X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail-bw0-f163.google.com ([209.85.218.163] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.14) with ESMTP id 3644001 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 16 May 2009 07:23:14 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.218.163; envelope-from=msteitle@gmail.com Received: by bwz7 with SMTP id 7so2502062bwz.19 for ; Sat, 16 May 2009 04:22:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=cQ09+Ewi0xK/nA4OvtZZJrDKLboMhdmNhnmotSnq2Nc=; b=fmC/U5P2lRpX5SslzFbH3YQugSrOrY1XggoO3C1qnRre2r6YQHoMhkCkGXvTdt3Hdt qIDeB3lhwgyBlb5NYcLducEtHAVCSyXLPaX2Gey8/ZZTKRSksMgN2LMmkkHmX9Ric1ee /Z5HSqqR6heZUZSuVCWdfbILCrb3qgRvJcr3c= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=BhqdlbEWTNyoCcufJqe3S86twIMEnZCWQsHQAV7xam10mtJwhWribMwdqNHQAHCKh6 yY1eX6IYKbD6Za62GXab2+c4uzsWqpVZzg3d745lE1Gn3FaPXiZOUBS/7AXzk62vvZXw 8tlSrc9p48cav02ycT3d1b+RzaFKOx8YNwfkw= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.61.137 with SMTP id t9mr4359983bkh.204.1242472955638; Sat, 16 May 2009 04:22:35 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sat, 16 May 2009 06:22:35 -0500 Message-ID: <5cf132c0905160422n602d2598v5e3923260c97ce73@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] 20b intake help From: Mark Steitle To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e6dee96e29f5ec046a05c705 --0016e6dee96e29f5ec046a05c705 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Steve, That's exactly what I did and it works fine. I used an 80mm and seems abou= t right, but I wouldn't go with any smaller for a 20B or you'll be loosing horsepower. Having the primaries and secondaries separated is most likely done for drivability (quick throttle response, etc.)... not a big concern with airplanes. Mark S. On Fri, May 15, 2009 at 10:33 PM, Steve Parkins wro= te: > i have done two now and it is heavy 18 pds with TB. the tb is 7 pds. > a lot of wight was in the making of primary/secondary air. > my question is, do i need to split the air ? could i just go with a big T= B > and 6 inlets > (plz read sds web site) rvjguy@ canard forum thanks in advance > > > steve parkins > > > > > From: flyrotary@lancaironline.net > To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net > Subject: flyrotary Digest #2459 > Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 06:00:15 -0400 > > Rotary motors in aircraft Digest #2459 > > 1) Re: Initial Tuning - Today > by James Maher > 2) Re: Starter Problem \ Question > by Jeff Whaley > 3) Re: Initial Tuning - Today > by James Maher > 4) Re: Initial Tuning - Today > by Mark Steitle > 5) Fuel Pressure Regulator \ Vacuum Leak > by "Bobby J. Hughes" > 6) UMA Tach > by "John" > 7) Re: UMA Tach > by "Ed Anderson" > 8) Re: Fuel Pressure Regulator \ Vacuum Leak > by "Al Gietzen" > > This digest is sent to you because you are subscribed to > the mailing list . > To unsubscribe, E-mail to: > To switch to the FEED mode, E-mail to > Send administrative queries to > > > > --Forwarded Message Attachment-- > Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 06:56:11 -0700 > From: delta11xd@att.net > Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Initial Tuning - Today > > Mike, > > One way to test for intake manifold leaks is to pinch off hoses one by on= e > while the engine is running to see if RPM decreases. You could also remov= e > the each hose at the manifold an plug the inlet. Also be sure that the > intake manifold gasket and throttle body gasket are sealing good and that > all bolts are tight. > > Jim > > > > > > --- On *Mon, 5/11/09, Mike Fontenot *wr= ote: > > From: Mike Fontenot > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Initial Tuning - Today > To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" > Date: Monday, May 11, 2009, 3:50 PM > > > =3D=3D=3D JIM, > > I will look at what kinds of adjustments I can make on the Throttle Body. > Wow, that is low RPM!. I had no idea. Problem is I don't know what I don'= t > know. > > > >>> 1. Manifold leak - if this is the case it should be found and fixed > before any tuning is continued. Check all hoses and fittings on the intak= e > manifold and throttle body. Check that the throttle is closing all the wa= y. > It may need adjustment. <<< > > What technique do you use for leak detection? > > > >>>2. Idle setting on throttle body not properly set. If the throttle bod= y > has a idle speed setting > > screw (allows air after the throttle plate) try to turn it to reduce the > idle.