X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from willowsprings.uwyo.edu ([129.72.10.31] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.14) with ESMTPS id 3742668 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 02 Jul 2009 11:04:18 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=129.72.10.31; envelope-from=SBoese@uwyo.edu Received: from ponyexpress-ht2.uwyo.edu (ponyexpress-ht2.uwyo.edu [10.84.60.209]) by willowsprings.uwyo.edu (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n62F1fsS020827 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL) for ; Thu, 2 Jul 2009 09:03:33 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from SBoese@uwyo.edu) Received: from Boesexps (172.26.4.5) by uwmail.uwyo.edu (10.84.60.199) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 8.1.375.2; Thu, 2 Jul 2009 09:02:39 -0600 From: sboese To: "'Rotary motors in aircraft'" Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Narrowing in on Cause? [FlyRotary] Re: frustrating couple of days Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 09:01:45 -0600 Message-ID: <06F8E936B679433DABEC4DEA377A2FAA@gg.uwyo.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0031_01C9FAF3.B9C9D920" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 In-Reply-To: ------=_NextPart_000_0031_01C9FAF3.B9C9D920 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ed and Mike, =20 Tracy would be the one to comment on this, if he was available, but it = is my understanding that both the A and B controllers are running all the = time. The A/B switch operates a relay that just changes which controller's = outputs are connected to the rest of the plane. When the injector relay changes contacts there is the possibility for arcing between the contacts = depending on whether or not the injectors were turned on at that time. Tracy said once that he had trouble with corruption of the controllers probably due = to this arcing and that was the reason for the transient suppression diodes = in the injector driver circuitry. Changing to the snubber circuitry, = possibly increased the chance for the arcing problem but helped with injector response time. A compromise like everything else. Moving the A/B = switch shouldn't cause a problem unless this has changed the relay response = time and caused an arcing problem. I don't know if the PCM has any circuitry involved with this other than the switch itself. If it does, it's not obvious. Is there any chance that any of Mike's injectors are drawing = more current than intended? Wiring for saturated when one or more of them = is peak and hold or otherwise damaged? That could cause arcing and = corruption problems. =20 =20 How's that for speculation? =20 Steve Boese =20 =20 -----Original Message----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Ed Anderson Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 5:18 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Narrowing in on Cause? [FlyRotary] Re: frustrating couple of days =20 I think you may be narrowing in on the cause of your problem, Mike. =20 Remoting the cold start and/or controller selection switch might have unintended effects. IF this were the cause, my bet would be on the controller select switch. I don't know what all that switch does - but = it clearly transfers control of the ignition and injectors to the B = controller (when so switched). So several High Power circuits are being turned on = (or switched over) to the B controller by a switch that is no longer = co-located on the program Controller PCB. Again, IF this remoting of the switches could cause this, the question is HOW? =20 Not certain of what de-bounce routine Tracy uses - whether software or hardware - but if you turned on the switch to B controller, I would = presume the B controller immediately loads the MAP into its working memory. I = would assume the Map (as well as other data such as staging) would normally reside in EEPROM and upon activation one of the first things the B controller would do is to load this MAP and data. Now, lets say a = second voltage spike from the un-debounced switch were sent to the B controller during the time it was loading the fuel Map, it could cause the chip to = do a reset during this interval. That could result in part of the MAP or = other data stored in EEPROM getting corrupted. I don't know the internal = coding for moving data from EEPROM to working memory inside the EC2, I do know that for the Serial data its code is in MIDI format.=20 =20 Using the MIDI format means if only one bit is corrupted out of the 256 bytes used to transmit the Map over the serial link - then all data = after that point is corrupted. That is one of the reasons I had to give the = Rs232 USART comm. Module in my EFISM chip top priority during interrupts. I = can lose any number of injector pulses and it not affect its accuracy enough = to display - but corruption of the most significant bit of the High byte = MIDI pair during the MAP serial transmission and the remaining bytes are hopelessly corrupted. =20 =20 I was pretty confident the problem was not caused by the EFISM as it = has no way to talk to the B controller, but glad to have it confirmed. The = only way I can see the EFISM affecting the B controller is rather round = about. You would have to 1st make the change to the A MAP using the EFISM and = then use the EC2 to copy the A MAP to the B MAP. Even then you can not = change the staging point using the EFISM only the Map and ignition. =20 A second thought is whether any "ground currents" could be in play. You have probably already done this, but try connecting an alligator clamp = (or your favorite attachment device) to the ground of your controller switch = and hook the other end to the grounding stud on the EC2. If a ground = circuit current/voltage was playing a role this might eliminate it. =20 Good luck on your trouble shooting. Don't give up - I think you may be = on the right track. Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com http://www.andersonee.com http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html http://www.flyrotary.com/ http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm =20 _____ =20 From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Mike Wills Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 12:37 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: frustrating couple of days =20 So I vented to you guys, lost some sleep last night pondering this, = wasted more time today thinking about it, and then went back to the airport to check things out. =20 I had previously made all of the changes Tracy recommended in case there = was an issue with ground or supply noise. I didnt believe that was the = problem before, but with no better ideas went ahead and made the changes. I'm = now pretty sure that the electrical system is solid. =20 Another possibility was that there was something about the EFISM installation that caused this problem. Not sure how this could be the = case but the EFISM does have the capability to write to the MCT, so maybe something was getting scrambled in the process? =20 I disconnected the EFISM. And the EFISM was disconnected yesterday when = this latest problem occured, so its not the cause. Yesterday just before I = quit in disgust I reconnected the EFISM and captured the MCT to make sure it hadnt been corrupted. It looked fine and thats why it was so puzzling. =20 Today when I started the engine it was clearly still screwed up. I put = the EFISM in EC2 monitor mode and immediately saw the problem. This latest problem was due to the fact that my A controller injector staging point = had been corrupted and set to 12" MAP. The engine sure wont idle on 4 = injectors! I reset the staging point to where it belongs and the engine is back to running as it should. =20 I now have 5 known episodes of spontaneous changes to the EC2 (possibly more). The first time the staging point was erased and the secondaries wouldnt come on. The next 3 cases (twice in the past couple of days) the = B controller lost its program (since I dont have a way to view the B MCT I dont actually know whats happening here, just that the engine = immediately dies when I flip to B). And then this last episode with the staging = point resetting to 12". I say there may have actually been more cases because = my engine has never really ran well on the B controller after doing an A to = B copy. But it does run - usually. =20 So Ed asks is there an action or sequence of actions that may be = related? Well the common thread here is switching to B. I ran this engine for = about 20 hours of ground testing before I noted the first instance of this occuring. And this coincides with when I started actually flying the airplane - and routinely switching to B as part of my pre takeoff = checklist. Then I stopped flying about 4 months ago to make all of these changes = and further tune the engine. During this time I dont think I ever switched = to B and noted no problems. This past weekend I started prepping to fly and = went through my typical pre takeoff prep and once again problems. Started troubleshooting by routinely checking the B controller and once again corrupted the EC2, this time the staging point. =20 Since my most consistent indicator of a change is corruption of the B = MCT its hard to say for sure, but if i can force the staging point screw up = a few times by switching to B I'll be convinced. I should note that my = install is not standard for the EC2 PCM. I removed the A/B switch, Cold Start switch, and Coil Test switch from the PCM and remoted them to my = instrument panel. Tracy noted this as an optional way to do things in my EC2 = manual. I dont recall how Tracy implements these switches, but I assume they are = SPST to a pullup resistor on the EC2. I dont know if he has any circuitry to de-bounce or noise filter the switch input? I dont even know for sure = that this is the cause but seems to be the most reasonable explanation at = this point. Stay tuned. =20 Mike Wills RV-4 N144MW ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Ed Anderson=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2009 6:15 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: frustrating couple of days =20 Mike, its got to be frustrating to have it run well for a couple of = months and just when you have convinced yourself the problem is gone, it comes back. =20 I presume there is nothing (no action, sequence of actions) that you can think of having taken recently - any different than you have done during = the months the engine ran well that you can think of. Nothing different = perhaps in getting ready for another flight? =20 Since the fuel map is stored in non-volute memory, it's hard to figure = out how it is being re-written or destroyed. Normally (as you know) access = to EEPROM on a chip is a rather non-trivial process. Since the A and B controller are two different chips, I suppose there could be a problem = with the B chip - but, while that does happen, it's pretty rare. Have not = had one myself (yet). =20 You are able to copy over the A MAP to the B MAP and it apparently does = the copy, but then something causes it to be re-written with garbage. You = do not have Auto tune and I presume you do not attempt to change the B MAP = - but it changes on its own. It sounds as it the changes to B happen = whether you have selected B controller or not - is that correct. Or does it = only happen when you are using the B controller or can you tell. =20 =20 Ed =20 Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com http://www.andersonee.com http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html http://www.flyrotary.com/ http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm =20 _____ =20 From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Mike Wills Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2009 12:10 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] frustrating couple of days =20 I havent flown my RV since a couple of cases of lost data in the EC2 = back in february. Spent the last few months making a bunch of mods, some = suggested by Tracy, others were things that I thought might increase long term reliability. Also had to fix leaking fuel tanks in the ensuing period. =20 Been working up toward renewing flight testing. Engine has been running really well for the last few months. Thought that the problem was cured, though not clear how. Then on saturday found that once again my B = controller had lost all data. Engine wouldnt run at any throttle setting on B. = Restored the B controller by copying A > B. =20 Last night after work ground ran the engine for about 30 minutes at = various throttle settings and it ran as good as always. Also ran fine on the B controller. =20 Tonight after work I fired it up. Ran fine initially. After about 15 = minutes noted some minor surging at a couple of throttle settings below 2000 = RPM. Also noticed that in this RPM range where the mixture had previously = been fine, my mixture monitor is off the scale lean. Slowly got worse, to the point that it wouldnt idle at what was previously a solid 1350RPM. = Couldnt get it to run at all below 1500, everything between 1500 and about 3000 = RPM pretty rough. Everything over 3000 is fine. No idea what caused this = change. I put the airplane away and walked away in disgust. I'm back to where I = was a year ago and I'm just about fed up with this thing. =20 Mike Wills RV-4 N144MW __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus = signature database 3267 (20080714) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus = signature database 3267 (20080714) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com ------=_NextPart_000_0031_01C9FAF3.B9C9D920 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Ed and Mike,

