X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from relais.videotron.ca ([24.201.245.36] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.13) with ESMTP id 3578352 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 12 Apr 2009 15:36:31 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=24.201.245.36; envelope-from=jrmjoseph@videotron.ca MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Boundary_(ID_xeBPe3n2B9YxPOTCyDJxeg)" Received: from vl-mo-mpf02.ip.videotron.ca ([10.23.37.51]) by VL-MO-MR003.ip.videotron.ca (Sun Java(tm) System Messaging Server 6.3-4.01 (built Aug 3 2007; 32bit)) with ESMTP id <0KI000JIH6FU5W80@VL-MO-MR003.ip.videotron.ca> for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 12 Apr 2009 15:35:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from videotron.ca (unknown [10.23.32.117]) by vl-mo-mpf02.ip.videotron.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 210017287C0 for ; Sun, 12 Apr 2009 15:35:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [10.23.32.88] by VL-MH-MM004.ip.videotron.ca (mshttpd); Sun, 12 Apr 2009 15:35:54 -0400 From: jrmjoseph@videotron.ca To: Rotary motors in aircraft Message-id: Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 15:35:54 -0400 X-Mailer: Sun Java(tm) System Messenger Express 6.3-5.02 (built Oct 12 2007; 32bit) Content-language: fr Subject: Re : [FlyRotary] Re: Re : [FlyRotary] Re: Gary Casey was [FlyRotary] Re: Rotary Engines X-Accept-Language: fr Priority: normal In-reply-to: References: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_xeBPe3n2B9YxPOTCyDJxeg) Content-type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Content-disposition: inline Also a Sadler with a Rotamax=2E=26nbsp=3B But the cause is =3F=3CBR=3E=26= nbsp=3B=3CBR=3EMarc Joseph=3CBR=3E=3CBR=3E----- Message d=27origine ----= -=3CBR=3EDe=3A David Leonard =26lt=3Bwdleonard=40gmail=2Ecom=26gt=3B=3CB= R=3EDate=3A Dimanche=2C 12 Avril 2009=2C 13=3A53=3CBR=3EObjet=3A =5BFlyR= otary=5D Re=3A Re =3A =5BFlyRotary=5D Re=3A Gary Casey was =5BFlyRotary=5D= Re=3A Rotary Engines=3CBR=3E=C0=3A Rotary motors in aircraft =26lt=3Bfl= yrotary=40lancaironline=2Enet=26gt=3B=3CBR=3E=3CBR=3E=3CBR=3E=3CFONT sty= le=3D=22FONT-WEIGHT=3A normal=3B FONT-SIZE=3A 14px=3B FONT-STYLE=3A norm= al=3B BACKGROUND-COLOR=3A =23f5f8f0=22=3E=26gt=3B =3C/FONT=3EThats right= right=2C Marc=2E=26nbsp=3B Also incidents that I recall=3A=3CBR=3E=26nb= sp=3B=3CBR=3E=3CFONT style=3D=22FONT-WEIGHT=3A normal=3B FONT-SIZE=3A 14= px=3B FONT-STYLE=3A normal=3B BACKGROUND-COLOR=3A =23f5f8f0=22=3E=26gt=3B= =3C/FONT=3EA coot with an out of CG that flew anyway and crashed he was= known to Ken Welters=2C who (among others)=26nbsp=3Badvised him not to = fly the plane=2E=3CBR=3E=3CFONT style=3D=22FONT-WEIGHT=3A normal=3B FONT= -SIZE=3A 14px=3B FONT-STYLE=3A normal=3B BACKGROUND-COLOR=3A =23f5f8f0=22= =3E=26gt=3B =3C/FONT=3EA guy somewhere on the west coast=2C on on any of= the lists=2C who built some sort of plans built or personal design that= crashed and burned on first flight=2E=26nbsp=3B Details sketchy - thoug= h he was also advised by many that the plane was unsafe=2E=26nbsp=3B He = apparently also skipped his FAA inspection=2E (also fatal)=3CBR=3E=3CFON= T style=3D=22FONT-WEIGHT=3A normal=3B FONT-SIZE=3A 14px=3B FONT-STYLE=3A= normal=3B BACKGROUND-COLOR=3A =23f5f8f0=22=3E=26gt=3B =3C/FONT=3EOne of= the early Powersport installations in a nice looking pusher that develo= ped a crack=26nbsp=3Bin the exhaust system (possibly due to faulty weldi= ng practices) and the hot exhaust caused vapor lock=2E=3CBR=3E=3CFONT st= yle=3D=22FONT-WEIGHT=3A normal=3B FONT-SIZE=3A 14px=3B FONT-STYLE=3A nor= mal=3B BACKGROUND-COLOR=3A =23f5f8f0=22=3E=26gt=3B =3C/FONT=3EOne of the= Powersport installations that was at Vans homecoming (one of those real= ly nice RV-8s) had some sort of electrical system failure that caused a = crash=2E =3CBR=3E=3CFONT style=3D=22FONT-WEIGHT=3A normal=3B FONT-SIZE=3A= 14px=3B FONT-STYLE=3A normal=3B BACKGROUND-COLOR=3A =23f5f8f0=22=3E=26g= t=3B =3C/FONT=3EJim Mouser=27s old RV-6 crashed due to a reported pilot = loss of control=2E=26nbsp=3B I believe that left Ed as the last remainin= g flying plugs up installation=2E=3CBR=3E=3CFONT style=3D=22FONT-WEIGHT=3A= normal=3B FONT-SIZE=3A 14px=3B FONT-STYLE=3A normal=3B BACKGROUND-COLOR= =3A =23f5f8f0=22=3E=26gt=3B =3C/FONT=3EIan Beale lost his first RV-6 due= to a broken coolant line=2E=3CBR=3E=3CBR=3E=3CFONT style=3D=22FONT-WEIG= HT=3A normal=3B FONT-SIZE=3A 14px=3B FONT-STYLE=3A normal=3B BACKGROUND-= COLOR=3A =23f5f8f0=22=3E=26gt=3B =3C/FONT=3ENo sure if any