X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com ([75.180.132.121] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.14) with ESMTP id 3681383 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 13 Jun 2009 08:04:32 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=75.180.132.121; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Received: from computername ([75.191.186.236]) by cdptpa-omta04.mail.rr.com with ESMTP id <20090613120352841.QBFX16114@cdptpa-omta04.mail.rr.com> for ; Sat, 13 Jun 2009 12:03:52 +0000 From: "Ed Anderson" To: "'Rotary motors in aircraft'" Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Re: Water temps Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 08:03:55 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0000_01C9EBFD.7FDFDAC0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 Thread-Index: Acnr0sNbiH/LLZkBT+aCnXlHa+o6NQAA27/Q In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Message-Id: <20090613120352841.QBFX16114@cdptpa-omta04.mail.rr.com> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C9EBFD.7FDFDAC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit George, traditionally, the temp measurements oft quoted - refer to Coolant Temps as it is coming out of the engine and oil temps as the oil is going into the engine after passing through the oil cooler. However, some folks have measure oil temps in the oil pan for example. I'm not certain why the two different references in Mazda shop manuals. I suspect oil temp coming in might be somewhat more critical since the oil cools the rotors buried deep inside the engine. So perhaps it had to be below some temp level to insure the delta T between oil and rotor were sufficient to move heat from the rotor to the oil - but, that is just speculation on my part. Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com http://www.andersonee.com http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html http://www.flyrotary.com/ http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm _____ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of George Lendich Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 10:57 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Water temps Lynn and Ed, What I would like to know is where is the best place to read those heats to stay within the parameters mentioned. Ideally one would look initially to water out of the engine and water going into the engine, the same with oil, which to me would give a better understand of the cooling capability. George (down under) The rotary is a sandwich of layers - end housing, rotor housing, center housing, rotor housing, end housing. Not only are these dissimilar shapes, they are also dissimilar metals and they have different thermal loads and cooling passages. The center housing for instance, has the least room of all the housings for coolant, yet has the greatest surface area exposed to combustion. (Lucky iron has half the coefficient of thermal expansion compared to aluminum, or maybe Mazda did that on purpose). On top of that, the combustion and exhaust half of the cycle put a lot more heat into the engine than the compression, and the intake actually cools it. When the engine heats up (or cools off) all these parts heat and expand at different rates. The water seals are sandwiched between these layers and somehow have to deal with this. The hotter the engine gets, the greater the effect. Those thin, fragile water seals get twisted and stretched, the damage is cumulative, and you can't see it until suddenly you need an engine rebuild. 235 is too hot. If your coolant temp got to 235, consider yourself fortunate you don't have to rebuild. A good temperature is 180-200, over 200 is pushing it. You can run a little hotter in a plane because it's a gentle, constant heat, not the abrupt sort of heat changes that kill car motors. But not 40 degrees hotter. I think rotary-engine plane builders are going through a lot of the same stuff the car tuners went through a decade or two ago. There are going to be a lot of guys with blown water seals in a couple years, if everyone is flying around with temps 210+ all the time. On Fri, Jun 12, 2009 at 7:09 AM, Ed Anderson wrote: Point taken, Lynn. I guess I was impressed John could run it for 55 minutes and only get 235F. If I run mine for over 2-3 minutes at WOT my temps would already be climbing over 200F. While not necessarily recommending it for others, my red line for oil is 200F (into block) and 220F coolant (out of block). I normally do not stay at these temps beyond 2-3 minutes during take off and initial climbout. Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com http://www.andersonee.com http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html http://www.flyrotary.com/ http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm _____ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Lynn Hanover Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 9:14 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Water temps Allow me to speculate: I suggest that watertemps above 210 are out of bounds. Thus it should be looked at as something you got away with, not a number to look for in normal operation. I would retorque the stack cold if I had seen those numbers. (235) Here is some dyno stuff for a 12A bridgeported engine with two 36MM chokes in a Weber carb. 6500 RPM (because there is no point in testing a racing engine below that), and even then it is to put up a starting point for a curve. Torque 139.6 foot pounds. HP 173.3 EGTs 1515 front 1491 rear BSFC .666 (the devils own) oil temp 162 (160 is ideal) Above 160 costs power due to rotor face temperatures. Oil pressure 99.9 (relief set at 110 pounds) Water temp is always 180 controlled by the cooling system on the dyno. Air/fuel 12.3 (slightly rich is fine as it helps cooling and sealing) I would expect to get as much as 10% more power from a 13B. Lynn E. Hanover Interesting questions: Is that data at full throttle? You can hold cruise RPM at an A/F of 15? Today I ran the engine .9 hour, .7th's static at 4700 rpm - 13B, Marcotte 2 - l redrive Water temp 235 OAT 61 Spring hasn't arrived above the 44th parallel oil temp 215 yet Exh. temp 1500 Prop speed 2350 MP 28 oil pres 75 air - fuel 15 to 1 fuel press 42 .2 hr high speed taxi Water temp 188 oil temp 160 Ex temp 1400 Prop speed 2500 MP 28 fuel press 42 The static engine run temperatures climbed quite a bit with the cowling on and working on the programming I didn't notice that this was happening, but they went right down when I idled back. I will have to pull the cowling in the morning and check the redrive, it appears the seal is leaking on the flywheel side. With no support from Marcotte, I may have too much 80w in the gearbox. I believe that the temperatures look good for flight. JohnD __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3267 (20080714) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C9EBFD.7FDFDAC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

George, traditionally, the temp measurements oft quoted - refer to Coolant Temps as it is coming out of = the engine and oil temps as the oil is going into the engine after passing = through the oil cooler.   However, some folks have measure oil temps = in the oil pan for example.