 

Tracy would be the one to comment = on this, if he was available, but it is my understanding that both the A and B controllers are running all the time.  The A/B switch operates a = relay that just changes which controller’s outputs are connected to the = rest of the plane.  When the injector relay changes contacts there is the possibility for arcing between the contacts depending on whether or not = the injectors were turned on at that time.  Tracy said once that he had trouble with corruption of the controllers probably due to this arcing = and that was the reason for the transient suppression diodes in the injector = driver circuitry.  Changing to the snubber circuitry, possibly increased = the chance for the arcing problem but helped with injector response time.  A compromise like everything else.  Moving the A/B switch = shouldn’t cause a problem unless this has changed the relay response time and = caused an arcing problem.  I don’t know if the PCM has any circuitry = involved with this other than the switch itself.  If it does, it’s not obvious.  Is there any chance that any of Mike’s injectors = are drawing more current than intended?   Wiring for saturated = when one or more of them is peak and hold or otherwise damaged?  That could = cause arcing and corruption problems. 

 

How’s that for = speculation?

 

Steve Boese  =

 

-----Original = Message-----
From: Rotary motors in = aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Ed Anderson
Sent: Thursday, July 02, = 2009 5:18 AM
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] = Narrowing in on Cause? [FlyRotary] Re: frustrating couple of days

 

I think you may = be narrowing in on the cause of your problem, Mike.

