X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail-vw0-f181.google.com ([209.85.212.181] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.14) with ESMTP id 3743480 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 03 Jul 2009 00:29:31 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.212.181; envelope-from=wdleonard@gmail.com Received: by vwj11 with SMTP id 11so1252562vwj.7 for ; Thu, 02 Jul 2009 21:28:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=AtnZNg80Dl1ddxN7PGCNMmi2kZQHEWDnl71gCw8q2dk=; b=Km83H7g8VNgeF/q1491M3IaGVreHPZYkmlGqgCC88KbMsdONlGM9dOIBr06dhuA0zn J6sksuyKz3NFhO9Pw1jyVP3wr3Cvf7/ExiB9Hd42tRUbGUdMYVna9hiUa503zNPVDg2e CtqhON0877HOak5cRRpiGxSGnuOXzzpd16SxM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=Pg1a3JKunGHf3uVYs79jF8KINK+DF+EvyZUx01twVdcKQlGMF/MI++SZcL7TCdmTgH xhuH6D0BK4HuQ35Wxro8gmM5+nUBed8XENmCnLkbz0s1gb3Ksr2wjLuGjzmOhOSvVdx0 T4P7+aAi0IMd7+AKj3zqLnSUa5LkLnPoAcM+U= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.75.9 with SMTP id w9mr1697001vcj.82.1246595335258; Thu, 02 Jul 2009 21:28:55 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 21:28:55 -0700 Message-ID: <1c23473f0907022128i17d66eccld82205c382bd0716@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: frustrating couple of days From: David Leonard To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e6475f722306e5046dc59879 --0016e6475f722306e5046dc59879 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bummer that it is not more consistent.... that really makes it hard!. I would like to help. If youj want, someday I can fly down and we can put your EC2 in my plane and see if we can reporduce the issue. (I'm not so keen about putting mine in your plane I have to admit.) Unfortunately, sounds like even if we can't get the issue to occur in my plane, we still haveent proved anything because it is so intermittent.... You mention it happens more when you are prepairing to fly.. maybe it is something else that you do when you are about to fly besides just switching and checking the B controller. Turning on Strobes? checking injectors? checking lead/trail sparks? checking backup fuel pump? Some GPS or other avionics? Fuel tank selection? canopy closed switch? Some particular engine paramiter? Using the brakes? Temperature change by being in the sun? Cowl in place? Using the Nav/Comm? Headset plugged in? Something else? A combination of 2 or more of those above (eg, plugging in headset, transmitting on comm, and switching to B for example?) Can you make it occur more reliably if you taxi out just as if you were going to fly? Good Luck Mike, Let me know if you think of something I can do to help. Dave On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 7:57 PM, Mike Wills wrote: > Without knowing details of Tracy's design, hard to say what the real > consequences of relocating the switches is. Tracy did explicitly state in > the manual I got with my EC2 that relocating the switches is an acceptible > option. In any case relocating the switches should not result in any sort of > a "ground loop". > > Nothing much to report today. On my first start today the engine quit when > I switched to the B controller. I had to do a A > B copy to get the engine > to run on B. Test ran for another 1.5 hours or so with multiple starts, > toggling back and forth between A and B, but could not force it to fail > again. Which is kinda disappointing. But thats the nature of an > intermittant, isnt it? > > About the only thing I can report is that the engine runs richer throughout > the RPM range on B than it does on A. A is setup so that its at stoich with > the mixture knob at 12:00. On B the mixture knob needs to be at 9:00 for the > same indication on the mixture gauge. > > Mike Wills > RV-4 N144MW > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Whaley" > To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" > Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 10:07 AM > > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: frustrating couple of days > > > I believe the ground for the controller unit is made through the DB15 wire > harness to the EC2; by moving the A/B switch you will have lengthened this > ground loop ... maybe try a wire from Controller PCB common to ground of > remote A/B switch. > Is it possible for you to put the A/B switch back to original position? > Jeff > > -----Original Message----- > From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On > Behalf Of Ed Anderson > Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 12:53 PM > To: Rotary motors in aircraft > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: frustrating couple of days > > Mike, per discussion about possible de-bouncing problem. Might try > sticking > a 0.01 ufd capacitor from your Controller Switch to Ground - just to > eliminate debouncing as the potential problem. > > Ed > > Ed Anderson > > Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered > > Matthews, NC > > eanderson@carolina.rr.com > > http://www.andersonee.com > > http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html > > http://www.flyrotary.com/ > > http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW > > http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On > Behalf Of Mike Wills > Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 12:09 PM > To: Rotary motors in aircraft > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: frustrating couple of days > > Minor correction. Its not that I'm only seeing a problem with the B > controller. Its that it appears that the problem occurs when I switch to B, > but in the 2 cases where the staging point was