<<< > > I will look for that. > > > Thanks again > > -- > Mike > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > Mike Fontenot > Apex Consulting & Services LLC > Lakewood, Colorado > 303 / 731-6645 > mikef AT apexconsultingservices DOT com > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > > > --Forwarded Message Attachment-- > From: jwhaley@datacast.com > Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 07:06:27 -0700 > Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Starter Problem \ Question > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bobby, I have seen similar problems with contactors/relays in > the past, specifically the automotive starter relays that are chassis > grounded > and require +12V to activate the relay =85 if the +12V (battery voltage) = is > weak these relays will stick ON. In my case, the starter would stay engag= ed > so > there was no doubt about what was happening but the engine was not runnin= g > =85 > in your case with the engine running you may not be able tell. > > > Why don=92t you run the starter for a second or two, but do > not let the engine start (turn fuel off for example) then check your amp > meter > after disengage? Jeff > > > > > > *From:* Rotary motors in > aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] *On Behalf Of *Bobby J. > Hughes > > *Sent:* Tuesday, May 12, 2009 12:36 AM > > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Starter Problem \ Question > > > > > > > > Is > it possible for a starter to keep drawing current after engine start > without > being engaged to the starter wheel? I was seeing a 38A draw today during > ground runs with only fuel, spark, EM2/3 and engine monitor turned on. > Normally > I see about 15A in this condition. During ground runs last week > and running on my backup battery\ wiring I popped an 80A ANL > fuse several minutes after engine start. At the time I suspected a > hot polyfuse in a crowbar circuit for the alternator triggered the > event. After > studying my wiring diagram I determined the crowbar opening could not cau= se > the > fuse to fail. The only item capable of blowing this fuse is the starter. > The > starter coil wire is in parallel with a firewall contactor coil wire. Bot= h > coil wires go to a starter switch fused at 10A. I suspect a starter probl= em > is > keeping voltage on the coil lead and keeping the firewall contactor close= d > after engine start. My firewall contactor is not the usually starter > contactor with the small wiring terminal for the starter. It's a > conventional > contactor but rated for high current. This may be part of the problem. If > the starter checks out then I will use a DC amp meter on the starter lead= . > I > may also add a run-on light to the coil leads. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Any > input would be appreciated. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bobby > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --Forwarded Message Attachment-- > Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 07:07:22 -0700 > From: delta11xd@att.net > Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Initial Tuning - Today > > Mike, > > Are you using the right fuel injector for your application? > > Such large jumps may be due to improper injector sizing. > > The Geo engine is a fuel sipper rather than a gas guzzler so it would > require > > an injector that can meter fuel much more precisely. > > Just a thought. > > Jim > > --- On *Mon, 5/11/09, Mike Fontenot *wr= ote: > > From: Mike Fontenot > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Initial Tuning - Today > To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" > Date: Monday, May 11, 2009, 11:35 PM > > > Tracy, > > >>All good except for (again) the MAP increasing. My guess is that you > Assumed that the MAP went up when the RPM went up. This does not happen > under these circumstances without increasing the throttle. See previous > comments on this. Think of the engine as a vacuum pump (it is). If you = do > something to make the engine (vacuum pump) turn faster WITHOUT opening th= e > throttle more, the MAP is going to go DOWN (more vacuum), not UP, as the > engine sucks more air through the same restriction.