of those were= already included on your list=2E=26nbsp=3B Probably more that I don=27t= know about=2E=26nbsp=3B Still=2C the engine is sound and has a good pow= er to weight ratio and small size=2E=26nbsp=3B The devil is in the detai= ls=2E=3CBR=3E=3CBR=3E=3CFONT style=3D=22FONT-WEIGHT=3A normal=3B FONT-SI= ZE=3A 14px=3B FONT-STYLE=3A normal=3B BACKGROUND-COLOR=3A =23f5f8f0=22=3E= =26gt=3B =3C/FONT=3E-- =3CBR=3E=3CFONT style=3D=22FONT-WEIGHT=3A normal=3B= FONT-SIZE=3A 14px=3B FONT-STYLE=3A normal=3B BACKGROUND-COLOR=3A =23f5f= 8f0=22=3E=26gt=3B =3C/FONT=3EDavid Leonard=3CBR=3E=3CBR=3E=3CFONT style=3D= =22FONT-WEIGHT=3A normal=3B FONT-SIZE=3A 14px=3B FONT-STYLE=3A normal=3B= BACKGROUND-COLOR=3A =23f5f8f0=22=3E=26gt=3B =3C/FONT=3ETurbo Rotary RV-= 6 N4VY=3CBR=3E=3CA href=3D=22http=3A//n4vy=2Erotaryroster=2Enet/=22 targ= et=3D1=3E=3CFONT style=3D=22FONT-WEIGHT=3A normal=3B FONT-SIZE=3A 14px=3B= FONT-STYLE=3A normal=3B BACKGROUND-COLOR=3A =23f5f8f0=22=3E=26gt=3B =3C= /FONT=3Ehttp=3A//N4VY=2ERotaryRoster=2Enet=3C/A=3E=3CBR=3E=3CA href=3D=22= http=3A//rotaryroster=2Enet/=22 target=3D1=3E=3CFONT style=3D=22FONT-WEI= GHT=3A normal=3B FONT-SIZE=3A 14px=3B FONT-STYLE=3A normal=3B BACKGROUND= -COLOR=3A =23f5f8f0=22=3E=26gt=3B =3C/FONT=3Ehttp=3A//RotaryRoster=2Enet= =3C/A=3E=3CBR=3E=3CBR=3E=3CBR=3E=3CBR=3E=3CBR=3E =3CDIV class=3Dgmail=5Fquote=3E=3CFONT style=3D=22FONT-WEIGHT=3A normal=3B= FONT-SIZE=3A 14px=3B FONT-STYLE=3A normal=3B BACKGROUND-COLOR=3A =23f5f= 8f0=22=3E=26gt=3B =3C/FONT=3EOn Sun=2C Apr 12=2C 2009 at 5=3A34 AM=2C =3C= SPAN dir=3Dltr=3E=26lt=3B=3CA href=3D=22javascript=3Amain=2Ecompose(=27n= ew=27=2C=27t=3Djrmjoseph=40videotron=2Eca=27)=22 target=3D1=3Ejrmjoseph=40= videotron=2Eca=3C/A=3E=26gt=3B=3C/SPAN=3E wrote=3A=3CBR=3E =3CBLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail=5Fquote style=3D=22PADDING-LEFT=3A 1ex=3B MA= RGIN=3A 0px 0px 0px 0=2E8ex=3B BORDER-LEFT=3A rgb(204=2C204=2C204) 1px s= olid=22=3E=3CFONT style=3D=22FONT-WEIGHT=3A normal=3B FONT-SIZE=3A 14px=3B= FONT-STYLE=3A normal=3B BACKGROUND-COLOR=3A =23f5f8f0=22=3E=26gt=3B =3C= /FONT=3EAlso Mistral with an inadequate muffler=2E=3CBR=3E=26nbsp=3B=3CB= R=3E=3CFONT style=3D=22FONT-WEIGHT=3A normal=3B FONT-SIZE=3A 14px=3B FON= T-STYLE=3A normal=3B BACKGROUND-COLOR=3A =23f5f8f0=22=3E=26gt=3B =3C/FON= T=3EMarc Joseph=3CBR=3E=3CBR=3E=3CFONT style=3D=22FONT-WEIGHT=3A normal=3B= FONT-SIZE=3A 14px=3B FONT-STYLE=3A normal=3B BACKGROUND-COLOR=3A =23f5f= 8f0=22=3E=26gt=3B =3C/FONT=3E----- Message d=27origine -----=3CBR=3E=3CF= ONT style=3D=22FONT-WEIGHT=3A normal=3B FONT-SIZE=3A 14px=3B FONT-STYLE=3A= normal=3B BACKGROUND-COLOR=3A =23f5f8f0=22=3E=26gt=3B =3C/FONT=3EDe=3A = Mark Steitle =26lt=3B=3CA href=3D=22javascript=3Amain=2Ecompose(=27new=27= =2C=27t=3Dmsteitle=40gmail=2Ecom=27)=22 target=3D1=3Emsteitle=40gmail=2E= com=3C/A=3E=26gt=3B=3CBR=3E=3CFONT style=3D=22FONT-WEIGHT=3A normal=3B F= ONT-SIZE=3A 14px=3B FONT-STYLE=3A normal=3B BACKGROUND-COLOR=3A =23f5f8f= 0=22=3E=26gt=3B =3C/FONT=3EDate=3A Dimanche=2C 12 Avril 2009=2C 7=3A46=3C= BR=3E=3CFONT style=3D=22FONT-WEIGHT=3A normal=3B FONT-SIZE=3A 14px=3B FO= NT-STYLE=3A normal=3B BACKGROUND-COLOR=3A =23f5f8f0=22=3E=26gt=3B =3C/FO= NT=3EObjet=3A =5BFlyRotary=5D Re=3A Gary Casey was =5BFlyRotary=5D Re=3A= Rotary Engines=3CBR=3E=3CFONT style=3D=22FONT-WEIGHT=3A normal=3B FONT-= SIZE=3A 14px=3B FONT-STYLE=3A normal=3B BACKGROUND-COLOR=3A =23f5f8f0=22= =3E=26gt=3B =3C/FONT=3E=C0=3A Rotary motors in aircraft =26lt=3B=3CA hre= f=3D=22javascript=3Amain=2Ecompose(=27new=27=2C=27t=3Dflyrotary=40lancai= ronline=2Enet=27)=22 target=3D1=3Eflyrotary=40lancaironline=2Enet=3C/A=3E= =26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=3CBR=3E=3CBR=3E=3CFONT style=3D=22FONT-WEIGHT=3A norma= l=3B FONT-SIZE=3A 14px=3B FONT-STYLE=3A normal=3B BACKGROUND-COLOR=3A rg= b(245=2C248=2C240)=22=3E=3CFONT style=3D=22FONT-WEIGHT=3A normal=3B FONT= -SIZE=3A 14px=3B FONT-STYLE=3A normal=3B BACKGROUND-COLOR=3A =23f5f8f0=22= =3E=26gt=3B =3C/FONT=3E=26gt=3B =3C/FONT=3EMike=2C =3CBR=3E=3CBR=3E=3CFO= NT style=3D=22FONT-WEIGHT=3A normal=3B FONT-SIZE=3A 14px=3B FONT-STYLE=3A= normal=3B BACKGROUND-COLOR=3A rgb(245=2C248=2C240)=22=3E=3CFONT style=3D= =22FONT-WEIGHT=3A normal=3B FONT-SIZE=3A 14px=3B FONT-STYLE=3A normal=3B= BACKGROUND-COLOR=3A =23f5f8f0=22=3E=26gt=3B =3C/FONT=3E=26gt=3B =3C/FON= T=3EHas anyone ever tried to document the rotary incidents resulting in = a forced landing=3F=3CBR=3E=3CBR=3E=3CFONT style=3D=22FONT-WEIGHT=3A nor= mal=3B FONT-SIZE=3A 14px=3B FONT-STYLE=3A normal=3B BACKGROUND-COLOR=3A = rgb(245=2C248=2C240)=22=3E=3CFONT style=3D=22FONT-WEIGHT=3A