X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail-qy0-f204.google.com ([209.85.221.204] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.14) with ESMTP id 3682847 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 15 Jun 2009 10:27:58 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.221.204; envelope-from=rwstracy@gmail.com Received: by qyk42 with SMTP id 42so4694678qyk.7 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 2009 07:27:24 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=8SZKpDlVZEikwaIM7rHIgXrBuLT3W9gYulDwz/pMqRE=; b=nzIcMHsa0HB7cU1VgQDDOfER3yN2FQv7FtmJHhmU28cmfnT+KbEzhQnJ4epuaTTC1k LIVFgT6YAkfW2bMzNUZpTSy8n5s0qe8MhttqRq6Kw7y+OdR6iPvck3aIKZLiIFSnQOMN RsFfZV3wnRxIygx7AvzAz1rM0wTcPe64wXr8U= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; b=WpymsMiN9peKDFGu84zGDEEaC9CXcd2STl8tHr3ocoklO/6RtGZfrpwapIX1gvb54q kVhDJ0Lquqdw4+R8ry1vQYFfevmHGq5zAssaMBgblBWrJ1/SLXXl1nO2zCyAknKgTwxY mytD++uU8rEHQX/3JzxOZ7jKaIXje3WDeuZwE= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: rwstracy@gmail.com Received: by 10.224.19.200 with SMTP id c8mr7216373qab.195.1245076044094; Mon, 15 Jun 2009 07:27:24 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 10:27:24 -0400 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 515beaf27b74b1c3 Message-ID: <1b4b137c0906150727l2cf37716tb2d23c39cf515d2b@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Not developing full power. From: Tracy Crook To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0015175cb262539e13046c63db3a --0015175cb262539e13046c63db3a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit See comments below. Tracy On Sun, Jun 14, 2009 at 10:47 PM, Don Wallker wrote: > Now that I have the cooling problem well on the way to being solved. It's > time to ask you guys about not developing full power. The RV-8 flys > great,but is only producing what feels like 150 hp or so. At this point in > the engine development, I'm not feeling confidant enough to take it much > outside of the traffic pattern. Running strong as long as a don't take off > on B controller. I'm only getting 6400 RPM or so in flight That really is low if using C drive. What was airspeed? That affects things a lot. > and the throttle won't give any more power past the 2/3rds point. There must be something more restrictive than the TB in the intake tract. Or, the manifold design is bad (turbulent flow ?) > 66mm ford TB > I spent this morning running it on the ground and have some data that my > shed some light on the situation. > > R1 EGT R2 EGT prop RPM > manifold pressure EM-2 > Both inj on 1570 1589 5850 at midrange O2 > 25.0 > Both, rich 1710 1450 5890 > 27.8 > Sec only 1530 1570 5900 at midrange O2 > 26.5 Pri only 1606 1587 > 5443 at midrange O2 27.9 > Always report airport altitude when reporting MP. Otherwise we can't tell if this is normal or not. At sea level, these numbers would suck. The fact that WOT MPs are different suggests that your MP data is bogus. Is midrange O2 best power point? If so, the reading may not be normal for unknown reasons. Usually about 70 - 80 % is best power. Only odd reading was "Both Rich" numbers. I suspect this is not valid data since others were normal. What size secondary injectors are you using? Stock? > > The interesting thing is that I am getting about the same power using one > or the other set of injectors. Normal. What I am doing is tying off the plane to my truck, running it to full > throttle and then turning off one set of injectors and then the other and > recording the info. Could it be that I am flooding on rotor 2 with both > sets on? Don't see indication of this but then O2 reading may be suspect. > I'm not seeing it on the O2 mixture graph. I'm running with the cowl off > for better cooling and have temporarily added a radiator fan. This gives me > 2 or 3 mins more run time. It also cools things down faster for the next > run. Unfortunately, the manifold reading don't mean anything. The numbers > jump around on the EM-2 from 19 to28. I just took down the ones that seem > to be displayed the most. Hummm? Major instrumentation problem and must be fixed before making any hard conclusions. See Al's comments. Could be causing EC2 problems. > Engine running smooth. This jumping around has been like this from the > beginning. I have lines running to ports on the front of the manifold and > rear and have them teed together and then to the EC-2. Yes, the lines are > tight on the EC-2. My mechanical gauge is smooth. I doubt the pressure is > fluxuating. I think the signal is being distorted somewhere. Always use the PLENUM for MP tap unless there is a VERY good reason not to (like you haven't got one) > > Additionally, When I switch off one of the Injector banks, the RPM display > on the EM-2 goes to 0. Not NOP. This happen with both the Primary and > secondary injectors banks. If you switch off the primaries the reading will go to zero and FF also. These readings are sensed by the connection to the rotor 1 primary injector. This is normal. NOT normal if it happens on secondaries. > > I have always had a problem with Controlled B. It does not seem to copy > from A. I have tried this many times, with all other power in the plane > off. It is quite different running on B than A and I have to adjust the > mixture a lot as I advance the throttle. Possibilities include not really copying for some reason. (wiring, procedure, etc) Temp sensor on A not mounted or connected properly. B will always look a little different if the air conditions are not median (temp at 75 F). B has no temp or voltage compensation so it may require some adjustment to mixture control. Remember, B is just to get you home in case of controller A failure. Would it? > These engine running conditions are also happening when I turn everything > but the essential buss off. > I've tried some of the things you all have suggested. Disconnecting the > Hushpower 2. Louder but no real RPM diffferance. It's about the same > loudness as an unmuffled O-540. For those of you that don't know, I have a > tangential muffler in series and acting as a manifold. I even turboed it > this morning by attaching the shop blower to the intake to pressurize the > intake to make sure there is not an 'eddie' in the intake manifold that is > preventing air to flow to rotor 2. All I got was about 50 more RPM and the > same EGTs. Didn't record the manifold pressure. I've switched the > injectors, no difference. Some possible solutions would be to weld on a > bung to each rotor exhaust and add a switch to see where the individual > rotor are as far as O2 is concerned. Another solution is to swap out > someone else's EC-2 that is set up for Renesis and the small primary > injectors and the large secondary. Anybody? The fact that B controller > won't copy makes me think there may be a problem here. Another possible > solution it to rewire using Joe's suggestion from yesterday of using twisted > pairs, although if this is the problem, it is happening on the power wires > and not the signal ones. Another is to use Tracy's suggestion from his post > today to put the EM-2 and EC-2 on it's own breaker. My setup now as per > Tracy's original diagram, a non critical buss that has the EM-2, > instruments, radios, flaps,etc. on it and a critical buss with coils, > injectors, fuel pumps and EC-2 on it. I'm thinking there is one common > cause. Well, at least hoping! Could be but most cases I see are a variety of details. Tracy Crook > > Your thoughts, suggestions, admonitions > > Don Walker > N113BR > > > -- > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > Archive and UnSub: > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html > --0015175cb262539e13046c63db3a Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable See comments below.
Tracy