<< > > Right, yes I probably did assume that when the RPM went up so did the MAP= . > Good explanation, I'll be sure to observe that next engine run. Its not C= old > Fusion (power de novo). > > >>Are you saying that the MI jumps around (up and down?) all the time, wh= en > you move the mixture control, random direction when you move the mix > control, or what? Position of O2 > sensor (too close to end of pipe, too cold a position, etc), exhaust leak= s, > engine miss, bad connections, poor ground, and other things can cause bad > indications. << > > When I was in Mode 3, and adjusting the mixture knob, the direction of > change of the Mixture Knob and the increase and decrease of the Mixture > Indicator were in the same direction. It was just that what I thought was= a > small change on the Knob resulted in a big change on the Mixture Indicato= r. > Same when using the Program KNob and Store button. One push to increase > injector flow rate there could make the Mixture Indicator go from positio= n 3 > of 16 to 11 of 16. Movement of the Mixture Indicator always tracked the > Mixture Knob or changes via the Program Knob, but I was expecting smooth > increases. And in Mode 3 that generally did not happy, they were larger > changes. I hate to use this term but 'twitchy'. Again, I will run it up > again and watch, note these > specific things. > > I might try checking the wiring and putting a ground strap on the O2 sens= or > as a first attempt. > > -- > Mike > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > Mike Fontenot > Apex Consulting & Services LLC > Lakewood, Colorado > 303 / 731-6645 > mikef AT apexconsultingservices DOT com > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > > > --Forwarded Message Attachment-- > Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 09:20:53 -0500 > Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Initial Tuning - Today > From: msteitle@gmail.com > > Jim, > > > > I've had good luck finding vacuum leaks using WD-40. With the engine > running, spray WD-40 around the intake gasket and other places you suspec= t a > leak. Since WD-40 is flammable, the engine will change speed if it sucks > some liquid into the intake. If the engine speed changes, you've found y= our > leak. For safety purposes, and to keep the WD-40 from spraying you in th= e > face, you may want to remove the prop. > > > > > Another way to diagnose engine problems is with a vacuum gauge. See > http://autospeed.com/cms/title_Using-a-Vacuum-Gauge-for-Engine-Diagnostic= s/A_2393/article.html > > > Mark S. > > > > On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 8:56 AM, James Maher wrote: > > > > > > > Mike, > > One way to test for intake manifold leaks is to pinch off hoses one by on= e > while the engine is running to see if RPM decreases. You could also remov= e > the each hose at the manifold an plug the inlet. Also be sure that the > intake manifold gasket and throttle body gasket are sealing good and that > all bolts are tight. > > > Jim > > > > > > --- On *Mon, 5/11/09, Mike Fontenot > @apexconsultingservices.com>* wrote: > > From: Mike Fontenot > @apexconsultingservices.com> > > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Initial Tuning - Today > To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" <= flyrotary@lancaironline.net> > @lancaironline.net> > Date: Monday, May 11, 2009, 3:50 PM > > > > =3D=3D=3D JIM, > > I will look at what kinds of adjustments I can make on the Throttle Body. > Wow, that is low RPM!. I had no idea. Problem is I don't know what I don'= t > know. > > > >>> 1. Manifold leak - if this is the case it should be found and fixed > before any tuning is continued. Check all hoses and fittings on the intak= e > manifold and throttle body. Check that the throttle is closing all the wa= y. > It may need adjustment. <<< > > > What technique do you use for leak detection? > > > >>>2. Idle setting on throttle body not properly set. If the throttle bod= y > has a idle speed setting > > screw (allows air after the throttle plate) try to turn it to reduce the > idle.<<< > > I will look for that. > > > Thanks again > > -- > Mike > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > Mike Fontenot > > Apex Consulting & Services LLC > Lakewood, Colorado > 303 / 731-6645 > mikef AT apexconsultingservices DOT com > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > > > > > > --Forwarded Message Attachment-- > Subject: Fuel Pressure Regulator \ Vacuum Leak > Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 19:11:19 -0600 > From: bhughes@qnsi.net > > > > > > > > > I reinstalled my EC2 yesterday after a > few changes by Tracy. I immediately discovered a new problem. The lowest > MAP > address being used was 62 and both primary and secondary injectors fired = at > all > MP and RPM. With Tracy on the phone and Dennis H supervising my efforts w= e > found > a small vacuum leak at the Aeromotive A1000-6 fuel pressure regulator. > After > switching the two MP tubes between A&B controllers the A controller start= er > > working