X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from fed1rmmtao101.cox.net ([68.230.241.45] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.14) with ESMTP id 3742291 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 02 Jul 2009 00:37:39 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=68.230.241.45; envelope-from=rv-4mike@cox.net Received: from fed1rmimpo01.cox.net ([70.169.32.71]) by fed1rmmtao101.cox.net (InterMail vM.7.08.02.01 201-2186-121-102-20070209) with ESMTP id <20090702043702.QJQW17670.fed1rmmtao101.cox.net@fed1rmimpo01.cox.net> for ; Thu, 2 Jul 2009 00:37:02 -0400 Received: from wills ([68.105.87.229]) by fed1rmimpo01.cox.net with bizsmtp id Ascz1c00C4wtUdQ03sd14G; Thu, 02 Jul 2009 00:37:02 -0400 X-VR-Score: -30.00 X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.0 c=1 a=JqIssJquC0YA:10 a=ayC55rCoAAAA:8 a=arxwEM4EAAAA:8 a=QdXCYpuVAAAA:8 a=7g1VtSJxAAAA:8 a=kviXuzpPAAAA:8 a=UretUmmEAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=nUuTZ29dAAAA:8 a=Ye-azHIJZh3Z--kmdzsA:9 a=uO-DkDVoe5eGFBvTnrcA:7 a=sJ6z8QmSShklsZ7R-WD-3GrPz-8A:4 a=EzXvWhQp4_cA:10 a=SSmOFEACAAAA:8 a=_9X06eRdPEWDuQiwhtEA:9 a=H3nXuKE3nldxFP_g5OQA:7 a=AaOsWJL2zn8icz5YmfR0P6K15pAA:4 X-CM-Score: 0.00 Message-ID: From: "Mike Wills" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: frustrating couple of days Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 21:37:00 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0076_01C9FA94.1103B810" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0076_01C9FA94.1103B810 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable So I vented to you guys, lost some sleep last night pondering this, = wasted more time today thinking about it, and then went back to the = airport to check things out. I had previously made all of the changes Tracy recommended in case there = was an issue with ground or supply noise. I didnt believe that was the = problem before, but with no better ideas went ahead and made the = changes. I'm now pretty sure that the electrical system is solid. Another possibility was that there was something about the EFISM = installation that caused this problem. Not sure how this could be the = case but the EFISM does have the capability to write to the MCT, so = maybe something was getting scrambled in the process? I disconnected the EFISM. And the EFISM was disconnected yesterday when = this latest problem occured, so its not the cause. Yesterday just before = I quit in disgust I reconnected the EFISM and captured the MCT to make = sure it hadnt been corrupted. It looked fine and thats why it was so = puzzling. Today when I started the engine it was clearly still screwed up. I put = the EFISM in EC2 monitor mode and immediately saw the problem. This = latest problem was due to the fact that my A controller injector staging = point had been corrupted and set to 12" MAP. The engine sure wont idle = on 4 injectors! I reset the staging point to where it belongs and the = engine is back to running as it should. I now have 5 known episodes of spontaneous changes to the EC2 (possibly = more). The first time the staging point was erased and the secondaries = wouldnt come on. The next 3 cases (twice in the past couple of days) the = B controller lost its program (since I dont have a way to view the B MCT = I dont actually know whats happening here, just that the engine = immediately dies when I flip to B). And then this last episode with the = staging point resetting to 12". I say there may have actually been more = cases because my engine has never really ran well on the B controller = after doing an A to B copy. But it does run - usually. So Ed asks is there an action or sequence of actions that may be = related? Well the common thread here is switching to B. I ran this = engine for about 20 hours of ground testing before I noted the first = instance of this occuring. And this coincides with when I started = actually flying the airplane - and routinely switching to B as part of = my pre takeoff checklist. Then I stopped flying about 4 months ago to = make all of these changes and further tune the engine. During this time = I dont think I ever switched to B and noted no problems. This past = weekend I started prepping to fly and went through my typical pre = takeoff prep and once again problems. Started troubleshooting by = routinely checking the B controller and once again corrupted the EC2, = this time the staging point. Since my most consistent indicator of a change is corruption of the B = MCT its hard to say for sure, but if i can force the staging point screw = up a few times by switching to B I'll be convinced. I should note that = my install is not standard for the EC2 PCM. I removed the A/B switch, = Cold Start switch, and Coil Test switch from the PCM and remoted them to = my instrument panel. Tracy noted this as an optional way to do things in = my EC2 manual. I dont recall how Tracy implements these switches, but I = assume they are SPST to a pullup resistor on the EC2. I dont know if he = has any circuitry to de-bounce or noise filter the switch input? I dont = even know for sure that this is the cause but seems to be the most = reasonable explanation at this point. Stay tuned. Mike Wills RV-4 N144MW ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Ed Anderson=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2009 6:15 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: frustrating couple of days Mike, its got to be frustrating to have it run well for a couple of = months and just when you have convinced yourself the problem is gone, = it comes back. =20 I presume there is nothing (no action, sequence of actions) that you = can think of having taken recently - any different than you have done = during the months the engine ran well that you can think of. Nothing = different perhaps in getting ready for another flight? =20 Since the fuel map is stored in non-volute memory, it's hard to figure = out how it is being re-written or destroyed. Normally (as you know) = access to EEPROM on a chip is a rather non-trivial process. Since the = A and B controller are two different chips, I suppose there could be a = problem with the B chip - but, while that does happen, it's pretty rare. = Have not had one myself (yet). =20 You are able to copy over the A MAP to the B MAP and it apparently = does the copy, but then something causes it to be re-written with = garbage. You do not have Auto tune and I presume you do not attempt to = change the B MAP - but it changes on its own. It sounds as it the = changes to B happen whether you have selected B controller or not - is = that correct. Or does it only happen when you are using the B = controller or can you tell. =20 =20 Ed =20 Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com http://www.andersonee.com http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html http://www.flyrotary.com/ http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf Of Mike Wills Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2009 12:10 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] frustrating couple of days =20 I havent flown my RV since a couple of cases of lost data in the EC2 = back in february. Spent the last few months making a bunch of mods, some = suggested by Tracy, others were things that I thought might increase = long term reliability. Also had to fix leaking fuel tanks in the ensuing = period. =20 Been working up toward renewing flight testing. Engine has been = running really well for the last few months. Thought that the problem = was cured, though not clear how. Then on saturday found that once again = my B controller had lost all data. Engine wouldnt run at any throttle = setting on B. Restored the B controller by copying A > B. =20 Last night after work ground ran the engine for about 30 minutes at = various throttle settings and it ran as good as always. Also ran fine on = the B controller. =20 Tonight after work I fired it up. Ran fine initially. After about 15 = minutes noted some minor surging at a couple of throttle settings below = 2000 RPM. Also noticed that in this RPM range where the mixture had = previously been fine, my mixture monitor is off the scale lean. Slowly = got worse, to the point that it wouldnt idle at what was previously a = solid 1350RPM. Couldnt get it to run at all below 1500, everything = between 1500 and about 3000 RPM pretty rough. Everything over 3000 is = fine. No idea what caused this change. I put the airplane away and = walked away in disgust. I'm back to where I was a year ago and I'm just = about fed up with this thing. =20 Mike Wills RV-4 N144MW __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus = signature database 3267 (20080714) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com ------=_NextPart_000_0076_01C9FA94.1103B810 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
So I vented to you guys, lost some = sleep last night=20 pondering this, wasted more time today thinking about it, and then went = back to=20 the airport to check things out.
 