normal=3B FO= NT-SIZE=3A 14px=3B FONT-STYLE=3A normal=3B BACKGROUND-COLOR=3A =23f5f8f0= =22=3E=26gt=3B =3C/FONT=3E=26gt=3B =3C/FONT=3EHere=27s what I recall fro= m memory=2C so it likely is missing a few=3B=3CBR=3E=26nbsp=3B=3CBR=3E=3C= FONT style=3D=22FONT-WEIGHT=3A normal=3B FONT-SIZE=3A 14px=3B FONT-STYLE= =3A normal=3B BACKGROUND-COLOR=3A rgb(245=2C248=2C240)=22=3E=3CFONT styl= e=3D=22FONT-WEIGHT=3A normal=3B FONT-SIZE=3A 14px=3B FONT-STYLE=3A norma= l=3B BACKGROUND-COLOR=3A =23f5f8f0=22=3E=26gt=3B =3C/FONT=3E=26gt=3B =3C= /FONT=3E=26nbsp=3B=26nbsp=3B=26nbsp=3B 3 forced landings due to ruptured= oil coolers =3CBR=3E=3CFONT style=3D=22FONT-WEIGHT=3A normal=3B FONT-SI= ZE=3A 14px=3B FONT-STYLE=3A normal=3B BACKGROUND-COLOR=3A rgb(245=2C248=2C= 240)=22=3E=3CFONT style=3D=22FONT-WEIGHT=3A normal=3B FONT-SIZE=3A 14px=3B= FONT-STYLE=3A normal=3B BACKGROUND-COLOR=3A =23f5f8f0=22=3E=26gt=3B =3C= /FONT=3E=26gt=3B =3C/FONT=3E=26nbsp=3B=26nbsp=3B=26nbsp=3B 1 forced land= ing due to apex seal coming out of its slot (rotor out of spec)=3CBR=3E=3C= FONT style=3D=22FONT-WEIGHT=3A normal=3B FONT-SIZE=3A 14px=3B FONT-STYLE= =3A normal=3B BACKGROUND-COLOR=3A rgb(245=2C248=2C240)=22=3E=3CFONT styl= e=3D=22FONT-WEIGHT=3A normal=3B FONT-SIZE=3A 14px=3B FONT-STYLE=3A norma= l=3B BACKGROUND-COLOR=3A =23f5f8f0=22=3E=26gt=3B =3C/FONT=3E=26gt=3B =3C= /FONT=3E=26nbsp=3B=26nbsp=3B=26nbsp=3B 1 forced landing due to improper = assembly of engine (seal wedged between rotor =26amp=3B side housing)=3C= BR=3E=3CFONT style=3D=22FONT-WEIGHT=3A normal=3B FONT-SIZE=3A 14px=3B FO= NT-STYLE=3A normal=3B BACKGROUND-COLOR=3A rgb(245=2C248=2C240)=22=3E=3CF= ONT style=3D=22FONT-WEIGHT=3A normal=3B FONT-SIZE=3A 14px=3B FONT-STYLE=3A= normal=3B BACKGROUND-COLOR=3A =23f5f8f0=22=3E=26gt=3B =3C/FONT=3E=26gt=3B= =3C/FONT=3E=26nbsp=3B=26nbsp=3B=26nbsp=3B 1 forced landing on highway d= ue to catastrophic overheating of engine=3CBR=3E=3CFONT style=3D=22FONT-= WEIGHT=3A normal=3B FONT-SIZE=3A 14px=3B FONT-STYLE=3A normal=3B BACKGRO= UND-COLOR=3A rgb(245=2C248=2C240)=22=3E=3CFONT style=3D=22FONT-WEIGHT=3A= normal=3B FONT-SIZE=3A 14px=3B FONT-STYLE=3A normal=3B BACKGROUND-COLOR= =3A =23f5f8f0=22=3E=26gt=3B =3C/FONT=3E=26gt=3B =3C/FONT=3E=26nbsp=3B=26= nbsp=3B=26nbsp=3B 2 forced landings (one fatal) due to probable fuel sys= tem design flaw=26nbsp=3B =3CBR=3E=3CFONT style=3D=22FONT-WEIGHT=3A norm= al=3B FONT-SIZE=3A 14px=3B FONT-STYLE=3A normal=3B BACKGROUND-COLOR=3A r= gb(245=2C248=2C240)=22=3E=3CFONT style=3D=22FONT-WEIGHT=3A normal=3B FON= T-SIZE=3A 14px=3B FONT-STYLE=3A normal=3B BACKGROUND-COLOR=3A =23f5f8f0=22= =3E=26gt=3B =3C/FONT=3E=26gt=3B =3C/FONT=3E=26nbsp=3B=26nbsp=3B=26nbsp=3B= 1 forced landing on highway due to ingestion of FOD=2E=26nbsp=3B =3CBR=3E= =3CBR=3E=3CFONT style=3D=22FONT-WEIGHT=3A normal=3B FONT-SIZE=3A 14px=3B= FONT-STYLE=3A normal=3B BACKGROUND-COLOR=3A rgb(245=2C248=2C240)=22=3E=3C= FONT style=3D=22FONT-WEIGHT=3A normal=3B FONT-SIZE=3A 14px=3B FONT-STYLE= =3A normal=3B BACKGROUND-COLOR=3A =23f5f8f0=22=3E=26gt=3B =3C/FONT=3E=26= gt=3B =3C/FONT=3EThere were a few others=2C such as turbo failures which= allowed for continued operation at reduced power=2C so we may or may no= t wish to include those here=2E=26nbsp=3B =3CBR=3E=3CBR=3E=3CFONT style=3D= =22FONT-WEIGHT=3A normal=3B FONT-SIZE=3A 14px=3B FONT-STYLE=3A normal=3B= BACKGROUND-COLOR=3A rgb(245=2C248=2C240)=22=3E=3CFONT style=3D=22FONT-W= EIGHT=3A normal=3B FONT-SIZE=3A 14px=3B FONT-STYLE=3A normal=3B BACKGROU= ND-COLOR=3A =23f5f8f0=22=3E=26gt=3B =3C/FONT=3E=26gt=3B =3C/FONT=3EWhile= a number of these incidents date back quite a few years=2C and we have = made excellent progress=2C it says to me that we still have room for imp= rovement in the peripheral department=2E=26nbsp=3B The good news is that= out of all of the incidents listed above=2C none of them were caused by= a true engine failure=2E=26nbsp=3B That=27s where the rotary has really= earned my respect as a viable a/c engine=2E=3CBR=3E=3CBR=3E=3CFONT styl= e=3D=22FONT-WEIGHT=3A normal=3B FONT-SIZE=3A 14px=3B FONT-STYLE=3A norma= l=3B BACKGROUND-COLOR=3A rgb(245=2C248=2C240)=22=3E=3CFONT style=3D=22FO= NT-WEIGHT=3A normal=3B FONT-SIZE=3A 14px=3B FONT-STYLE=3A normal=3B BACK= GROUND-COLOR=3A =23f5f8f0=22=3E=26gt=3B =3C/FONT=3E=26gt=3B =3C/FONT=3EP= ay attention to the details! =3CBR=3E=3CBR=3E=3CFONT style=3D=22FONT-WEI= GHT=3A normal=3B FONT-SIZE=3A 14px=3B FONT-STYLE=3A normal=3B BACKGROUND= -COLOR=3A rgb(245=2C248=2C240)=22=3E=3CFONT style=3D=22FONT-WEIGHT=3A no= rmal=3B FONT-SIZE=3A 14px=3B FONT-STYLE=3A normal=3B BACKGROUND-COLOR=3A= =23f5f8f0=22=3E=26gt=3B =3C/FONT=3E=26gt=3B =3C/FONT=3EMark S=2E =3CBR=3E= =3CBR=3E=3CBR=3E=3CBR=3E =3CDIV class=3Dgmail=5Fquote=3E=3CFONT style=3D=22FONT-WEIGHT=3A normal=3B= FONT-SIZE=3A 14px=3B FONT-STYLE=3A normal=3B BACKGROUND-COLOR=3A rgb(24= 5=2C248=2C240)=22=3E=3CFONT style=3D=22FONT-WEIGHT=3A normal=3B FONT-SIZ= E=3A 14px=3B FONT-STYLE=3A normal=3B BACKGROUND-COLOR=3A =23f5f8f0=22=3E= =26gt=3B =3C/FONT=3E=26gt=3B =3C/FONT=3EOn Sat=2C Apr 11=2C 2009 at 9=3A= 22 PM=2C Mike Wills =3CSPAN dir=3Dltr=3E=26lt=3B=3CA=3Erv-4mike=40cox=2E= net=3C/A=3E=26gt=3B=3C/SPAN=3E wrote=3A=3CBR=3E =3CBLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail=5Fquote style=3D=22PADDING-LEFT=3A 1ex=3B MA= RGIN=3A 0pt 0pt 0pt 0=2E8ex=3B BORDER-LEFT=3A rgb(204=2C204=2C204) 1px s= olid=22=3E =3CDIV lang=3DEN-US vlink=3D=22blue=22 link=3D=22blue=22 bgcolor=3D=22=23= ffffff=22=3E=3CFONT face=3DArial size=3D2=3E=3CFONT style=3D=22FONT-WEIG= HT=3A normal=3B FONT-SIZE=3A 14px=3B FONT-STYLE=3A normal=3B BACKGROUND-= COLOR=3A rgb(245=2C248=2C240)=22=3E=3CFONT style=3D=22FONT-WEIGHT=3A nor= mal=3B FONT-SIZE=3A 14px=3B FONT-STYLE=3A normal=3B BACKGROUND-COLOR=3A = =23f5f8f0=22=3E=26gt=3B =3C/FONT=3E=26gt=3B =3C/FONT=3EThis has been an = interesting thread=2E In the end=2C it doesnt really matter how many =22= major=22 parts you have - even a minor failure can bring you down=2E Whi= le I believe the basic rotary engine itself is more fault tolerant than = a recip=2C the peripherals used in the typical rotary install are a lot = more complex than a typical recip install=2E Since we rotary fliers dont= have the benefit of 70 years worth of experience flying behind the typi= cal LyCon farm implement I think overall our odds are considerably worse= =2E Comes down to how well an individual engineer=27s his installation a= nd there is a tremendous amount of variation here=2E=3C/FONT=3E=3CBR=3E=26= nbsp=3B=3CBR=3E=3CFONT face=3DArial size=3D2=3E=3CFONT style=3D=22FONT-W= EIGHT=3A normal=3B FONT-SIZE=3A 14px=3B FONT-STYLE=3A normal=3B BACKGROU= ND-COLOR=3A rgb(245=2C248=2C240)=22=3E=3CFONT style=3D=22FONT-WEIGHT=3A = normal=3B FONT-SIZE=3A 14px=3B FONT-STYLE=3A normal=3B BACKGROUND-COLOR=3A= =23f5f8f0=22=3E=26gt=3B =3C/FONT=3E=26gt=3B =3C/FONT=3EThe dependence o= n electronics in the typical rotary install=26nbsp=3B is a good example=2E= I may be a little=26nbsp=3Bsensitive to this issue since I=27ve been tr= ying to find an intermittent glitch (2 times in 22 hours of engine testi= ng)=2E=3C/FONT=3E=3CBR=3E=26nbsp=3B=3CBR=3E=3CFONT color=3D=23888888=3E=3C= FONT face=3DArial size=3D2=3E=3CFONT style=3D=22FONT-WEIGHT=3A normal=3B= FONT-SIZE=3A 14px=3B FONT-STYLE=3A normal=3B BACKGROUND-COLOR=3A rgb(24= 5=2C248=2C240)=22=3E=3CFONT style=3D=22FONT-WEIGHT=3A normal=3B FONT-SIZ= E=3A 14px=3B FONT-STYLE=3A normal=3B BACKGROUND-COLOR=3A =23f5f8f0=22=3E= =26gt=3B =3C/FONT=3E=26gt=3B =3C/FONT=3EMike Wills=3C/FONT=3E=3CBR=3E=3C= FONT face=3DArial size=3D2=3E=3CFONT style=3D=22FONT-WEIGHT=3A normal=3B= FONT-SIZE=3A 14px=3B FONT-STYLE=3A normal=3B BACKGROUND-COLOR=3A rgb(24= 5=2C248=2C240)=22=3E=3CFONT style=3D=22FONT-WEIGHT=3A normal=3B FONT-SIZ= E=3A 14px=3B FONT-STYLE=3A normal=3B BACKGROUND-COLOR=3A =23f5f8f0=22=3E= =26gt=3B =3C/FONT=3E=26gt=3B =3C/FONT=3ERV-4 N144MW=3C/FONT=3E=26nbsp=3B= =26nbsp=3B=3CBR=3E=3C/FONT=3E =3CBLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D=22PADDING-RIGHT=3A 0px=3B PADDING-LEFT=3A= 5px=3B MARGIN-LEFT=3A 5px=3B BORDER-LEFT=3A rgb(0=2C0=2C0) 2px solid=3B= MARGIN-RIGHT=3A 0px=22=3E =3CDIV style=3D=22FONT=3A 10pt arial=3B font-size-adjust=3A none=3B font= -stretch=3A normal=22=3E=3CFONT style=3D=22FONT-WEIGHT=3A normal=3B FONT= -SIZE=3A 14px=3B FONT-STYLE=3A normal=3B BACKGROUND-COLOR=3A rgb(245=2C2= 48=2C240)=22=3E=3CFONT style=3D=22FONT-WEIGHT=3A normal=3B FONT-SIZE=3A = 14px=3B FONT-STYLE=3A normal=3B BACKGROUND-COLOR=3A =23f5f8f0=22=3E=26gt= =3B =3C/FONT=3E=26gt=3B =3C/FONT=3E----- Original Message ----- =3CBR=3E= =3CDIV style=3D=22BACKGROUND=3A rgb(228=2C228=2C228)=3B FONT=3A 10pt ari= al=3B font-size-adjust=3A none=3B font-stretch=3A normal=3B -moz-backgro= und-clip=3A -moz-initial=3B -moz-background-origin=3A -moz-initial=3B -m= oz-background-inline-policy=3A -moz-initial=22=3E=3CB=3E=3CFONT style=3D= =22FONT-WEIGHT=3A normal=3B FONT-SIZE=3A 14px=3B FONT-STYLE=3A normal=3B= BACKGROUND-COLOR=3A rgb(245=2C248=2C240)=22=3E=3CFONT style=3D=22FONT-W= EIGHT=3A normal=3B FONT-SIZE=3A 14px=3B FONT-STYLE=3A normal=3B BACKGROU= ND-COLOR=3A =23f5f8f0=22=3E=26gt=3B =3C/FONT=3E=26gt=3B =3C/FONT=3EFrom=3A= =3C/B=3E =3CA=3EEd Anderson=3C/A=3E =3CBR=3E =3CDIV