as expected. The EC2 staged properly with lower MAP addresses bei= ng > > accessed. When reinstalling the EC2 I had switch the MP tubes from my usu= al > > configuration. A couple of weeks ago I had noticed my B controller was no= t > working as expected. I had to continually adjust the mixture to keep the > engine > running. Now I know why. What was unexpected is one MP tube is used for t= he > > fuel pressure regulator, B Controller and my Advanced EFIS engine monitor= . > The > Advanced engine monitor was not affected by the slight leak. On the other > hand > the EM3 did see the leak and was showing static pressure regardless of > MP. Here is a note from the Aeromotive web site. > > > > > > > > > > NOTE: Testing > the enclosed regulator by applying air pressure or vacuum to the vacuum > port > with a > > > hand-held pump will yield poor results, > due to the slight air leakage through the adjustment screw > > threads. This minute leakage, which is > typical of all adjustable fuel pressure regulators, does not, in any > > way, affect the performance of the > regulator. > > > > Bobby > Hughes > > > > --Forwarded Message Attachment-- > From: downing.j@sbcglobal.net > Subject: UMA Tach > Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 21:35:39 -0400 > > > > > > > > > > > A great big thanks goes out to Bob, Ed and Jeff for > the effort these gentlemen put in on a solution to my tach condition. I > ordered the tach from UMA today, which is part number 19-51A-201, which i= s > a > 7,000 rpm tach, 2 1/4" dia., which will operate on the 5v signal to one > LS-1 > coil. Price is $141.00. Phone number for UMA is 1-800/842-5578, in > case anyone is looking for an analog tach in 2 1/4 or 3 1/8th" size. > Another plus for UMA, it is made in Virginia, Good Ole USA. > JohnD > > > > --Forwarded Message Attachment-- > From: eanderson@carolina.rr.com > Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] UMA Tach > Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 22:11:28 -0400 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You=92re Welcome, John > > > > > > That=92s what this list is all about =96 > helping each to get those rotaries airborne. > > > > > > Ed > > > > > > > > Ed Anderson > > > Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered > > > Matthews, NC > > > eanderson@carolina.rr.com > > > http://www.andersonee.com > > > http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html > > > http://www.flyrotary.com/ > > > http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW > > > http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] > *On Behalf Of *John > > *Sent:* Tuesday, May 12, 2009 9:36 > PM > > *To:* Rotary > motors in aircraft > > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] UMA Tach > > > > > > > > > > A great big thanks goes out to Bob, Ed and Jeff for the > effort these gentlemen put in on a solution to my tach condition. I > ordered the tach from UMA today, which is part number 19-51A-201, which i= s > a > 7,000 rpm tach, 2 1/4" dia., which will operate on the 5v signal to one > LS-1 coil. Price is $141.00. Phone number for UMA is > 1-800/842-5578, in case anyone is looking for an analog tach in 2 1/4 or = 3 > 1/8th" size. Another plus for UMA, it is made in Virginia, Good Ole USA. > JohnD > > > > > > > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus > signature > database 3267 (20080714) __________ > > > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > > > http://www.eset.com > > > > > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus > signature database 3267 (20080714) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > > > > > > --Forwarded Message Attachment-- > From: ALVentures@cox.net > Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Fuel Pressure Regulator \ Vacuum Leak > Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 22:21:21 -0800 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Here is a note from the Aeromotive > web site. > > > > > > > > > > > > . . . .This minute > leakage, which is typical of all adjustable fuel pressure regulators, doe= s > not, > in any > > > way, affect the performance of the regulator. > > > Maybe it is typical of all *Aeromotive* pressure regulators; but my TWM > adjustable > regulator is T=92d off the line to controller B, and has worked fine for > four years with no leakage. > > > Al G > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > Hotmail=AE has a new way to see what's up with your friends. Check it out= . > --0016e6dee96e29f5ec046a05c705 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Steve,