 

Remoting the = cold start and/or controller selection switch might have unintended effects. IF = this were the cause, my bet would be on the controller select switch.  I = don’t know what all that switch does – but it clearly transfers control = of the ignition and injectors to the B controller (when so switched).  So = several High Power circuits are being turned on (or switched over) to the B = controller by a switch that is no longer co-located on the program Controller = PCB.  Again, IF this remoting of the switches could cause this, the question = is HOW?

 

Not certain of = what de-bounce routine Tracy uses – whether software or hardware = – but if you turned on the switch to B controller, I would presume the B = controller immediately loads the MAP into its working memory.  I would assume = the Map (as well as other data such as staging)  would normally reside in = EEPROM and upon activation one of the first things the B controller would do is = to load this MAP and data.  Now, lets say a second voltage spike from the un-debounced switch were sent to the B controller during the time it was loading the fuel Map, it could cause the chip to do a reset during this interval.  That could result in part of the MAP or other data = stored in EEPROM getting corrupted. I don’t know the internal coding for = moving data from EEPROM to working memory inside the EC2,  I do know that = for the Serial data its code is in MIDI format.

 

Using the MIDI = format means if only one bit is corrupted out of the 256 bytes used to transmit = the Map over the serial link – then all data after that point is corrupted.  That is one of the reasons I had to give the Rs232 = USART comm. Module in my EFISM chip top priority during interrupts.  I can lose = any number of injector pulses and it not affect its accuracy enough to display = – but corruption of the most significant bit of the High byte MIDI pair during = the MAP serial transmission and the remaining bytes are hopelessly = corrupted. 

 

 I was = pretty confident the problem was not caused by the EFISM as it has no way to = talk to the B controller, but glad to have it confirmed.  The only way I = can see the EFISM affecting the B controller is rather round about.   = You would have to 1st make the change to the A MAP using the = EFISM and then use the EC2 to copy the A MAP to the B MAP.  Even then you can = not change the staging point using the EFISM only the Map and = ignition.

 

A second thought = is whether any “ground currents” could be in play.  You = have probably already done this, but try connecting an alligator clamp (or = your favorite attachment device) to the ground of your controller switch and = hook the other end to the grounding stud on the EC2.  If a ground = circuit current/voltage was playing a role this might eliminate = it.

 

Good luck on = your trouble shooting.  Don’t give up – I think you may be on the = right track.

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Mike Wills
Sent: Thursday, July 02, = 2009 12:37 AM
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: frustrating couple of days

 

So I vented to you guys, = lost some sleep last night pondering this, wasted more time today thinking about = it, and then went back to the airport to check things out.

 

I had previously made all = of the changes Tracy recommended in case there was an issue with ground or = supply noise. I didnt believe that was the problem before, but with no better = ideas went ahead and made the changes. I'm now pretty sure that the electrical = system is solid.

 

Another possibility was = that there was something about the EFISM installation that caused this problem. Not = sure how this could be the case but the EFISM does have the capability to = write to the MCT, so maybe something was getting scrambled in the = process?

 

I disconnected the EFISM. = And the EFISM was disconnected yesterday when this latest problem occured, so = its not the cause. Yesterday just before I quit in disgust I reconnected the = EFISM and captured the MCT to make sure it hadnt been corrupted. It looked fine = and thats why it was so puzzling.

 

Today when I started the = engine it was clearly still screwed up. I put the EFISM in EC2 monitor mode and immediately saw the problem. This latest problem was due to the fact = that my A controller injector staging point had been corrupted and set to 12" = MAP. The engine sure wont idle on 4 injectors! I reset the staging point to = where it belongs and the engine is back to running as it = should.

 

I now have 5 known episodes = of spontaneous changes to the EC2 (possibly more). The first time the = staging point was erased and the secondaries wouldnt come on. The next 3 cases = (twice in the past couple of days) the B controller lost its program (since I = dont have a way to view the B MCT I dont actually know whats happening here, = just that the engine immediately dies when I flip to B). And then this last = episode with the staging point resetting to 12". I say there may have = actually been more cases because my engine has never really ran well on the B = controller after doing an A to B copy. But it does run - usually.

