X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from fed1rmmtao106.cox.net ([68.230.241.40] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.14) with ESMTP id 3743865 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 03 Jul 2009 11:51:03 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=68.230.241.40; envelope-from=rv-4mike@cox.net Received: from fed1rmimpo02.cox.net ([70.169.32.72]) by fed1rmmtao106.cox.net (InterMail vM.7.08.02.01 201-2186-121-102-20070209) with ESMTP id <20090703155026.VTFE25927.fed1rmmtao106.cox.net@fed1rmimpo02.cox.net> for ; Fri, 3 Jul 2009 11:50:26 -0400 Received: from wills ([68.105.87.229]) by fed1rmimpo02.cox.net with bizsmtp id BTqQ1c0024wtUdQ04TqSz0; Fri, 03 Jul 2009 11:50:26 -0400 X-VR-Score: -350.00 X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.0 c=1 a=JqIssJquC0YA:10 a=kviXuzpPAAAA:8 a=on22okXAAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=ayC55rCoAAAA:8 a=arxwEM4EAAAA:8 a=QdXCYpuVAAAA:8 a=7g1VtSJxAAAA:8 a=UretUmmEAAAA:8 a=CjxXgO3LAAAA:8 a=nUuTZ29dAAAA:8 a=N8B9JuSIAAAA:8 a=OThM51t2eryP4BujexcA:9 a=S19J3g8QMUcaGc_Ae9YA:7 a=iIIGyTfF3UeLN_lr2O7572TuxuAA:4 a=4vB-4DCPJfMA:10 a=at0Q5_2dr5wA:10 a=EzXvWhQp4_cA:10 a=rC2wZJ5BpNYA:10 a=X3cnjI82xV5-gLBc:21 a=hbbZoBjzCTc5VcSp:21 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=WMcHpJWDyyX4G6uVGioA:9 a=9ZPcGpuC9zQutKuQiSsA:7 a=Trm0ET-38DTrQxe0piK2fU7jV8gA:4 a=MSl-tDqOz04A:10 X-CM-Score: 0.00 Message-ID: <7AF8374796974FAEA7DFFCF7B19B4D72@wills> From: "Mike Wills" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: frustrating couple of days Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 08:50:24 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_003B_01C9FBBB.4E649300" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003B_01C9FBBB.4E649300 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dave, Thanks for the offer and the input. Swapping my EC into your plane would = be a desperation last move due to all of the hassles involved. And as = you say would not necessarily prove anything. I said it happens when I'm preparing to fly, but that isnt entirely = accurate. It would be more accurate to say that in the past it has = happened only when I have switched to the back-up controller which = usually occurs in prep for flight. This past weekend I had fired it up = and taxied down to EAA for lunch. After lunch I taxied back to my hangar = and prior to shutting down I ran the engine up to about 3000 RPM and = switched to the B controller. The engine died and I had to copy the A = program to B to get it to run on B. Switching to B was the only pre = takeoff checklist item I performed. I think about the only thing you hit on here that might be related is = heat. But hard to say without more instances of failure and a way to = link cause and effect. On saturday when the engine quit on B the engine = was completely cowled. On sunday when I had the second instance of an = engine quitting on B, the upper cowl was off but the lower was on. When = the staging point was lost the upper was off, lower on. Yesterday when = the engine quit on the first attempt at switching to B the engine was = completely uncowled. Maybe I'll run it up a few more times today = uncowled and if it works OK, try putting the cowl back on and see if I = can induce failure. Doesnt seem likely though that anything under cowl = could cause this sort of problem. This may all have to wait until Tracy weighs in with his opinion. I'm = not inclined to make drastic changes until I hear from him. Thanks, Mike=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: David Leonard=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 9:28 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: frustrating couple of days Bummer that it is not more consistent.... that really makes it hard!. I would like to help. If youj want, someday I can fly down and we can = put your EC2 in my plane and see if we can reporduce the issue. (I'm not = so keen about putting mine in your plane I have to admit.) = Unfortunately, sounds like even if we can't get the issue to occur in my = plane, we still haveent proved anything because it is so = intermittent.... You mention it happens more when you are prepairing to fly.. maybe it = is something else that you do when you are about to fly besides just = switching and checking the B controller. Turning on Strobes? checking = injectors? checking lead/trail sparks? checking backup fuel pump? Some = GPS or other avionics? Fuel tank selection? canopy closed switch? Some = particular engine paramiter? Using the brakes? Temperature change by = being in the sun? Cowl in place? Using the Nav/Comm? Headset plugged = in? Something else? A combination of 2 or more of those above (eg, = plugging in headset, transmitting on comm, and switching to B for = example?) Can you make it occur more reliably if you taxi out just as = if you were going to fly? Good Luck Mike,=20 Let me know if you think of something I can do to help. Dave On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 7:57 PM, Mike Wills wrote: Without knowing details of Tracy's design, hard to say what the real = consequences of relocating the switches is. Tracy did explicitly state = in the manual I got with my EC2 that relocating the switches is an = acceptible option. In any case relocating the switches should not result = in any sort of a "ground loop". Nothing much to report today. On my first start today the engine = quit when I switched to the B controller. I had to do a A > B copy to = get the engine to run on B. Test ran for another 1.5 hours or so with = multiple starts, toggling back and forth between A and B, but could not = force it to fail again. Which is kinda disappointing. But thats the = nature of an intermittant, isnt it? About the only thing I can report is that the engine runs richer = throughout the RPM range on B than it does on A. A is setup so that its = at stoich with the mixture knob at 12:00. On B the mixture knob needs to = be at 9:00 for the same indication on the mixture gauge.