That's exactly what I did and it works fine.=A0 I used an= 80mm and seems about right, but I wouldn't go with any smaller for a 2= 0B or you'll be loosing horsepower.=A0 Having the primaries and seconda= ries separated is most likely done for drivability (quick throttle response= , etc.)... not a big concern with airplanes.

Mark S.

On Fri, May 15, 2009 at 10:33= PM, Steve Parkins <momsblacksheep@msn.com> wrote:
i have done two now and it is heavy 18 pds with TB. the tb is 7 pds.
a lot of wight was in the making of primary/secondary air.
my question is, do i need to split the air ? could i just go with a big TB = and 6 inlets
(plz read sds web site) rvjguy@ canard forum=A0 thanks in advance

steve parkins



=A0
From: = flyrotary@lancaironline.net
To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net
Subject: fl= yrotary Digest #2459
Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 06:00:15 -0400

        Rotary motors in =
aircraft Digest #2459
 
 1) Re: Initial Tuning - Today
    by Jame=
s Maher <delta11x=
d@att.net>

 2) Re: Starter Problem \ Question
    by Jeff Whaley <jwhaley@datacast.com> 3) Re: Initial Tuning - Today
    by James Maher <delta11xd@att.net>

 4) Re: Initial Tuning - Today
    by Mark Steitle <msteitle@gmail.com>
 5) Fu=
el Pressure Regulator \ Vacuum Leak
    by "Bobby J. Hughes" &=
lt;bhughes@qnsi.net>

 6) UMA Tach
    by "John" <downing.j@sbcglobal.net>
 7) Re: UM=
A Tach
    by "Ed Anderson" <eanderson@carolina.rr.com>

 8) Re: Fuel Pressure Regulator \ Vacuum Leak
    by "Al Gietzen&qu=
ot; <ALVentures@=
cox.net>
 
This digest is sent to you because you are subscrib=
ed to

  the mailing list <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>.
To unsubscribe, E-mail=
 to: <flyrotary-off@lancaironline.net>

To switch to the FEED mode, E-mail to <flyrotary-feed@lancaironline.net&g=
t;
Send administrative queries to  <flyrotary-request@lancaironline.net=
>


--Forwarded Message Attachment--
Date: Tue, 12 May 20= 09 06:56:11 -0700
From: delta11xd@att.net
Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Initial Tuning= - Today

Mike,

One way to test for intake manifold leaks is to pinch off hoses one by= one while the engine is running=A0to see if=A0RPM decreases. You could als= o remove the each hose at the manifold an plug the inlet. Also be sure that= the intake manifold gasket and throttle body gasket are sealing good and t= hat all bolts are tight.

Jim

=A0



--- On Mon, 5/11/09, Mike Fontenot <mikef@apexconsultingse= rvices.com> wrote:

From: Mike Fontenot <mikef@apexconsultingservices.co= m>
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Initial Tuning - Today
To: "Rotary motors = in aircraft" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Date: Monday, May 11, 20= 09, 3:50 PM


=3D=3D=3D JIM,

I will look at what kinds of adjustments I can m= ake on the Throttle Body. Wow, that is low RPM!. I had no idea. Problem is = I don't know what I don't know.


>>> 1. Manifold leak - if this is the case it should be found= and fixed before any tuning is continued. Check all hoses and fittings on = the intake manifold and throttle body. Check that the throttle is closing a= ll the way. It may need adjustment. <<<

What technique do you use for leak detection?


>>>2. Idle setting on throttle body not properly set. If the = throttle body has a idle speed setting

screw (allows air after the throttle plate) try to turn it to reduce t= he idle.<<<

I will look for that.