On Sun, Jun = 14, 2009 at 10:47 PM, Don Wallker <drwalker@gbis.com> wrote:
Now that I have the cooling problem well on the way to being solved. =A0It&= #39;s time to ask you guys about not developing full power. =A0The RV-8 fly= s great,but is only producing what feels like 150 hp or so. At this point i= n the engine development, I'm not feeling confidant enough to take it m= uch outside of the traffic pattern. =A0Running strong as long as a don'= t take off on B controller. =A0I'm only getting 6400 RPM or so in fligh= t

That really is low if using C drive.=A0 What was airspeed?=A0 That= affects things a lot.

=A0
and the throttle won't give any more power past the 2/3rds point.

There must be something more restrictive than the TB in the= intake tract.=A0 Or, the manifold design is bad (turbulent flow ?)
=A0<= /div>
=A066mm ford TB<= br> I spent this morning running it on the ground =A0and have some data that my= shed some light on the situation.

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0R1 EGT =A0 =A0 =A0 R2 EGT =A0 =A0 =A0 p= rop RPM =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 manifol= d pressure EM-2
Both =A0inj on =A0 =A0 =A01570 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 1589 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0= =A0 =A0 =A05850 =A0at midrange O2 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A025.0<= br> Both, rich =A0 =A0 =A0 =A01710 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A01450 =A0 =A0 =A0 = =A0 =A0 =A0 =A05890 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0= =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 27.8
Sec only =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A01530 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 1570 =A0 =A0 = =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A05900 at midrange O2 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 26.5= =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Pri only =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A01606 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 = =A0 =A0 1587 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 5443 at midrange O2 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 = =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 27.9

Always report airport altitude when reporting MP.=A0 = Otherwise we can't tell if this is normal or not.=A0 At sea level, thes= e numbers would suck.=A0=A0=A0 The fact that WOT MPs are different suggests= that your MP data is bogus.=A0 Is midrange O2 best power point?=A0 If so, = the reading may not be normal for unknown reasons.=A0 Usually about 70 - 80= % is best power.=A0 Only odd reading was "Both Rich" numbers.=A0= I suspect this is not valid data since others were normal.=A0

What size secondary injectors are you using?=A0 Stock?
=A0

The interesting thing is that I am getting about the same power using one o= r the other set of injectors.