I had previously made all of the = changes Tracy=20 recommended in case there was an issue with ground or supply noise. I = didnt=20 believe that was the problem before, but with no better ideas went ahead = and=20 made the changes. I'm now pretty sure that the electrical system is=20 solid.
 
Another possibility was that there was = something=20 about the EFISM installation that caused this problem. Not sure how this = could=20 be the case but the EFISM does have the capability to write to the MCT, = so maybe=20 something was getting scrambled in the process?
 
I disconnected the EFISM. And the EFISM = was=20 disconnected yesterday when this latest problem occured, so its not the = cause.=20 Yesterday just before I quit in disgust I reconnected the EFISM and = captured the=20 MCT to make sure it hadnt been corrupted. It looked fine and thats why = it was so=20 puzzling.
 
Today when I started the engine it was = clearly=20 still screwed up. I put the EFISM in EC2 monitor mode and immediately = saw the=20 problem. This latest problem was due to the fact that my A controller = injector=20 staging point had been corrupted and set to 12" MAP. The engine sure = wont idle=20 on 4 injectors! I reset the staging point to where it belongs and the = engine is=20 back to running as it should.
 
I now have 5 known episodes of = spontaneous changes=20 to the EC2 (possibly more). The first time the staging point was erased = and the=20 secondaries wouldnt come on. The next 3 cases (twice in the past couple = of days)=20 the B controller lost its program (since I dont have a way to view the B = MCT I=20 dont actually know whats happening here, just that the engine = immediately dies=20 when I flip to B). And then this last episode with the staging point = resetting=20 to 12". I say there may have actually been more cases because my engine = has=20 never really ran well on the B controller after doing an A to B copy. = But it=20 does run - usually.
 