 

So Ed asks is there an = action or sequence of actions that may be related? Well the common thread here is switching to B. I ran this engine for about 20 hours of ground testing = before I noted the first instance of this occuring. And this coincides with when = I started actually flying the airplane - and routinely switching to B as = part of my pre takeoff checklist. Then I stopped flying about 4 months ago to = make all of these changes and further tune the engine. During this time I dont = think I ever switched to B and noted no problems. This past weekend I started = prepping to fly and went through my typical pre takeoff prep and once again = problems. Started troubleshooting by routinely checking the B controller and once = again corrupted the EC2, this time the staging point.

 

Since my most consistent = indicator of a change is corruption of the B MCT its hard to say for sure, but if = i can force the staging point screw up a few times by switching to B I'll be convinced. I should note that my install is not standard for the EC2 = PCM. I removed the A/B switch, Cold Start switch, and Coil Test switch from the PCM and remoted them to my instrument panel. Tracy noted this as an optional way = to do things in my EC2 manual. I dont recall how Tracy implements these = switches, but I assume they are SPST to a pullup resistor on the EC2. I dont know if = he has any circuitry to de-bounce or noise filter the switch input? I dont even = know for sure that this is the cause but seems to be the most reasonable = explanation at this point. Stay tuned.

 

Mike = Wills

RV-4 = N144MW

----- Original Message = -----

From: Ed Anderson

Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2009 6:15 AM

Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: frustrating couple of days

 

Mike, its got to = be frustrating to have it run well for a couple of months and just when you = have convinced  yourself the problem is gone, it comes = back.

 

I presume there = is nothing (no action, sequence of actions) that you can think of having = taken recently - any different than you have done during the months the engine = ran well that you can think of.  Nothing different perhaps in getting = ready for another flight?

 

Since the fuel = map is stored in non-volute memory, it’s hard to figure out how it is = being re-written or destroyed.  Normally (as you know) access to EEPROM = on a chip is a rather non-trivial process.   Since the A and B = controller are two different chips, I suppose there could be a problem with the B = chip – but, while that does happen, it’s pretty rare.  Have = not had one myself (yet).

 

You are able to = copy over the A MAP to the B MAP and it apparently does the copy, but then = something causes it to be re-written with garbage.  You do not have Auto tune = and I presume you do not attempt to change the B MAP – but it changes on = its own.  It sounds as it the changes to B happen whether you have = selected B controller or not – is that correct.  Or does it only happen = when you are using the B controller or can you tell.

 

 

Ed<= /p>

 

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Mike Wills
Sent: Wednesday, July 01, = 2009 12:10 AM
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] = frustrating couple of days

 

I havent flown my RV since = a couple of cases of lost data in the EC2 back in february. Spent the last few = months making a bunch of mods, some suggested by Tracy, others were things that = I thought might increase long term reliability. Also had to fix leaking = fuel tanks in the ensuing period.

 

Been working up toward = renewing flight testing. Engine has been running really well for the last few = months. Thought that the problem was cured, though not clear how. Then on = saturday found that once again my B controller had lost all data. Engine wouldnt = run at any throttle setting on B. Restored the B controller by copying A > = B.

 

Last night after work = ground ran the engine for about 30 minutes at various throttle settings and it ran as = good as always. Also ran fine on the B controller.

 

Tonight after work I fired = it up. Ran fine initially. After about 15 minutes noted some minor surging at a = couple of throttle settings below 2000 RPM. Also noticed that in this RPM range = where the mixture had previously been fine, my mixture monitor is off the = scale lean. Slowly got worse, to the point that it wouldnt idle at what = was previously a solid 1350RPM. Couldnt get it to run at all below 1500, = everything between 1500 and about 3000 RPM pretty rough. Everything over 3000 is = fine. No idea what caused this change. I put the airplane away and walked away in disgust. I'm back to where I was a year ago and I'm just about fed up = with this thing.

 

Mike = Wills

RV-4 = N144MW



__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus = signature database 3267 (20080714) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com



__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus = signature database 3267 (20080714) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com

------=_NextPart_000_0031_01C9FAF3.B9C9D920--