X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from fmailhost01.isp.att.net ([207.115.11.51] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.14) with ESMTP id 3743497 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 03 Jul 2009 00:56:29 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=207.115.11.51; envelope-from=bobperk9@bellsouth.net DKIM-Signature: v=1; q=dns/txt; d=bellsouth.net; s=dkim01; i=bobperk9@bellsouth.net; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; t=1246596989; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:In-Reply-To:Message-Id: Date:Subject:To:From; bh=sBtidUtfaqPPz/tzVh2uiOVQ3HzSXROz5EbtXKQGBK Q=; b=lXp8ZMHN7/KDHqB0cN+K49mJQ/C2h5AD7uGT/STmRfj9GSwWpzODgEOWMwNg3 +LykrGh6+r2NtXcbcNQ0cKTAw== Received: from fwebmail17.isp.att.net ([204.127.221.117]) by isp.att.net (frfwmhc01) with SMTP id <20090703045553H0100c672ae>; Fri, 3 Jul 2009 04:55:54 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [204.127.221.117] Received: from [74.249.212.236] by fwebmail17.isp.att.net; Fri, 03 Jul 2009 04:55:53 +0000 From: "Bob Perkinson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Fire Shield or Heat Sheild [FlyRotary] Re: P M Alternator Project Date: Fri, 03 Jul 2009 04:55:53 +0000 Message-Id: <070320090455.21028.4A4D8F58000CBD0D0000522422228869349B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBFC7059D0A9F0D010D@att.net> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: AT&T Message Center Version 1 (Mar 2 2009) X-Authenticated-Sender: Ym9icGVyazlAYmVsbHNvdXRoLm5ldA== MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_21028_1246596953_0" --NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_21028_1246596953_0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I bought a roll of ceramic insulation that was 4ft by 25ft manufactured by= GE I got it dirt cheep from one of TVA's mothballed nuclear plants, payed = $6 bucks for it. I don't know if it is the same stuff that is on FlyBoy's = web site. This insulation is about 3/16 of an inch thick and heavy as lead= . A piece as big as the firewall would weight about 8 to 10 lb. Only on= e side is Aluminum foil covered. I used a propane torch to test it, the al= uminum facing will melt and the ceramic swells and becomes friable, but sta= y's cold. Ed is probibly right in that it would start flaking off with the= airflow. I didn't really have a use for the stuff so I traded all but a piece the si= ze of my ferewall for enough stainless steal tube and J's to build my exhau= st. I figured $6 for $100 worth of tube was a good deal. Bob P. -------------- Original message from "Ed Anderson" : -------------- Hi Todd, =20 Certainly the horror of in-flightfire is something aviators have faced sin= ce WWI. I commend you on youreffort to minimize any FWF combustion event (= other than inside theengine). However, I must tell you I have some doubts = about the protectionyou may think you are getting. This comes across to me= more of a heatshield kit than a fire shield kit. Here are some of my reas= ons for whyI believe you may not be getting the protection you think: =20 Whilethe ceramic blanket would probably withstand up to approx 2000F, I dou= btseriously it would remain on the firewall for long in case of such a horr= idevent as fire. The aluminum facing and aluminum foil tape would quickly = succumbto flames leaving the airflow to blow the ceramic material away from= thefirewall. I would feel much better if the facing was stainless steel a= swell as the tape holding it together. I know you can get stainless steelt= ape, but not certain about ceramic blanket faced with stainless.=20=20 =20 Now, Ido believe that material can probably delay the worst and perhaps buy= you someadditional time =E2=80=93 and it may be well worth it from that st= and point =E2=80=932-3 minutes might make a difference. But, just felt I n= eeded to point outthat this =E2=80=9Cprotection=E2=80=9D may not be what yo= u think. =20 BestRegards =20 Ed =20 =20 =20 Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com http://www.andersonee.com http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html http://www.flyrotary.com/ http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm From: Rotary motors in aircraft[mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] OnBehal= f Of Todd Bartrim Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 5:27PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: P MAlternator Project =20 Hi Kelly; I've finished the first phase of getting the darned thing inthere. Seco= nd phase will be actually running it to test it. I haven't yetbought a volt= age regulator or even given any thought as to tying it into theelectrical s= ystem, though I don't expect any problems here. I just finishedwriting a fu= ll report on how to do this installation, just need to proof readit and exp= ort it into a PDF or something small enough to post. It's currentlyin .odt = and 24Mb. Maybe I'll see if I can just put it on the Rotary Wiki. Youcan pr= obably expect it late tonight (pacific time). Second phase will likely be late summer or early fall, asI'm about to c= ompletely remove the entire FWF in order to install a ceramicblanket heat s= hield in one piece. Some of you may remember the Von Alexanderstory about a= n RV8 pilot that jumped to his death in order to avoid flames inthe cockpit= . Well my boy wants to go flying real bad, but that's something Ialways thi= nk about. So while it's not something I plan to happen, It's one morebase I= 'd like to cover as best I can. I wish I'd done something like this whilebu= ilding initially, but there wasn't much available back then. A builder by the name of Vince Frazier has started FlyBoy accessories andof= fers a firewall insulation kit that is ideal and affordable. Ironically,Vin= ce bought his initial tool set from Von Alexander's widow. So I've orderedt= his kit http://www.flyboyaccessories.com/store/index.php?main_page=3Dproduc= t_info&cPath=3D1&products_id=3D204 I will completely strip the firewall in order to install it in one piece wi= thas few penetrations as possible. While it's off I plan to change some things on my cooling system, based on = someof the recent successes I've seen here on the list in the last few year= s sinceI first completed my plane (it's never really completed). But even t= heseprojects will be delayed by other non-aircraft projects that I have to = getdone. Todd C-FSTB RV9 13B On Thu, 2009-07-02 at 17:52 +0000, KellyTroyer wrote:=20 =20 Todd,=20 Just How is Your PM Alternator Project going??.......We are all hopeful= that it will lessen a possible alternatorfail point by virtue of being dir= ect drive and eliminating the drivebelt......=20 =20=20 -- Kelly Troyer=20 "Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine=20 "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=20 "Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=20 __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signatur= edatabase 3267 (20080714) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com --NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_21028_1246596953_0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_21028_1246596953_1" --NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_21028_1246596953_1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=20 I bought a roll of ceramic insulation that was 4ft by 25ft manufactured by = GE I got it dirt cheep from one of TVA's mothballed nuclear plants, payed $= 6 bucks for it.  I don't know if it is the same stuff that is on FlyBo= y's web site.  This insulation is about 3/16 of an inch thick and heav= y as lead.  A piece as big as the firewall would weight about 8 to 10 = lb.    Only one side is Aluminum foil covered.  I used = a propane torch to test it, the aluminum facing will melt and the ceramic s= wells and becomes friable, but stay's cold.  Ed is probibly right in t= hat it would start flaking off with the airflow.
I didn't really have a = use for the stuff so I traded all but a piece the size of my ferewall for e= nough stainless steal tube and J's to build my exhaust.  I figured $6 = for $100 worth of tube was a good deal.

