Modify Alternator for External Regulator Date: Mon, 06 Jul 2009 01:05:28 +0000 Message-Id: <070620090105.8806.4A514DD80009EE940000226622243323629B0A02D29B9B0EBF019D9B040A05@att.net> X-Mailer: AT&T Message Center Version 1 (Mar 2 2009) X-Authenticated-Sender: a2VsdHJvQGF0dC5uZXQ= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_8806_1246842328_0" --NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_8806_1246842328_0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Group, I found the following discussion on the Bob Nuckolls "AeroConnection" s= ite that would seem to add credence to my opinion about the modification of internal regul= ated alternators to external regulation.............FWIW Alternator Internal Regulator > I was sure hoping someone knew what could cause the voltage regulator to = go out on the ND internal regulated alternator. Repair shop said I may have shorted out the = alternator light circuit which in turn can cause the regulator to fail. I did mount my relay using o= ne of the existing three bolts that appear to run through the back of the alt but they are not conne= cted to anything I am aware of. I used a smaller lighter high amp relay instead of the big contac= tor. Any thoughts would be most welcome. A Use of an automotive alternator with built in regulator has some risk ass= ociated with it. There ARE failure modes within the regulators that may precipitate uncontro= llable voltage run-away. By-in-large, the warning light driver built into these products a= re not terribly useful . . . the ONLY all inclusive warning system for monitoring alternator performance= should be a low voltage sensing system that lights up for bus voltage below 13.0 volts. Ign= ore the built in lamp circuit. I presume the "relay" you cited is for the external ov protection. If I int= erpret your words correctly, you have mounted a relay right on the back of the alternator. Th= is is not recommended. This subjects the relay to much higher vibration levels from t= he engine than it would experience if mounted on the firewall. I gotta be honest with you folks . . . I have published work-arounds for le= tting you "get by" with internally regulated alternators . . . I DON'T RECOMMEND THEM. Whe= n we design new systems for aircraft, I really lean on my compatriots to reduce if not = eliminate relays in the system. Relays, especially those that carry heavy current -AND- get vibrate= d are some of the poorest performance devices in the airplane. This is why our latest and gre= atest Mach 2.5 GPS guided target has NO RELAYS in the power distribution system. I'd really li= ke to see the automotive alternators get modified to use external regulation. Bob . . . ------ Alternator >> Bob , any thought on why the alternator would not shut down even after t= he field was cut. It went to 28 volts. I have an order with you for the Over voltage protection = that's for sure. Richard A Sure . . . it's because MANY if not ALL automotive alternators have failu= re modes that can BYPASS the effects of any control circuits for a normally operating alt= ernator. This is why we've always suggested that really nice automotive products be modified for= external regulation and ov protection so that we can be sure of performance in a failed regulat= or situation. You'll also need an alternator disconnect contactor to go with your ov module . . = . the ov module is capable of shutting down an externally regulated alternator with no assista= nce. An INTERNALLY regulated alternator needs to be physically disconnected from th= e bus in an OV condition. See: http://aeroelectric.com/articles/bleadov.pdf Bob . . . ----- -- Kelly Troyer=20 "Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine=20 "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=20 "Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=20 -------------- Forwarded Message: --------------=20 From: "Kelly Troyer" =20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Modify Alternator for External Regulator=20 Date: Sun, 05 Jul 2009 17:08:28 +0000=20 Group, I appreciate all the different opinions and perspectives about this sub= ject............Each of us as experimenters has to decide for themselves their comfortable risk level....= .......I currently have a Mazda alternator modified as described on my Chevrolet V6 powered 1988 RX7 = with about 60,000 miles on the conversion (My 13B lost compression and I f= eel Rotarys are wasted in cars so will now power my Dyke Delta)...............The internal = regulator failed but=20 failed open instead of an internal short which would have allowed runaway v= oltage.........I do realize that the majority of failures fail open , "But" my personal risk le= vel still wanted the ability to switch off field voltage and shut the alternator down in my "Delta".....= ......I do not currently have a switch in the field circuit of my RX7 but will be installing one to = test this as there has=20 been some discussion that residual magnetism in the fields might prevent th= e alternator from shuting down............Will report my findings........... I realize that abilities among experimental aircraft builders vary bu= t in my opinion if you can build a safe and flyable aircraft with a Mazda Rotary engine then the s= kills needed to modify a Mazda alternator should be no problem...........This is not rocket= science , all you are doing is removing an internal regulator (I think the entire circuitry s= hould be removed as=20 I previously stated) the brushes connected to ground and the field windings= connected to a now unused external connector..........Until the advent of the internal r= egulator alternators were all built this way electrically.............IMHO & FWIW -- Kelly Troyer=20 "Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine=20 "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=20 "Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=20 --NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_8806_1246842328_0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_8806_1246842328_1" --NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_8806_1246842328_1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Group,
    I found the following discussion on the Bob Nuckoll= s "AeroConnection" site that would
seem to add credence to my opinion about the modification of internal = regulated alternators
to external regulation.............FWIW
 