Thanks again

--
Mike

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Mike Fontenot
Apex Consulting & Services LLC
Lakewood, Colorado
303 / 731-6645<= br>mikef AT apexconsultingservices DOT com
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D


--Forwarded Message Atta= chment--
From: jwhaley@dat= acast.com
Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 07:06:27 -0700
Subject: RE: [Fly= Rotary] Starter Problem \ Question
















Bobby, I have = seen similar problems with contactors/relays in
the past, specifically t= he automotive starter relays that are chassis grounded
and require +12V = to activate the relay =85 if the +12V (battery voltage) is
weak these relays will stick ON. In my case, the starter would stay engaged= so
there was no doubt about what was happening but the engine was not r= unning =85
in your case with the engine running you may not be able tell= .



Why don=92t yo= u run the starter for a second or two, but do
not let the engine start (= turn fuel off for example) then check your amp meter
after disengage?=A0= Jeff



=A0

=

From: Rotary motors in
aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] <= b>On Behalf Of Bobby J.
Hughes

Sent: Tuesday, May 12, 2009 12:36 AM

To:= Rotary motors in aircraft

Subject: [FlyRotary] Starter Probl= em \ Question



=A0





Is
it possible for a starter to keep= drawing current after engine start without
being engaged to the starter= wheel? I=A0was seeing a 38A draw today during
ground runs with only fue= l, spark, EM2/3 and engine monitor turned on. Normally
I see about 15A in this condition. During ground runs last week
and=A0ru= nning on my backup battery\ wiring I popped an 80A=A0ANL
fuse=A0several = minutes after engine start.=A0At the time I suspected a
hot polyfuse in = a crowbar circuit=A0for the alternator triggered the event.=A0After
studying my wiring diagram I determined the crowbar opening could not cause= the
fuse to fail. The only item capable of blowing this fuse is the sta= rter. The
starter coil wire is in parallel with a=A0firewall contactor c= oil wire. Both
coil wires go to a starter switch fused at 10A. I suspect a starter problem= is
keeping voltage on the coil lead and keeping the firewall contactor = closed
after engine start.=A0My firewall contactor is not=A0the usually = starter
contactor with the small wiring terminal for the starter. It's a conven= tional
contactor but rated for high current. This may be part of the pro= blem.=A0If
the starter checks out then I will use a DC amp meter on the = starter lead. I
may also add a run-on light to the coil leads.




=


=A0







Any
input would be appreciated.







=A0







Bobby







=A0












--Forward= ed Message Attachment--
Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 07:07:22 -0700
From: <= a href=3D"mailto:delta11xd@att.net" target=3D"_blank">delta11xd@att.net=
Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Initial Tuning - Today



--Forwarded Message Attachment--
Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 09:2= 0:53 -0500
Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Initial Tuning - Today
From: msteitle@gmail.com

Jim,

=A0

I've had good luck finding vacuum leaks using=A0WD-40.=A0 With the= engine running, spray WD-40 around the intake gasket and other places you = suspect a leak.=A0 Since WD-40 is flammable, the engine will change speed i= f it sucks some liquid into the intake.=A0 If the engine speed changes, you= 've found your leak.=A0 For safety purposes, and to keep the WD-40 from= spraying you in the face,=A0you may=A0want to remove the prop.


=A0

Another way to=A0diagnose engine problems=A0is with a vacuum gauge.=A0= See http://autospeed.com= /cms/title_Using-a-Vacuum-Gauge-for-Engine-Diagnostics/A_2393/article.html<= /a>


Mark S.

=A0

Mike,

Are you using the right fuel injector for your application?

Such large jumps may be due to improper injector sizing.

The Geo engine is a fuel sipper rather than a gas guzzler so it would = require

an injector that can meter fuel much more precisely.

Just a thought.