corrupted, the corrupt data > was on the A controller. > > I've been all through the power and ground system. Multiple times. When I > first noted the problem and emailed Tracy about it he suspected ground > noise. After describing my electrical system to him he made two > suggestions: > 1) I implemented a single point ground even though I have a metal > airframe. > > I wanted to avoid ground currents getting into the radio and intercom. Due > to CG issues my batteries ended up in the baggage compartment so the ground > connection from the batteries to the single point ground ended up being > about 8' of #0 cable. Tracy recommended eliminating this cable and tying > the > > battery ground terminals to chassis ground as close as possible to the > batteries. I've done this. > 2) My ignition coils were also connected to the single point ground through > about 3' of #14 wire. Tracy indicated that the coils are the greatest > potential noise makers on the airplane and recommended grounding this to > the > > airframe or engine block as close as possible to the coils. I've done this. > I've reviewed all of my wiring to make sure that things that should be > shielded are and to be sure that noisy wires are seperated from sensitive > ones. There were no obvious problems found in my original install in this > regard, but I did move a couple of wires to gain even more seperation. > > So as I said, I believe the power and ground system in the airplane are > sound. I doubt that remoting the A/B switch, or something wrong with the > switch itself, is what is causing this, but I do believe that something is > going on in the act of switching from A to B that is causing the problem. > I'll try to force it in my testing today. > > Mike Wills > RV-4 N144MW > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "thomas walter" > > To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" > Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 7:26 AM > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: frustrating couple of days > > > > Ed, > > Odd electrical trivia. Older eeproms were rated at 3.3V, so below 2.7V > they ignored any read or write information. > > We had a uC that would start "jabbering" on the data and clock lines when > power was caming up. Since reset occurred once power was good, it was > never an issue. Problem is the eeprom manufactures started shipping parts > that were functional from 1.8V to 3.3V. So once power was at 1.7V, it > accepted writes, corrupting the eeprom. Just to drive the engineers crazy > only some lots and some devices 'jibbered' away. Yes, amazing I still > have > > any hair left. :) > > That is pretty rare, but has happened. > > Yes, Mike -- Interesting you're only seeing an issue with the "B" > controller. Still triple check the power, grounds, and rest of the > connections. > > Since the fuel map is stored in non-volute memory, it's hard to figure out >> > > how it is being re-written or destroyed. Normally (as you know) access to >> EEPROM on a chip is a rather non-trivial process. Since the A and B >> controller are two different chips, I suppose there could be a problem >> with the B chip - but, while that does happen, it's pretty rare. Have not >> had one myself (yet). >> > > > > > > -- > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > Archive and UnSub: > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html > > > > -- > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > Archive and UnSub: > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus > signature > database 3267 (20080714) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus > signature > database 3267 (20080714) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > > > > -- > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > Archive and UnSub: > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html > > > -- > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > Archive and UnSub: > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html > > > > -- > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > Archive and UnSub: > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html > -- David Leonard Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net http://RotaryRoster.net --0016e6475f722306e5046dc59879 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Bummer that it is not more consistent....=A0 that really makes it hard= !.
=A0
I would like to help.=A0 If youj want, someday I can fly down and we c= an put your EC2 in my plane and see if we can reporduce the issue. (I'm= not so keen about putting mine in your plane I have to admit.)=A0 Unfortun= ately, sounds like even if we can't get the issue to occur in my plane,= we still haveent proved anything because it is so intermittent....
=A0
You mention it happens more when you are prepairing to fly..=A0 maybe = it is something else that you do when you are about to fly besides just swi= tching and checking the B controller.=A0 Turning on Strobes?=A0checking inj= ectors? checking lead/trail sparks? checking backup fuel pump? Some GPS or = other avionics?=A0 Fuel tank selection? canopy closed switch?=A0 Some parti= cular engine paramiter?=A0 Using the brakes?=A0 Temperature change by being= in the sun?=A0 Cowl in place?=A0 Using the Nav/Comm?=A0 Headset plugged in= ?=A0 Something else?=A0 A combination of 2 or more of those above (eg, plug= ging in headset, transmitting on comm, and switching to B for example?)=A0 = Can you make it occur more reliably if you taxi out just as if you were goi= ng to fly?
=A0
Good Luck Mike,
Let me know if you think of something I can do to help.
=A0
Dave