Alternator Internal Regulator

> I was sure hoping someone knew what could cause the vo= ltage regulator to go out on the ND

internal regulated alternator. Repair shop said I may have = shorted out the alternator light circuit

which in turn can cause the regulator to fail. I did mount = my relay using one of the existing three

bolts that appear to run through the back of the alt but th= ey are not connected to anything I am

aware of. I used a smaller lighter high amp relay instead o= f the big contactor. Any thoughts

would be most welcome.

A Use of an automotive alternator with built in regulator h= as some risk associated with it.

There ARE failure modes within the regulators that may prec= ipitate uncontrollable voltage

run-away. By-in-large, the warning light driver built into = these products are not terribly useful . . .

the ONLY all inclusive warning system for monitoring altern= ator performance should be a low

voltage sensing system that lights up for bus voltage below= 13.0 volts. Ignore the built in lamp

circuit.

I presume the "relay" you cited is for the external ov prot= ection. If I interpret your words

correctly, you have mounted a relay right on the back of th= e alternator. This is not

recommended. This subjects the relay to much higher vibrati= on levels from the engine than it

would experience if mounted on the firewall.

I gotta be honest with you folks . . . I have published wor= k-arounds for letting you "get

by" with internally regulated alternators . . . I DON'T REC= OMMEND THEM. When we design

new systems for aircraft, I really lean on my compatriots t= o reduce if not eliminate relays in the

system. Relays, especially those that carry heavy current -= AND- get vibrated are some of the

poorest performance devices in the airplane. This is why ou= r latest and greatest Mach 2.5 GPS

guided target has NO RELAYS in the power distribution syste= m. I'd really like to see the

automotive alternators get modified to use external regulat= ion. Bob . . .

------

Alternator

>> Bob , any thought on why the alternator would not = shut down even after the field was cut. It

went to 28 volts. I have an order with you for the Over vol= tage protection that's for sure. Richard

A Sure . . . it's because MANY if not ALL automotive altern= ators have failure modes that

can BYPASS the effects of any control circuits for a normal= ly operating alternator. This is why

we've always suggested that really nice automotive products= be modified for external regulation

and ov protection so that we can be sure of performance in = a failed regulator situation. You'll

also need an alternator disconnect contactor to go with you= r ov module . . . the ov module is

capable of shutting down an externally regulated alternator= with no assistance. An

INTERNALLY regulated alternator needs to be physically disc= onnected from the bus in an OV

condition. See: http://aeroelectric.com/articles/bleadov.pd= f Bob . . .

-----

--
Kelly Troyer
"Dyke Delta"_1= 3B ROTARY Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifol= d
-------------- Forwarded Message: --------------
From: "= Kelly Troyer" <keltro@att.net>
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Modify Al= ternator for External Regulator
Date: Sun, 05 Jul 2009 17:08:28 +0000 <= BR>
 
Group,
 
    I appreciate all the different opinions and perspec= tives about this subject............Each of us as
experimenters has to decide for themselves their comfortable risk leve= l...........I currently have a
Mazda alternator modified as described on my Chevrolet V6 powered 1988= RX7 with about
60,000 miles on the conversion (My 13B lost compression <apex seal&= gt; and I feel Rotarys are
wasted in cars so will now power my Dyke Delta)...............The inte= rnal regulator failed but
failed open instead of an internal short which would have allowed runa= way voltage.........I do
realize that the majority of failures fail open , "But" my personal ri= sk level still wanted the ability
to switch off field voltage and shut the alternator down in my "Delta"= ...........I do not currently
have a switch in the field circuit of my RX7 but will be installing on= e to test this as there has
been some discussion that residual magnetism in the fields might preve= nt the alternator from
shuting down............Will report my findings...........
 
      I realize that abilities among experime= ntal aircraft builders vary but in my opinion if you
can build a safe and flyable aircraft with a Mazda Rotary en= gine then the skills needed to
modify a Mazda alternator should be no problem...........This is not r= ocket science , all you
are doing is removing an internal regulator (I think the entire c= ircuitry should be removed as
I previously stated) the brushes connected to ground and the field win= dings connected to
a now unused external connector..........Until the advent of the inter= nal regulator alternators
were all built this way electrically.............IMHO & FWIW
--
Kelly Troyer
"Dyke Delta"_1= 3B ROTARY Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifol= d
 
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