Jim

--- On Mon, 5/11/09, Mike Fontenot <<= a href=3D"mailto:mikef@apexconsultingservices.com" target=3D"_blank">mikef@= apexconsultingservices.com> wrote:

From: Mike Fontenot <mikef@apexconsultingservices.co= m>
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Initial Tuning - Today
To: "Rotary motors = in aircraft" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Date: Monday, May 11, 20= 09, 11:35 PM


Tracy,

>>All good except for (again) the MAP increasing.= =A0=A0 My guess is that you Assumed that the MAP went up when the RPM went = up. =A0 This does not happen under these circumstances without increasing t= he throttle.=A0 See previous comments on this.=A0 Think of the engine as a = vacuum pump (it is).=A0 If you do something to make the engine (vacuum pump= ) turn faster WITHOUT opening the throttle more, the MAP is going to go DOW= N (more vacuum), not UP, as the engine sucks more air through the same rest= riction.<<

Right, yes I probably did assume that when the RPM went up so did the M= AP. Good explanation, I'll be sure to observe that next engine run. Its= not Cold Fusion (power de novo).

>>Are you saying that the MI= jumps around (up and down?) all the time, when you move the mixture contro= l, random direction=A0 when you move the mix control, or what?=A0=A0 Positi= on of O2
sensor (too close to end of pipe, too cold a position, etc), exhaust leaks,= engine miss, bad connections, poor ground, and other things can cause bad = indications. <<

When I was in Mode 3, and adjusting the mixtur= e knob, the direction of change of the Mixture Knob and the increase and de= crease of the Mixture Indicator were in the same direction. It was just tha= t what I thought was a small change on the Knob resulted in a big change on= the Mixture Indicator. Same when using the Program KNob and Store button. = One push to increase injector flow rate there could make the Mixture Indica= tor go from position 3 of 16 to 11 of 16.=A0=A0 Movement of the Mixture Ind= icator always tracked the Mixture Knob or changes via the=A0 Program Knob, = but I was expecting smooth increases. And in Mode 3 that generally did not = happy, they were larger changes. I hate to use this term but 'twitchy&#= 39;.=A0 Again, I will run it up again and watch, note these
specific things.=A0

I might try checking the wiring and putting a g= round strap on the O2 sensor as a first attempt.

--
Mike
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Mike Fontenot
Apex Consulting & Services= LLC
Lakewood, Colorado
303 / 731-6645
mikef AT apexconsultingservices DOT= com
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D




Mike,

One way to test for intake manifold leaks is to pinch off hoses one by= one while the engine is running=A0to see if=A0RPM decreases. You could als= o remove the each hose at the manifold an plug the inlet. Also be sure that= the intake manifold gasket and throttle body gasket are sealing good and t= hat all bolts are tight.


Jim

=A0



--- On Mon, 5/11/09, Mike Fontenot <mikef@apexconsultingservices.com> wrot= e:

From: Mike Fontenot <mikef@apexconsultingservices.com>

Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Initial Tuning - Today
To: "Rotary mot= ors in aircraft" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net= >
Date: Monday, May 11, 2009, 3:50 PM



=3D=3D=3D JIM,

I will look at what kinds of adjustments I can m= ake on the Throttle Body. Wow, that is low RPM!. I had no idea. Problem is = I don't know what I don't know.


>>> 1. Manifold leak - if this is the case it should be found= and fixed before any tuning is continued. Check all hoses and fittings on = the intake manifold and throttle body. Check that the throttle is closing a= ll the way. It may need adjustment. <<<


What technique do you use for leak detection?


>>>2. Idle setting on throttle body not properly set. If the = throttle body has a idle speed setting

screw (allows air after the throttle plate) try to turn it to reduce t= he idle.<<<

I will look for that.


Thanks again

--
Mike

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Mike Fontenot

Apex Consulting & Services LLC
Lakewood, Colorado
303 / 731-6= 645
mikef AT apexconsultingservices DOT com
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D





--Forwarded Message Attachment--
Subject: Fuel= Pressure Regulator \ Vacuum Leak
Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 19:11:19 -0600<= br>From: bhughes@qnsi= .net