=20 Mike Wills RV-4 N144MW ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Whaley" = =20 To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 10:07 AM=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: frustrating couple of days I believe the ground for the controller unit is made through the = DB15 wire harness to the EC2; by moving the A/B switch you will have = lengthened this ground loop ... maybe try a wire from Controller PCB = common to ground of remote A/B switch. Is it possible for you to put the A/B switch back to original = position? Jeff -----Original Message----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf Of Ed Anderson Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 12:53 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: frustrating couple of days Mike, per discussion about possible de-bouncing problem. Might try = sticking a 0.01 ufd capacitor from your Controller Switch to Ground - just to eliminate debouncing as the potential problem. Ed Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com http://www.andersonee.com http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html http://www.flyrotary.com/ http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm -----Original Message----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf Of Mike Wills Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 12:09 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: frustrating couple of days Minor correction. Its not that I'm only seeing a problem with the B controller. Its that it appears that the problem occurs when I = switch to B, but in the 2 cases where the staging point was corrupted, the = corrupt data was on the A controller. I've been all through the power and ground system. Multiple times. = When I first noted the problem and emailed Tracy about it he suspected = ground noise. After describing my electrical system to him he made two = suggestions: 1) I implemented a single point ground even though I have a metal = airframe. I wanted to avoid ground currents getting into the radio and = intercom. Due to CG issues my batteries ended up in the baggage compartment so the = ground connection from the batteries to the single point ground ended up = being about 8' of #0 cable. Tracy recommended eliminating this cable and = tying the battery ground terminals to chassis ground as close as possible to = the batteries. I've done this. 2) My ignition coils were also connected to the single point ground = through about 3' of #14 wire. Tracy indicated that the coils are the = greatest potential noise makers on the airplane and recommended grounding = this to the airframe or engine block as close as possible to the coils. I've = done this. I've reviewed all of my wiring to make sure that things that should = be shielded are and to be sure that noisy wires are seperated from = sensitive ones. There were no obvious problems found in my original install in = this regard, but I did move a couple of wires to gain even more = seperation. So as I said, I believe the power and ground system in the airplane = are sound. I doubt that remoting the A/B switch, or something wrong with = the switch itself, is what is causing this, but I do believe that = something is going on in the act of switching from A to B that is causing the = problem. I'll try to force it in my testing today. Mike Wills RV-4 N144MW ----- Original Message ----- From: "thomas walter" = To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 7:26 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: frustrating couple of days Ed, Odd electrical trivia. Older eeproms were rated at 3.3V, so below = 2.7V they ignored any read or write information. We had a uC that would start "jabbering" on the data and clock lines = when power was caming up. Since reset occurred once power was good, it = was never an issue. Problem is the eeprom manufactures started = shipping parts that were functional from 1.8V to 3.3V. So once power was at 1.7V, = it accepted writes, corrupting the eeprom. Just to drive the engineers = crazy only some lots and some devices 'jibbered' away. Yes, amazing I = still have any hair left. :) That is pretty rare, but has happened. Yes, Mike -- Interesting you're only seeing an issue with the "B" controller. Still triple check the power, grounds, and rest of the connections. Since the fuel map is stored in non-volute memory, it's hard to = figure out how it is being re-written or destroyed. Normally (as you know) = access to EEPROM on a chip is a rather non-trivial process. Since the A and = B controller are two different chips, I suppose there could be a = problem with the B chip - but, while that does happen, it's pretty rare. = Have not had one myself (yet). -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus = signature database 3267 (20080714) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus = signature database 3267 (20080714) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html --=20 David Leonard Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net http://RotaryRoster.net ------=_NextPart_000_003B_01C9FBBB.4E649300 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dave,
 