style=3D=22FONT=3A 10pt arial=3B font-size-adjust=3A none=3B font= -stretch=3A normal=22=3E=3CB=3E=3CFONT style=3D=22FONT-WEIGHT=3A normal=3B= FONT-SIZE=3A 14px=3B FONT-STYLE=3A normal=3B BACKGROUND-COLOR=3A rgb(24= 5=2C248=2C240)=22=3E=3CFONT style=3D=22FONT-WEIGHT=3A normal=3B FONT-SIZ= E=3A 14px=3B FONT-STYLE=3A normal=3B BACKGROUND-COLOR=3A =23f5f8f0=22=3E= =26gt=3B =3C/FONT=3E=26gt=3B =3C/FONT=3ETo=3A=3C/B=3E =3CA=3ERotary moto= rs in aircraft=3C/A=3E =3CBR=3E=3CBR=3E=3CBR=3E =3CDIV style=3D=22FONT=3A 10pt arial=3B font-size-adjust=3A none=3B font= -stretch=3A normal=22=3E=3CB=3E=3CFONT style=3D=22FONT-WEIGHT=3A normal=3B= FONT-SIZE=3A 14px=3B FONT-STYLE=3A normal=3B BACKGROUND-COLOR=3A rgb(24= 5=2C248=2C240)=22=3E=3CFONT style=3D=22FONT-WEIGHT=3A normal=3B FONT-SIZ= E=3A 14px=3B FONT-STYLE=3A normal=3B BACKGROUND-COLOR=3A =23f5f8f0=22=3E= =26gt=3B =3C/FONT=3E=26gt=3B =3C/FONT=3ESent=3A=3C/B=3E Saturday=2C Apri= l 11=2C 2009 7=3A31 AM=3CBR=3E =3CDIV style=3D=22FONT=3A 10pt arial=3B font-size-adjust=3A none=3B font= -stretch=3A normal=22=3E=3CB=3E=3CFONT style=3D=22FONT-WEIGHT=3A normal=3B= FONT-SIZE=3A 14px=3B FONT-STYLE=3A normal=3B BACKGROUND-COLOR=3A rgb(24= 5=2C248=2C240)=22=3E=3CFONT style=3D=22FONT-WEIGHT=3A normal=3B FONT-SIZ= E=3A 14px=3B FONT-STYLE=3A normal=3B BACKGROUND-COLOR=3A =23f5f8f0=22=3E= =26gt=3B =3C/FONT=3E=26gt=3B =3C/FONT=3ESubject=3A=3C/B=3E =5BFlyRotary=5D= Gary Casey was =5BFlyRotary=5D Re=3A Rotary Engines=3CBR=3E=3CBR=3E=3CB= R=3E =3CP=3E=3CFONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy size=3D2=3E=3CSPAN style=3D=22F= ONT-SIZE=3A 10pt=3B COLOR=3A navy=3B FONT-FAMILY=3A Arial=22=3E=3CFONT s= tyle=3D=22FONT-WEIGHT=3A normal=3B FONT-SIZE=3A 14px=3B FONT-STYLE=3A no= rmal=3B BACKGROUND-COLOR=3A rgb(245=2C248=2C240)=22=3E=3CFONT style=3D=22= FONT-WEIGHT=3A normal=3B FONT-SIZE=3A 14px=3B FONT-STYLE=3A normal=3B BA= CKGROUND-COLOR=3A =23f5f8f0=22=3E=26gt=3B =3C/FONT=3E=26gt=3B =3C/FONT=3E= Good analysis and logic=2C Gary=2E=3C/SPAN=3E=3C/FONT=3E=3C/P=3E =3CP=3E=3CFONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy size=3D2=3E=3CSPAN style=3D=22F= ONT-SIZE=3A 10pt=3B COLOR=3A navy=3B FONT-FAMILY=3A Arial=22=3E=26nbsp=3B= =3C/SPAN=3E=3C/FONT=3E=3C/P=3E =3CP=3E=3CFONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy size=3D2=3E=3CSPAN style=3D=22F= ONT-SIZE=3A 10pt=3B COLOR=3A navy=3B FONT-FAMILY=3A Arial=22=3E=3CFONT s= tyle=3D=22FONT-WEIGHT=3A normal=3B FONT-SIZE=3A 14px=3B FONT-STYLE=3A no= rmal=3B BACKGROUND-COLOR=3A rgb(245=2C248=2C240)=22=3E=3CFONT style=3D=22= FONT-WEIGHT=3A normal=3B FONT-SIZE=3A 14px=3B FONT-STYLE=3A normal=3B BA= CKGROUND-COLOR=3A =23f5f8f0=22=3E=26gt=3B =3C/FONT=3E=26gt=3B =3C/FONT=3E= You=92d make a good addition to the =93rotary community=94=2E=26nbsp=3B = I have noticed over the 10 years I have been flying my rotary powered RV= -6A that the problems have decreased considerably=2C the success rate an= d completion rate has gone up and first flights are now occurring withou= t significant problems =96 even cooling is OK =7B=3A=26gt=3B)=2E=26nbsp=3B= I believe most of this improvement can be attributed to folks sharing t= heir knowledge=2C problems and solutions with others - such as on this l= ist=2E=26nbsp=3B =3C/SPAN=3E=3C/FONT=3E=3C/P=3E =3CP=3E=3CFONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy size=3D2=3E=3CSPAN style=3D=22F= ONT-SIZE=3A 10pt=3B COLOR=3A navy=3B FONT-FAMILY=3A Arial=22=3E=26nbsp=3B= =3C/SPAN=3E=3C/FONT=3E=3C/P=3E =3CP=3E=3CFONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy size=3D2=3E=3CSPAN style=3D=22F= ONT-SIZE=3A 10pt=3B COLOR=3A navy=3B FONT-FAMILY=3A Arial=22=3E=3CFONT s= tyle=3D=22FONT-WEIGHT=3A normal=3B FONT-SIZE=3A 14px=3B FONT-STYLE=3A no= rmal=3B BACKGROUND-COLOR=3A rgb(245=2C248=2C240)=22=3E=3CFONT style=3D=22= FONT-WEIGHT=3A normal=3B FONT-SIZE=3A 14px=3B FONT-STYLE=3A normal=3B BA= CKGROUND-COLOR=3A =23f5f8f0=22=3E=26gt=3B =3C/FONT=3E=26gt=3B =3C/FONT=3E= I know that fewer parts count is often touted as one of the rotary benef= it =96 and while it is true that the part count is lower=2C the most sig= nificant thing (in my opinion) is not only does the lower part count hel= p reliability (if it is not there =96 it can not break)=2C but if you lo= ok a the design of the eccentric shaft (for example) you notice the abse= nce of the jogs in a typical crankshaft and their stress points=2E=26nbs= p=3B The thing is over 3=94 in diameter at some points and does not have= the same inertia loads born by a piston crankshaft=2E=26nbsp=3B The par= ts that are there are of very robust design=2E=26nbsp=3B Finally=2C the = rotary