Normal.

=A0What I am doing is tying off the plane to my truck, running it to full t= hrottle and then turning off one set of injectors and then the other and re= cording the info. =A0Could it be that I am flooding on rotor 2 with both se= ts on? =A0

Don't see indication of this but then O2 reading may be suspec= t.
=A0
I&= #39;m not seeing it on the O2 mixture graph. =A0I'm running with the co= wl off for better cooling and have temporarily added a radiator fan. =A0Thi= s gives me 2 or 3 mins more run time. =A0It also cools things down faster f= or the next run. =A0Unfortunately, the manifold reading don't mean anyt= hing. =A0The numbers jump around on the =A0EM-2 from 19 to28. =A0I just too= k down the ones that seem to be displayed the most. =A0Hummm?

Major instrumentation problem and must be fixed before making any = hard conclusions.=A0 See Al's comments.=A0 Could be causing EC2 problem= s.

=A0

Additionally, When I switch off one of the Injector banks, the RPM display = on the EM-2 goes to 0. =A0Not NOP. =A0This happen with both the Primary and= secondary injectors banks.

If you switch off the prim= aries the reading will go to zero and FF also. These readings are sensed by= the connection to the rotor 1 primary injector.=A0 This is normal.=A0 NOT = normal if it happens on secondaries.
=A0

I =A0have always had a problem with Controlled B. =A0It does not seem to co= py from A. =A0I have tried this many times, with all other power in the pla= ne off. =A0It is quite different running on B than A and I have to adjust t= he mixture a lot as I advance the throttle.

Possibilities include not really copying for some reason.=A0 (wiri= ng, procedure, etc)
Temp sensor on A not mounted or connected properly.= =A0 B will always look a little different if the air conditions are not med= ian=A0 (temp at 75 F).=A0 B has no temp or voltage compensation so it may r= equire some adjustment to mixture control.=A0 Remember, B is just to get yo= u home in case of controller A failure.=A0 Would it?

=A0
=A0T= hese engine running conditions are also happening when I turn everything bu= t the essential buss off.
I've tried some of the things you all have suggested. =A0Disconnecting = the Hushpower 2. =A0Louder but no real RPM diffferance. =A0It's about t= he same loudness as an unmuffled O-540. =A0For those of you that don't = know, =A0I have a tangential muffler in series and acting as a manifold. = =A0I even turboed it this morning by attaching the shop blower to the intak= e to pressurize the intake to make sure there is not an 'eddie' in = the intake manifold that is preventing air to flow to rotor 2. =A0All I got= was about 50 more RPM and the same EGTs. =A0Didn't record the manifold= pressure. =A0I've switched the injectors, =A0no difference. =A0Some po= ssible solutions would be to weld on a bung to each rotor exhaust and add a= switch =A0to see where the individual rotor are as far as O2 is concerned.= =A0 =A0Another solution is to =A0swap out someone else's EC-2 that is = set up for Renesis and the small primary injectors and the large secondary.= =A0Anybody? =A0The fact that B controller won't copy makes me think th= ere may be a problem here. =A0Another possible solution it to rewire using = Joe's suggestion from yesterday of using twisted pairs, although if thi= s is the problem, it is happening on the power wires and not the signal one= s. =A0Another is to use Tracy's suggestion from his post today to put t= he EM-2 and EC-2 on it's own breaker. =A0My setup now as per Tracy'= s original diagram, =A0a non critical buss that has the EM-2, instruments, = radios, flaps,etc. on it and a critical buss with coils, injectors, fuel pu= mps and EC-2 on it. =A0I'm thinking there is one common cause. =A0Well,= at least hoping!

Could be but most cases I see are a variety of details.=A0
Tracy Crook

=A0

Your thoughts, suggestions, admonitions

Don Walker
N113BR


--
Homepage: =A0http:/= /www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and UnSub: =A0 http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists= /flyrotary/List.html

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