Bob P.

-------------- Original message from "Ed Anderson" <eanderson@carolina.= rr.com>: --------------

Hi Todd,<= /o:p>

 

Certainly the = horror  of in-flight fire is something aviators have faced since WWI.  I commend you on you= r effort to minimize any FWF combustion event (other than inside the engine).  However, I must tell you I have some doubts about the protec= tion you may think you are getting.  This comes across to me more of a heat shield kit than a fire shield kit.  Here are some of my reasons for &n= bsp;why I believe you may not be getting the protection you think:

 

While the ceramic blanket would probably withstand up to approx 2000F, I doubt seriously it would remain on the firewall for long in case of such a horrid event as fire.  The aluminum facing and aluminum foil tape would quick= ly succumb to flames leaving the airflow to blow the ceramic material away from the firewall.  I would feel much better if the facing was stainless steel = as well as the tape holding it together.  I know you can get stainless st= eel tape, but not certain about ceramic blanket faced with stainless. 

 

Now, I do believe that material can probably delay the worst and perhaps buy you s= ome additional time =E2=80=93 and it may be well worth it from that stand point= =E2=80=932- 3 minutes might make a difference.  But, just felt I needed to point o= ut that this =E2=80=9Cprotection=E2=80=9D may not be what you think.

 

Best Regards

 

Ed

 

 

 

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf Of Todd Bartrim
Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2= 009 5:27 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: P= M Alternator Project

 

Hi Kell= y;
    I've finished the first phase of getting the darned thin= g in there. Second phase will be actually running it to test it. I haven't yet bought a voltage regulator or even given any thought as to tying it into th= e electrical system, though I don't expect any problems here. I just finished writing a full report on how to do this installation, just need to proof re= ad it and export it into a PDF or something small enough to post. It's current= ly in .odt and 24Mb. Maybe I'll see if I can just put it on the Rotary Wiki. Y= ou can probably expect it late tonight (pacific time).
    Second phase will likely be late summer or early fall, a= s I'm about to completely remove the entire FWF in order to install a ceramic blanket heat shield in one piece. Some of you may remember the Von Alexande= r story about an RV8 pilot that jumped to his death in order to avoid flames = in the cockpit. Well my boy wants to go flying real bad, but that's something = I always think about. So while it's not something I plan to happen, It's one = more base I'd like to cover as best I can. I wish I'd done something like this w= hile building initially, but there wasn't much available back then.
A builder by the name of Vince Frazier has started FlyBoy accessories and offers a firewall insulation kit that is ideal and affordable. Ironically, Vince bought his initial tool set from Von Alexander's widow. So I've order= ed this kit http://www.flyboyac= cessories.com/store/index.php?main_page=3Dproduct_info&cPath=3D1&pr= oducts_id=3D204
I will completely strip the firewall in order to install it in one piece wi= th as few penetrations as possible.
While it's off I plan to change some things on my cooling system, based on = some of the recent successes I've seen here on the list in the last few years si= nce I first completed my plane (it's never really completed). But even these projects will be delayed by other non-aircraft projects that I have to get done.

Todd
C-FSTB
RV9 13B

On Thu, 2009-07-02 at 17:52 +0000, Kelly Troyer wrote:

 

Todd,

    Just How is Your PM Alternat= or Project going ??.......We are all hopeful that it will lessen a possible altern= ator fail point by virtue of being direct drive and eliminating the drive belt......

 

--
Kelly Troyer
"Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold




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