I reinstalled my EC2=A0 yesterday after= a
few changes by Tracy. I immediately discovered a new problem. The lo= west MAP
address being used was 62 and both primary and secondary injectors fired at= all
MP and RPM. With Tracy on the phone and Dennis H supervising my ef= forts we found
a small vacuum leak at the Aeromotive A1000-6 fuel press= ure regulator. After
switching the two MP tubes between A&B controllers the A controller sta= rter
working as expected. The EC2 staged properly=A0with lower MAP addr= esses being
accessed. When reinstalling the EC2 I had switch the MP tub= es from my usual
configuration. A couple of weeks ago I had noticed my B controller was not =
working as expected. I had to continually adjust the mixture to keep th= e engine
running.=A0Now I know why. What was unexpected is one MP tube = is used for the
fuel pressure regulator, B Controller and my Advanced EFIS engine monitor. = The
Advanced engine monitor was not affected by the slight leak. On the= other hand
the EM3 did see the=A0leak and was=A0showing static pressur= e regardless of
MP. Here is a note from the Aeromotive web site.
<= /span>

=A0
=A0
=A0
=A0
NOTE: Testing
the enclosed r= egulator by applying air pressure or vacuum to the vacuum port
with a


hand-held pump will yield= poor results,
due to the slight air leakage through the adjustment scr= ew


threads. This minute leak= age, which is
typical of all adjustable fuel pressure regulators, does = not, in any


way, affect the performan= ce of the
regulator.


=A0

Bobby
Hughes=A0=




--Forwarded Message Attachment--
Fr= om: downing.j@= sbcglobal.net
Subject: UMA Tach
Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 21:35:39 -0400



<= br>





A great big thanks goes out to Bob, Ed= and Jeff for
the effort these gentlemen put in on a solution to my tac= h condition.=A0 I
ordered the tach from UMA today, which is part number= 19-51A-201, which is a
7,000 rpm tach, 2 1/4" dia., which will operate on the 5v signal to on= e LS-1
coil.=A0 Price is $141.00.=A0 Phone number for UMA is 1-800/842-= 5578, in
case anyone is looking for an analog tach in 2 1/4 or 3 1/8th&= quot; size.=A0
Another plus for UMA, it is made in Virginia, Good Ole USA.=A0
JohnD



--Forwarded Message Attachment--
From: eanderson@carolina.rr.c= om
Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] UMA Tach
Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 22:11:28 -0400<= br>

























You=92re Welcome, John



=A0



That=92s what this list is all abo= ut =96
helping each to get those rotaries airborne.


=A0



Ed



=A0













From: Ro= tary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net]
On Behalf Of John

<= b>Sent: Tuesday, May 12, 2009= 9:36
PM

To: Rot= ary
motors in aircraft

Subject: [FlyRotary] UMA Tach





=A0





A great big thanks goes out to Bob, Ed and Jeff for the
eff= ort these gentlemen put in on a solution to my tach condition.=A0 I
orde= red the tach from UMA today, which is part number 19-51A-201, which is a 7,000 rpm tach, 2 1/4" dia., which will operate on the 5v signal to on= e
LS-1 coil.=A0 Price is $141.00.=A0 Phone number for UMA is
1-800/84= 2-5578, in case anyone is looking for an analog tach in 2 1/4 or 3
1/8th= " size.=A0 Another plus for UMA, it is made in Virginia, Good Ole USA.= =A0
JohnD









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database 3267 (20080714) __________



= The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.



http://www.e= set.com







__________ Infor= mation from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3267 = (20080714) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com



=

--Forwarded Message Attachment--
From: ALVentures@cox.net
Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Fuel Pressure Regulator \ Vacuum Leak
Date: Tue= , 12 May 2009 22:21:21 -0800





















Here is a note from the Aero= motive
web site.







= =A0=A0




=

. = . . .This minute
leakage, which is typical of all adjustable fuel pressure regulators, does = not,
in any



way, affect the performance of t= he regulator.



Maybe it is typical of all Aeromotive pressure regulator= s; but my TWM adjustable
regulator is T=92d off the line to controller B, and has worked fine forfour years with no leakage.


Al G








Hotmail=AE has a new way to see what's u= p with your friends. C= heck it out.

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