is (I believe) more tolerant of damage and tends to fail =93gradu= ally and gracefully=94=2C it can take a licking and keep on ticking as t= he old saying goes=2E=26nbsp=3B Only extended time and numbers will prov= ide the true MTBF for the rotary=2C but I believe it looks very promisin= g=2E=3C/SPAN=3E=3C/FONT=3E=3C/P=3E =3CP=3E=3CFONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy size=3D2=3E=3CSPAN style=3D=22F= ONT-SIZE=3A 10pt=3B COLOR=3A navy=3B FONT-FAMILY=3A Arial=22=3E=26nbsp=3B= =3C/SPAN=3E=3C/FONT=3E=3C/P=3E =3CP=3E=3CFONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy size=3D2=3E=3CSPAN style=3D=22F= ONT-SIZE=3A 10pt=3B COLOR=3A navy=3B FONT-FAMILY=3A Arial=22=3E=3CFONT s= tyle=3D=22FONT-WEIGHT=3A normal=3B FONT-SIZE=3A 14px=3B FONT-STYLE=3A no= rmal=3B BACKGROUND-COLOR=3A rgb(245=2C248=2C240)=22=3E=3CFONT style=3D=22= FONT-WEIGHT=3A normal=3B FONT-SIZE=3A 14px=3B FONT-STYLE=3A normal=3B BA= CKGROUND-COLOR=3A =23f5f8f0=22=3E=26gt=3B =3C/FONT=3E=26gt=3B =3C/FONT=3E= Failure of rotary engines are extremely rare=2C but unfortunately=2C as = with many alternative engine installations=2C auxiliary subsystems such = as fuel and ignition frequently being one-off designs have been the caus= e of most failures =96 with probably fuel the prime culprit=2E=26nbsp=3B= The good news is that for some platforms (such as the RVs) we have pret= ty much established what will make an installation successful=2E=26nbsp=3B= The Canard crowd is fast approaching that status with their somewhat mo= re challenging cooling requirements being over come=2E=3C/SPAN=3E=3C/FON= T=3E=3C/P=3E =3CP=3E=3CFONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy size=3D2=3E=3CSPAN style=3D=22F= ONT-SIZE=3A 10pt=3B COLOR=3A navy=3B FONT-FAMILY=3A Arial=22=3E=26nbsp=3B= =3C/SPAN=3E=3C/FONT=3E=3C/P=3E =3CP=3E=3CFONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy size=3D2=3E=3CSPAN style=3D=22F= ONT-SIZE=3A 10pt=3B COLOR=3A navy=3B FONT-FAMILY=3A Arial=22=3E=3CFONT s= tyle=3D=22FONT-WEIGHT=3A normal=3B FONT-SIZE=3A 14px=3B FONT-STYLE=3A no= rmal=3B BACKGROUND-COLOR=3A rgb(245=2C248=2C240)=22=3E=3CFONT style=3D=22= FONT-WEIGHT=3A normal=3B FONT-SIZE=3A 14px=3B FONT-STYLE=3A normal=3B BA= CKGROUND-COLOR=3A =23f5f8f0=22=3E=26gt=3B =3C/FONT=3E=26gt=3B =3C/FONT=3E= =26nbsp=3B Having lost a rotor during flight due to putting in high comp= ression rotors with worn apex seal slots worn beyond specs (found this o= ut later =96 my fault for not being aware of this spec limit and checkin= g it) which led to apex seal failure and consequence lost of most of the= power from one rotor=2C I was still able to maintain 6500 MSL at WOT an= d fuel mixture knob to full rich =96 flowing 14=2E5 GPH =96 a lot of it = undoubtedly =26nbsp=3Bbeing blown through the disabled rotor=2E=26nbsp=3B= Flew it back 60 miles to a suitable runway and made a non-eventful land= ing=2E=26nbsp=3B=26nbsp=3B There was a small increase in vibration due t= o the power strokes no longer being balanced=2C but nothing bad and you = could still read the needles on the gauges=2E=26nbsp=3B Other folks have= had FOD damage to a rotor and also make it to a safe landing=2E=26nbsp=3B= Two folks lost cooling (one loss of coolant fluid =2C one lost of water= pump) and while they did cook the engines=2C both made it back to a saf= e landing=2E=26nbsp=3B So all things considered=2C I think the rotary co= ntinues to show that if the installation is designed properly=2C it make= s a very viable and reliable aircraft power plant=2E=3C/SPAN=3E=3C/FONT=3E= =3C/P=3E =3CP=3E=3CFONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy size=3D2=3E=3CSPAN style=3D=22F= ONT-SIZE=3A 10pt=3B COLOR=3A navy=3B FONT-FAMILY=3A Arial=22=3E=26nbsp=3B= =3C/SPAN=3E=3C/FONT=3E=3C/P=3E =3CP=3E=3CFONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy size=3D2=3E=3CSPAN style=3D=22F= ONT-SIZE=3A 10pt=3B COLOR=3A navy=3B FONT-FAMILY=3A Arial=22=3E=3CFONT s= tyle=3D=22FONT-WEIGHT=3A normal=3B FONT-SIZE=3A 14px=3B FONT-STYLE=3A no= rmal=3B BACKGROUND-COLOR=3A rgb(245=2C248=2C240)=22=3E=3CFONT style=3D=22= FONT-WEIGHT=3A normal=3B FONT-SIZE=3A 14px=3B FONT-STYLE=3A normal=3B BA= CKGROUND-COLOR=3A =23f5f8f0=22=3E=26gt=3B =3C/FONT=3E=26gt=3B =3C/FONT=3E= Failure of rotary engines in aircraft are extremely rare=2C but unfortun= ately=2C as with many alternative engine installations=2C auxiliary subs= ystems such as fuel and ignition frequently being one-off designs - have= been the cause of most failures=2E=26nbsp=3B The good news is that for = some platforms (such as the RVs) we have pretty much established what wi= ll make an