So Ed asks is there an action or = sequence of=20 actions that may be related? Well the common thread here is switching to = B. I=20 ran this engine for about 20 hours of ground testing before I noted the = first=20 instance of this occuring. And this coincides with when I started = actually=20 flying the airplane - and routinely switching to B as part of my pre = takeoff=20 checklist. Then I stopped flying about 4 months ago to make all of these = changes=20 and further tune the engine. During this time I dont think I ever = switched to B=20 and noted no problems. This past weekend I started prepping to fly and = went=20 through my typical pre takeoff prep and once again problems. Started=20 troubleshooting by routinely checking the B controller and once again = corrupted=20 the EC2, this time the staging point.
 
Since my most consistent indicator of a = change is=20 corruption of the B MCT its hard to say for sure, but if i can force the = staging=20 point screw up a few times by switching to B I'll be convinced. I should = note=20 that my install is not standard for the EC2 PCM. I removed the A/B = switch, Cold=20 Start switch, and Coil Test switch from the PCM and remoted them to my=20 instrument panel. Tracy noted this as an optional way to do things in my = EC2=20 manual. I dont recall how Tracy implements these switches, but I assume = they are=20 SPST to a pullup resistor on the EC2. I dont know if he has any = circuitry to=20 de-bounce or noise filter the switch input? I dont even know for sure = that this=20 is the cause but seems to be the most reasonable explanation at this = point. Stay=20 tuned.
 
Mike Wills
RV-4 N144MW
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Ed=20 Anderson
Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2009 = 6:15=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = frustrating=20 couple of days

Mike, its = got to be=20 frustrating to have it run well for a couple of months and just when = you have=20 convinced  yourself the problem is gone, it comes=20 back.

 

I presume = there is=20 nothing (no action, sequence of actions) that you can think of having = taken=20 recently - any different than you have done during the months the = engine ran=20 well that you can think of.  Nothing different perhaps in getting = ready=20 for another flight?

 

Since the = fuel map is=20 stored in non-volute memory, it=92s hard to figure out how it is being = re-written or destroyed.  Normally (as you know) access to EEPROM = on a=20 chip is a rather non-trivial process.   Since the A and B = controller=20 are two different chips, I suppose there could be a problem with the B = chip =96=20 but, while that does happen, it=92s pretty rare.  Have not had = one myself=20 (yet).

 

You are = able to copy=20 over the A MAP to the B MAP and it apparently does the copy, but then=20 something causes it to be re-written with garbage.  You do not = have Auto=20 tune and I presume you do not attempt to change the B MAP =96 but it = changes on=20 its own.  It sounds as it the changes to B happen whether you = have=20 selected B controller or not =96 is that correct.  Or does it = only happen=20 when you are using the B controller or can you=20 tell.

 

 

Ed

 

Ed=20 Anderson

Rv-6A = N494BW Rotary=20 Powered

Matthews,=20 NC

eanderson@carolina.rr.com

http://www.andersonee.com

http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html

http://www.flyrotary.com/

http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW

http://www.r= otaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm

From:=20 Rotary motors in aircraft = [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On=20 Behalf Of Mike Wills
Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2009 = 12:10=20 AM
To: = Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] = frustrating couple=20 of days

 

I havent flown my RV = since a=20 couple of cases of lost data in the EC2 back in february. Spent the = last few=20 months making a bunch of mods, some suggested by Tracy, = others were=20 things that I thought might increase long term reliability. Also had = to fix=20 leaking fuel tanks in the ensuing=20 period.

 

Been working up toward = renewing=20 flight testing. Engine has been running really well for the last few = months.=20 Thought that the problem was cured, though not clear how. Then on = saturday found that once again my B controller had lost all data. = Engine=20 wouldnt run at any throttle setting on B. Restored the B controller by = copying=20 A > B.

 

Last night after work = ground ran=20 the engine for about 30 minutes at various throttle settings and it = ran as=20 good as always. Also ran fine on the B=20 controller.

 

Tonight after work I = fired it up.=20 Ran fine initially. After about 15 minutes noted some minor surging at = a=20 couple of throttle settings below 2000 RPM. Also noticed that in this = RPM=20 range where the mixture had previously been fine, my mixture monitor = is off=20 the scale lean. Slowly got worse, to the point that it wouldnt = idle at=20 what was previously a solid 1350RPM. Couldnt get it to run at all = below 1500,=20 everything between 1500 and about 3000 RPM pretty rough. Everything = over 3000=20 is fine. No idea what caused this change. I put the airplane away and = walked=20 away in disgust. I'm back to where I was a year ago and I'm just about = fed up=20 with this thing.

 

Mike=20 Wills

RV-4=20 N144MW



__________ Information from ESET = NOD32=20 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3267 (20080714)=20 __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 = Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com

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