Thanks for the offer and the input. = Swapping my EC=20 into your plane would be a desperation last move due to all of the = hassles=20 involved. And as you say would not necessarily prove = anything.
 
I said it happens when I'm preparing to = fly, but=20 that isnt entirely accurate. It would be more accurate to say that in = the past=20 it has happened only when I have switched to the back-up = controller=20 which usually occurs in prep for flight. This past weekend I had = fired it=20 up and taxied down to EAA for lunch. After lunch I taxied back to my = hangar and=20 prior to shutting down I ran the engine up to about 3000 RPM and = switched to the=20 B controller. The engine died and I had to copy the A program to B to = get it to=20 run on B. Switching to B was the only pre takeoff checklist item I=20 performed.
 
I think about the only thing you hit on = here that=20 might be related is heat. But hard to say without more instances of = failure and=20 a way to link cause and effect. On saturday when the engine quit on = B the=20 engine was completely cowled. On sunday when I had the second instance = of an=20 engine quitting on B, the upper cowl was off but the lower was = on. When the=20 staging point was lost the upper was off, lower on. Yesterday when the = engine=20 quit on the first attempt at switching to B the engine was completely = uncowled.=20 Maybe I'll run it up a few more times today uncowled and if it works OK, = try=20 putting the cowl back on and see if I can induce failure. Doesnt seem = likely=20 though that anything under cowl could cause this sort of = problem.
 
This may all have to wait until Tracy = weighs in=20 with his opinion. I'm not inclined to make drastic changes until I hear = from=20 him.
 
Thanks,
 
Mike 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 David=20 Leonard
Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 = 9:28=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = frustrating=20 couple of days

Bummer that it is not more consistent....  that really makes = it=20 hard!.
 
I would like to help.  If youj want, someday I can fly down = and we=20 can put your EC2 in my plane and see if we can reporduce the issue. = (I'm not=20 so keen about putting mine in your plane I have to admit.) =20 Unfortunately, sounds like even if we can't get the issue to occur in = my=20 plane, we still haveent proved anything because it is so=20 intermittent....
 
You mention it happens more when you are prepairing to = fly..  maybe=20 it is something else that you do when you are about to fly besides = just=20 switching and checking the B controller.  Turning on=20 Strobes? checking injectors? checking lead/trail sparks? checking = backup=20 fuel pump? Some GPS or other avionics?  Fuel tank selection? = canopy=20 closed switch?  Some particular engine paramiter?  Using the = brakes?  Temperature change by being in the sun?  Cowl in=20 place?  Using the Nav/Comm?  Headset plugged in?  = Something=20 else?  A combination of 2 or more of those above (eg, plugging in = headset, transmitting on comm, and switching to B for example?)  = Can you=20 make it occur more reliably if you taxi out just as if you were going = to=20 fly?
 
Good Luck Mike,
Let me know if you think of something I can do to help.
 
Dave

On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 7:57 PM, Mike Wills = <rv-4mike@cox.net>=20 wrote:
Without=20 knowing details of Tracy's design, hard to say what the real = consequences of=20 relocating the switches is. Tracy did explicitly state in the manual = I got=20 with my EC2 that relocating the switches is an acceptible option. In = any=20 case relocating the switches should not result in any sort of a = "ground=20 loop".

Nothing much to report today. On my first start today = the=20 engine quit when I switched to the B controller. I had to do a A = > B copy=20 to get the engine to run on B. Test ran for another 1.5 hours or so = with=20 multiple starts, toggling back and forth between A and B, but could = not=20 force it to fail again. Which is kinda disappointing. But thats the = nature=20 of an intermittant, isnt it?

About the only thing I can = report is=20 that the engine runs richer throughout the RPM range on B than it = does on A.=20 A is setup so that its at stoich with the mixture knob at 12:00. On = B the=20 mixture knob needs to be at 9:00 for the same indication on the = mixture=20 gauge.=20


Mike Wills
RV-4 N144MW

----- = Original=20 Message ----- From: "Jeff Whaley" <jwhaley@datacast.com>=20

To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: = Thursday,=20 July 02, 2009 10:07 AM=20

Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: frustrating couple of=20 days


I believe the ground for the controller unit is made = through=20 the DB15 wire harness to the EC2; by moving the A/B switch you will = have=20 lengthened this ground loop ... maybe try a wire from Controller PCB = common=20 to ground of remote A/B switch.
Is it possible for you to put the = A/B=20 switch back to original position?
Jeff

-----Original=20 Message-----
From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Ed=20 Anderson
Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 12:53 PM
To: Rotary = motors in=20 aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: frustrating couple of = days

Mike,=20 per discussion about possible de-bouncing problem.  Might try=20 sticking
a 0.01 ufd capacitor from your Controller Switch to = Ground -=20 just to
eliminate debouncing as the potential=20 problem.