installation successful=2E=26nbsp=3B The Canard crowd is fast= approaching that status with their somewhat more challenging cooling re= quirements being over come=2E=3C/SPAN=3E=3C/FONT=3E=3C/P=3E =3CP=3E=3CFONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy size=3D2=3E=3CSPAN style=3D=22F= ONT-SIZE=3A 10pt=3B COLOR=3A navy=3B FONT-FAMILY=3A Arial=22=3E=26nbsp=3B= =3C/SPAN=3E=3C/FONT=3E=3C/P=3E =3CP=3E=3CFONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy size=3D2=3E=3CSPAN style=3D=22F= ONT-SIZE=3A 10pt=3B COLOR=3A navy=3B FONT-FAMILY=3A Arial=22=3E=3CFONT s= tyle=3D=22FONT-WEIGHT=3A normal=3B FONT-SIZE=3A 14px=3B FONT-STYLE=3A no= rmal=3B BACKGROUND-COLOR=3A rgb(245=2C248=2C240)=22=3E=3CFONT style=3D=22= FONT-WEIGHT=3A normal=3B FONT-SIZE=3A 14px=3B FONT-STYLE=3A normal=3B BA= CKGROUND-COLOR=3A =23f5f8f0=22=3E=26gt=3B =3C/FONT=3E=26gt=3B =3C/FONT=3E= My rotary installation cost me =246500 back in 1996=2C the primary cost = being a rebuilt engine =242000 and the PSRU =242900=2E=26nbsp=3B I have = since purchased a 1991 turbo block engine from Japan for =24900 and rebu= ilt it myself for another =242200=2E =26nbsp=3BMy radiators (GM evaporat= or cores) cost =245=2E00 from the junk yard and another =2450=2E00 each = for having the bungs welded on=2E=26nbsp=3B So depending on how much you= buy and how much you build the price can vary considerably=2E=26nbsp=3B= Today=2C I would say it would take a minimum of around =248000 and more= nominally around =2410000 for a complete rotary installation in an RV =96= some folks could do it for less=2C some for more=2E=3C/SPAN=3E=3C/FONT=3E= =3C/P=3E =3CP=3E=3CFONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy size=3D2=3E=3CSPAN style=3D=22F= ONT-SIZE=3A 10pt=3B COLOR=3A navy=3B FONT-FAMILY=3A Arial=22=3E=26nbsp=3B= =3C/SPAN=3E=3C/FONT=3E=3C/P=3E =3CP=3E=3CFONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy size=3D2=3E=3CSPAN style=3D=22F= ONT-SIZE=3A 10pt=3B COLOR=3A navy=3B FONT-FAMILY=3A Arial=22=3E=3CFONT s= tyle=3D=22FONT-WEIGHT=3A normal=3B FONT-SIZE=3A 14px=3B FONT-STYLE=3A no= rmal=3B BACKGROUND-COLOR=3A rgb(245=2C248=2C240)=22=3E=3CFONT style=3D=22= FONT-WEIGHT=3A normal=3B FONT-SIZE=3A 14px=3B FONT-STYLE=3A normal=3B BA= CKGROUND-COLOR=3A =23f5f8f0=22=3E=26gt=3B =3C/FONT=3E=26gt=3B =3C/FONT=3E= But=2C regardless of the technical merit (or not) in someone=92s mind=2C= the crucial thing (in my opinion) is you need to address two personal f= actors=3A=3C/SPAN=3E=3C/FONT=3E=3C/P=3E =3CP=3E=3CFONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy size=3D2=3E=3CSPAN style=3D=22F= ONT-SIZE=3A 10pt=3B COLOR=3A navy=3B FONT-FAMILY=3A Arial=22=3E=26nbsp=3B= =3C/SPAN=3E=3C/FONT=3E=3C/P=3E =3CP=3E=3CFONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy size=3D2=3E=3CSPAN style=3D=22F= ONT-SIZE=3A 10pt=3B COLOR=3A navy=3B FONT-FAMILY=3A Arial=22=3E=3CFONT s= tyle=3D=22FONT-WEIGHT=3A normal=3B FONT-SIZE=3A 14px=3B FONT-STYLE=3A no= rmal=3B BACKGROUND-COLOR=3A rgb(245=2C248=2C240)=22=3E=3CFONT style=3D=22= FONT-WEIGHT=3A normal=3B FONT-SIZE=3A 14px=3B FONT-STYLE=3A normal=3B BA= CKGROUND-COLOR=3A =23f5f8f0=22=3E=26gt=3B =3C/FONT=3E=26gt=3B =3C/FONT=3E= 1=2E=26nbsp=3B What is your risk tolerance=3F=26nbsp=3B It doesn=92t rea= lly matter how sexy some =93exotic=94 engine installation may seem =96 i= f you are not comfortable flying behind (or in front) of it=2C then it c= ertainly does not =26nbsp=3Bmakes sense to go that route=2E=26nbsp=3B Af= ter all=2C this is supposed to have an element of fun and enjoyment to i= t=2E=3C/SPAN=3E=3C/FONT=3E=3C/P=3E =3CP=3E=3CFONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy size=3D2=3E=3CSPAN style=3D=22F= ONT-SIZE=3A 10pt=3B COLOR=3A navy=3B FONT-FAMILY=3A Arial=22=3E=26nbsp=3B= =3C/SPAN=3E=3C/FONT=3E=3C/P=3E =3CP=3E=3CFONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy size=3D2=3E=3CSPAN style=3D=22F= ONT-SIZE=3A 10pt=3B COLOR=3A navy=3B FONT-FAMILY=3A Arial=22=3E=3CFONT s= tyle=3D=22FONT-WEIGHT=3A normal=3B FONT-SIZE=3A 14px=3B FONT-STYLE=3A no= rmal=3B BACKGROUND-COLOR=3A rgb(245=2C248=2C240)=22=3E=3CFONT style=3D=22= FONT-WEIGHT=3A normal=3B FONT-SIZE=3A 14px=3B FONT-STYLE=3A normal=3B BA= CKGROUND-COLOR=3A =23f5f8f0=22=3E=26gt=3B =3C/FONT=3E=26gt=3B =3C/FONT=3E= 2=2E=26nbsp=3B What is your knowledge=2C experience and background (and = you don=92t have to be an engineer) and do you feel comfortable with the= level of involvement needed=2E=3C/SPAN=3E=3C/FONT=3E=3C/P=3E =3CP=3E=3CFONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy size=3D2=3E=3CSPAN style=3D=22F= ONT-SIZE=3A 10pt=3B COLOR=3A navy=3B FONT-FAMILY=3A