 

 I’m not certain why the = two different references in Mazda shop manuals.  I suspect oil temp = coming in might be somewhat more critical since the oil cools the rotors buried deep = inside the engine.  So perhaps it had to be below some temp  level to = insure the delta T between oil and rotor were sufficient to move heat from the rotor to the = oil – but, that is just speculation on my part.

 

From: = Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of George Lendich
Sent: Friday, June 12, = 2009 10:57 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Water temps

 

Lynn and Ed,

What I would like to know is where is the best = place to read those heats to stay within the parameters  = mentioned. 

 

Ideally one would look initially to water out of the = engine and water going into the engine, the same with oil, which to me would = give a better understand of the cooling = capability.

 

George (down under)

The rotary is = a sandwich of layers - end housing, rotor housing, center housing, rotor housing, = end housing.  Not only are these dissimilar shapes, they are also dissimilar metals = and they have different thermal loads and cooling passages.  The center = housing for instance, has the least room of all the housings for coolant, yet has = the greatest surface area exposed to combustion.  (Lucky iron has half = the coefficient of thermal expansion compared to aluminum, or maybe Mazda = did that on purpose).  On top of that, the combustion and exhaust half of = the cycle put a lot more heat into the engine than the compression, and the intake actually cools it. When the engine heats up (or cools off) all these = parts heat and expand at different rates.  The water seals are sandwiched = between these layers and somehow have to deal with this.  The hotter the = engine gets, the greater the effect.  Those thin, fragile water seals get = twisted and stretched, the damage is cumulative, and you can't see it until = suddenly you need an engine rebuild.

235 is too hot.  If your coolant temp got to 235, consider yourself fortunate you don't have to rebuild.  A good temperature is = 180-200, over 200 is pushing it.  You can run a little hotter in a plane because = it's a gentle, constant heat, not the abrupt sort of heat changes that kill car motors.  But not 40 degrees hotter.

I think rotary-engine plane builders are going through a lot of the same = stuff the car tuners went through a decade or two ago.  There are going = to be a lot of guys with blown water seals in a couple years, if everyone is = flying around with temps 210+ all the time.

On Fri, Jun 12, 2009 at 7:09 AM, Ed Anderson <eanderson@carolina.rr.com&g= t; wrote:

Point taken, Lynn.

 

I guess I was impressed John could run it for 55 = minutes and only get 235F.  If I run mine for over 2-3 minutes at WOT my temps = would already be climbing over 200F.  While not necessarily recommending = it for others, my red line for oil is 200F (into block) and 220F coolant (out = of block).  I normally do not stay at these temps beyond 2-3 minutes = during take off and initial climbout. 

 

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Lynn = Hanover
Sent: Friday, June 12, = 2009 9:14 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] = Water temps

 

Allow me to speculate:

I suggest that watertemps above 210 are out of bounds. Thus it should be = looked at as something you got away with, not a number to look for in normal operation. I would retorque the stack cold if I had seen those numbers. = (235)

Here is some dyno stuff for a 12A bridgeported engine with two 36MM chokes in = a Weber carb.

6500 RPM (because there is no point in testing a racing engine below that), = and even then it is to put up a starting point for a = curve.

Torque 139.6 foot pounds.

HP 173.3

EGTs 1515 front 1491 rear

BSFC .666 (the devils own)

oil temp 162 (160 is ideal) Above 160 costs power due to rotor face = temperatures.

Oil pressure 99.9 (relief set at 110 = pounds)

Water temp is always 180 controlled by the cooling system on the dyno. =

Air/fuel  12.3  (slightly rich is fine as it helps cooling and = sealing)

I would expect to get as much as 10% more power from a = 13B.

Lynn E. Hanover

Interesting questions: Is that data at full throttle?

You can hold cruise RPM at an A/F of 15?

 

 

Today I ran the engine .9 hour, .7th's static at 4700 rpm -  13B, = Marcotte 2 - l redrive

 

Water temp         235           &nbs= p;   OAT  = 61            Spring hasn't arrived above the 44th = parallel

oil temp           &nb= sp;  215           &nbs= p;            = ;            =     yet

Exh. temp         1500

Prop speed        = 2350

MP    &n= bsp;           &nb= sp;     28

oil pres           &nb= sp;    75

air - fuel         15 to = 1

fuel press           &n= bsp; 42

 

.2 hr high speed taxi

 

Water temp         = 188

oil temp               160

Ex temp           &nb= sp; 1400

Prop speed         2500

MP    &n= bsp;           &nb= sp;       28

fuel press           &n= bsp;   42

 

The static engine run temperatures climbed quite a bit with the cowling on = and working on the programming I didn't notice that this was happening, but = they went right down when I idled back.

I will have to pull the cowling in the morning and check the redrive, it = appears the seal is leaking on the flywheel side.  With no support from = Marcotte, I may have too much 80w in the gearbox.  I believe that the = temperatures look good for flight.  JohnD

 



__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus = signature database 3267 (20080714) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

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