Ed

Ed Anderson

Rv-6A N494BW Rotary=20 Powered

Matthews, NC

eanderson@carolina.rr.com

http://www.andersonee.com

http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html

http://www.flyrotary.com/

http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW=

http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm

-----Original=20 Message-----
From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On
Behalf Of = Mike=20 Wills
Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 12:09 PM
To: Rotary motors = in=20 aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: frustrating couple of = days

Minor=20 correction. Its not that I'm only seeing a problem with the = B
controller.=20 Its that it appears that the problem occurs when I switch to = B,
but in=20 the 2 cases where the staging point was corrupted, the corrupt = data
was=20 on the A controller.

I've been all through the power and = ground=20 system. Multiple times. When I
first noted the problem and = emailed Tracy=20 about it he suspected ground
noise. After describing my = electrical system=20 to him he made two suggestions:
1)  I implemented a single = point=20 ground even though I have a metal airframe.

I wanted to avoid = ground=20 currents getting into the radio and intercom. Due
to CG issues my = batteries ended up in the baggage compartment so the = ground
connection=20 from the batteries to the single point ground ended up = being
about 8' of=20 #0 cable. Tracy recommended eliminating this cable and tying=20 the

battery ground terminals to chassis ground as close as = possible=20 to the
batteries. I've done this.
2) My ignition coils were = also=20 connected to the single point ground through
about 3' of #14 = wire. Tracy=20 indicated that the coils are the greatest
potential noise makers = on the=20 airplane and recommended grounding this to the

airframe or = engine=20 block as close as possible to the coils. I've done this.
I've = reviewed=20 all of my wiring to make sure that things that should be
shielded = are and=20 to be sure that noisy wires are seperated from sensitive
ones. = There were=20 no obvious problems found in my original install in this
regard, = but I=20 did move a couple of wires to gain even more seperation.

So = as I=20 said, I believe the power and ground system in the airplane = are
sound. I=20 doubt that remoting the A/B switch, or something wrong with = the
switch=20 itself, is what is causing this, but I do believe that something = is
going=20 on in the act of switching from A to B that is causing the = problem.
I'll=20 try to force it in my testing today.

Mike Wills
RV-4=20 N144MW

----- Original Message ----- From: "thomas walter" = <roundrocktom@yahoo.com>
To: "Rotary motors = in=20 aircraft" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: = Thursday, July=20 02, 2009 7:26 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: frustrating couple of=20 days



Ed,

Odd electrical trivia.   Older = eeproms=20 were rated at 3.3V, so below 2.7V
they ignored any read or write=20 information.

We had a uC that would start "jabbering" on the = data and=20 clock lines when
power was caming up.   Since reset occurred = once=20 power was good, it was
never an issue.   Problem is the = eeprom=20 manufactures started shipping parts
that were functional from = 1.8V to=20 3.3V.  So once power was at 1.7V, it
accepted writes, = corrupting the=20 eeprom. Just to drive the engineers crazy
only some lots and some = devices=20 'jibbered' away.   Yes, amazing I still have

any hair = left.=20 :)

That is pretty rare, but has happened.

Yes, Mike -- = Interesting you're only seeing an issue with the "B"
controller. = Still=20 triple check the power, grounds, and rest of = the
connections.

Since=20 the fuel map is stored in non-volute memory, it's hard to figure=20 out

how=20 it is being re-written or destroyed. Normally (as you know) access = to
EEPROM on a chip is a rather non-trivial process. Since the = A and=20 B
controller are two different chips, I suppose there could be = a=20 problem
with the B chip - but, while that does happen, it's = pretty=20 rare. Have not
had one myself=20 (yet).





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Homepage:=20  http://www.flyrotary.com/
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__________ = Information=20 from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
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The message was checked by ESET NOD32=20 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com



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--
David Leonard

Turbo Rotary RV-6 = N4VY
http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.nethttp://RotaryRoster.net
------=_NextPart_000_003B_01C9FBBB.4E649300--