On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 7:57 PM, Mike Wills <rv-4mike@cox.net&g= t; wrote:
Without knowing details of Tracy= 's design, hard to say what the real consequences of relocating the swi= tches is. Tracy did explicitly state in the manual I got with my EC2 that r= elocating the switches is an acceptible option. In any case relocating the = switches should not result in any sort of a "ground loop".

Nothing much to report today. On my first start today the engine quit w= hen I switched to the B controller. I had to do a A > B copy to get the = engine to run on B. Test ran for another 1.5 hours or so with multiple star= ts, toggling back and forth between A and B, but could not force it to fail= again. Which is kinda disappointing. But thats the nature of an intermitta= nt, isnt it?

About the only thing I can report is that the engine runs richer throug= hout the RPM range on B than it does on A. A is setup so that its at stoich= with the mixture knob at 12:00. On B the mixture knob needs to be at 9:00 = for the same indication on the mixture gauge.=20


Mike Wills
RV-4 N144MW

----- Orig= inal Message ----- From: "Jeff Whaley" <jwhaley@datacast.com>=20

To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" <flyrotary@lancair= online.net>
Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 10:07 AM=20

Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: frustrating couple of days

I believe the ground for the controller unit is made through the = DB15 wire harness to the EC2; by moving the A/B switch you will have length= ened this ground loop ... maybe try a wire from Controller PCB common to gr= ound of remote A/B switch.
Is it possible for you to put the A/B switch back to original position?
= Jeff

-----Original Message-----
From: Rotary motors in aircraft [= mailto:fly= rotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Ed Anderson
Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 12:53 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
= Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: frustrating couple of days

Mike, per discus= sion about possible de-bouncing problem. =A0Might try sticking
a 0.01 uf= d capacitor from your Controller Switch to Ground - just to
eliminate debouncing as the potential problem.

Ed

Ed Anderson=

Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered

Matthews, NC

eanderson@carolina.rr.co= m

http://www.and= ersonee.com

http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html

http://www.flyrotary.com/=

http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW<= /a>

http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm

-----Original Message-----
From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mail= to:flyrota= ry@lancaironline.net] On
Behalf Of Mike Wills
Sent: Thursday, Jul= y 02, 2009 12:09 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: frustrating coupl= e of days

Minor correction. Its not that I'm only seeing a probl= em with the B
controller. Its that it appears that the problem occurs wh= en I switch to B,
but in the 2 cases where the staging point was corrupted, the corrupt data<= br>was on the A controller.

I've been all through the power and = ground system. Multiple times. When I
first noted the problem and emaile= d Tracy about it he suspected ground
noise. After describing my electrical system to him he made two suggestions= :
1) =A0I implemented a single point ground even though I have a metal a= irframe.

I wanted to avoid ground currents getting into the radio an= d intercom. Due
to CG issues my batteries ended up in the baggage compartment so the ground=
connection from the batteries to the single point ground ended up being=
about 8' of #0 cable. Tracy recommended eliminating this cable and = tying the

battery ground terminals to chassis ground as close as possible to the<= br>batteries. I've done this.
2) My ignition coils were also connect= ed to the single point ground through
about 3' of #14 wire. Tracy in= dicated that the coils are the greatest
potential noise makers on the airplane and recommended grounding this to th= e

airframe or engine block as close as possible to the coils. I'= ve done this.
I've reviewed all of my wiring to make sure that thing= s that should be
shielded are and to be sure that noisy wires are seperated from sensitiveones. There were no obvious problems found in my original install in this=
regard, but I did move a couple of wires to gain even more seperation.<= br>
So as I said, I believe the power and ground system in the airplane are=
sound. I doubt that remoting the A/B switch, or something wrong with th= e
switch itself, is what is causing this, but I do believe that somethin= g is
going on in the act of switching from A to B that is causing the problem.I'll try to force it in my testing today.

Mike Wills
RV-4 N= 144MW

----- Original Message ----- From: "thomas walter" &= lt;roundrocktom= @yahoo.com>
To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
= Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 7:26 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: frustrati= ng couple of days



Ed,

Odd electrical trivia. =A0 Older eeproms were rated = at 3.3V, so below 2.7V
they ignored any read or write information.
We had a uC that would start "jabbering" on the data and clock = lines when
power was caming up. =A0 Since reset occurred once power was good, it wasnever an issue. =A0 Problem is the eeprom manufactures started shipping p= arts
that were functional from 1.8V to 3.3V. =A0So once power was at 1.7= V, it
accepted writes, corrupting the eeprom. Just to drive the engineers crazyonly some lots and some devices 'jibbered' away. =A0 Yes, amazing= I still have

any hair left. :)

That is pretty rare, but has = happened.

Yes, Mike -- Interesting you're only seeing an issue with the "= ;B"
controller. Still triple check the power, grounds, and rest of = the
connections.

Since the fuel map is stored in = non-volute memory, it's hard to figure out

how it is being re-written or de= stroyed. Normally (as you know) access to
EEPROM on a chip is a rather n= on-trivial process. Since the A and B
controller are two different chips, I suppose there could be a problem
w= ith the B chip - but, while that does happen, it's pretty rare. Have no= t
had one myself (yet).





--
Homepa= ge: =A0http://www.f= lyrotary.com/
Archive and UnSub:
http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/= flyrotary/List.html



--
Homepage: =A0http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and UnSub:
http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/= flyrotary/List.html

__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antiv= irus, version of virus signature
database 3267 (20080714) __________

The message was checked by ESET = NOD32 Antivirus.

= http://www.eset.com



__________ Information from ESET NOD= 32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
database 3267 (20080714) __________

The message was checked by ESET = NOD32 Antivirus.

= http://www.eset.com



--
Homepage: =A0http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/fly= rotary/List.html


--
Homepage: =A0http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/fly= rotary/List.html



--
Homepage: =A0http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and UnSub: =A0 http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists= /flyrotary/List.html



--
David Leonard

Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net
http://RotaryRoster.net
--0016e6475f722306e5046dc59879--