Arial=22=3E=26nbsp=3B= =3C/SPAN=3E=3C/FONT=3E=3C/P=3E =3CP=3E=3CFONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy size=3D2=3E=3CSPAN style=3D=22F= ONT-SIZE=3A 10pt=3B COLOR=3A navy=3B FONT-FAMILY=3A Arial=22=3E=3CFONT s= tyle=3D=22FONT-WEIGHT=3A normal=3B FONT-SIZE=3A 14px=3B FONT-STYLE=3A no= rmal=3B BACKGROUND-COLOR=3A rgb(245=2C248=2C240)=22=3E=3CFONT style=3D=22= FONT-WEIGHT=3A normal=3B FONT-SIZE=3A 14px=3B FONT-STYLE=3A normal=3B BA= CKGROUND-COLOR=3A =23f5f8f0=22=3E=26gt=3B =3C/FONT=3E=26gt=3B =3C/FONT=3E= So hope you continue to contribute to expanding our knowledge and unders= tanding of the rotary in its application to power plant for aircraft=2E=3C= /SPAN=3E=3C/FONT=3E=3C/P=3E =3CP=3E=3CFONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy size=3D2=3E=3CSPAN style=3D=22F= ONT-SIZE=3A 10pt=3B COLOR=3A navy=3B FONT-FAMILY=3A Arial=22=3E=26nbsp=3B= =3C/SPAN=3E=3C/FONT=3E=3C/P=3E =3CP=3E=3CFONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy size=3D2=3E=3CSPAN style=3D=22F= ONT-SIZE=3A 10pt=3B COLOR=3A navy=3B FONT-FAMILY=3A Arial=22=3E=26nbsp=3B= =3C/SPAN=3E=3C/FONT=3E=3C/P=3E =3CP=3E=3CFONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy size=3D2=3E=3CSPAN style=3D=22F= ONT-SIZE=3A 10pt=3B COLOR=3A navy=3B FONT-FAMILY=3A Arial=22=3E=3CFONT s= tyle=3D=22FONT-WEIGHT=3A normal=3B FONT-SIZE=3A 14px=3B FONT-STYLE=3A no= rmal=3B BACKGROUND-COLOR=3A rgb(245=2C248=2C240)=22=3E=3CFONT style=3D=22= FONT-WEIGHT=3A normal=3B FONT-SIZE=3A 14px=3B FONT-STYLE=3A normal=3B BA= CKGROUND-COLOR=3A =23f5f8f0=22=3E=26gt=3B =3C/FONT=3E=26gt=3B =3C/FONT=3E= Best Regards=3C/SPAN=3E=3C/FONT=3E=3C/P=3E =3CP=3E=3CFONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy size=3D2=3E=3CSPAN style=3D=22F= ONT-SIZE=3A 10pt=3B COLOR=3A navy=3B FONT-FAMILY=3A Arial=22=3E=26nbsp=3B= =3C/SPAN=3E=3C/FONT=3E=3C/P=3E =3CP=3E=3CFONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy size=3D2=3E=3CSPAN style=3D=22F= ONT-SIZE=3A 10pt=3B COLOR=3A navy=3B FONT-FAMILY=3A Arial=22=3E=3CFONT s= tyle=3D=22FONT-WEIGHT=3A normal=3B FONT-SIZE=3A 14px=3B FONT-STYLE=3A no= rmal=3B BACKGROUND-COLOR=3A rgb(245=2C248=2C240)=22=3E=3CFONT style=3D=22= FONT-WEIGHT=3A normal=3B FONT-SIZE=3A 14px=3B FONT-STYLE=3A normal=3B BA= CKGROUND-COLOR=3A =23f5f8f0=22=3E=26gt=3B =3C/FONT=3E=26gt=3B =3C/FONT=3E= 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ial=22=3E=3C/SPAN=3E=3C/FONT=3E=3C/P=3E=3CBR=3E =3CDIV style=3D=22TEXT-ALIGN=3A center=22 align=3Dcenter=3E=3CFONT face=3D= =22Times New Roman=22 size=3D3=3E=3CSPAN style=3D=22FONT-SIZE=3A 12pt=22= =3E =3CHR align=3Dcenter width=3D=22100=25=22 SIZE=3D2=3E =3C/SPAN=3E=3C/FONT=3E=3CBR=3E =3CP=3E=3CB=3E=3CFONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2=3E=3CSPAN style=3D=22FONT-W= EIGHT=3A bold=3B FONT-SIZE=3A 10pt=3B FONT-FAMILY=3A Tahoma=22=3E=3CFONT= style=3D=22FONT-WEIGHT=3A normal=3B FONT-SIZE=3A 14px=3B FONT-STYLE=3A = normal=3B BACKGROUND-COLOR=3A rgb(245=2C248=2C240)=22=3E=3CFONT style=3D= =22FONT-WEIGHT=3A normal=3B FONT-SIZE=3A 14px=3B FONT-STYLE=3A normal=3B= BACKGROUND-COLOR=3A =23f5f8f0=22=3E=26gt=3B =3C/FONT=3E=26gt=3B =3C/FON= T=3EFrom=3A=3C/SPAN=3E=3C/FONT=3E=3C/B=3E=3CFONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2=3E= =3CSPAN style=3D=22FONT-SIZE=3A 10pt=3B FONT-FAMILY=3A Tahoma=22=3E Rota= ry motors in aircraft =5Bmailto=3A=3CA=3Eflyrotary=40lancaironline=2Enet= =3C/A=3E=5D =3CB=3E=3CSPAN style=3D=22FONT-WEIGHT=3A bold=22=3EOn Behalf= Of =3C/SPAN=3E=3C/B=3EGary Casey=3CBR=3E=3CB=3E=3CSPAN style=3D=22FONT-= WEIGHT=3A bold=22=3E=3CFONT style=3D=22FONT-WEIGHT=3A normal=3B FONT-SIZ= E=3A 14px=3B FONT-STYLE=3A normal=3B BACKGROUND-COLOR=3A rgb(245=2C248=2C= 240)=22=3E=3CFONT style=3D=22FONT-WEIGHT=3A normal=3B FONT-SIZE=3A 14px=3B= FONT-STYLE=3A normal=3B BACKGROUND-COLOR=3A =23f5f8f0=22=3E=26gt=3B =3C= /FONT=3E=26gt=3B =3C/FONT=3ESent=3A=3C/SPAN=3E=3C/B=3E Saturday=2C April= 11=2C 2009 8=3A36 AM=3CBR=3E=3CB=3E=3CSPAN style=3D=22FONT-WEIGHT=3A bo= ld=22=3E=3CFONT style=3D=22FONT-WEIGHT=3A normal=3B FONT-SIZE=3A 14px=3B= FONT-STYLE=3A normal=3B BACKGROUND-COLOR=3A rgb(245=2C248=2C240)=22=3E=3C= FONT style=3D=22FONT-WEIGHT=3A normal=3B FONT-SIZE=3A 14px=3B FONT-STYLE= =3A normal=3B BACKGROUND-COLOR=3A =23f5f8f0=22=3E=26gt=3B =3C/FONT=3E=26= gt=3B =3C/FONT=3ETo=3A=3C/SPAN=3E=3C/B=3E Rotary motors in aircraft=3CBR= =3E=3CB=3E=3CSPAN style=3D=22FONT-WEIGHT=3A bold=22=3E=3CFONT style=3D=22= FONT-WEIGHT=3A normal=3B FONT-SIZE=3A 14px=3B FONT-STYLE=3A normal=3B BA= CKGROUND-COLOR=3A rgb(245=2C248=2C240)=22=3E=3CFONT style=3D=22FONT-WEIG= HT=3A normal=3B FONT-SIZE=3A 14px=3B FONT-STYLE=3A normal=3B BACKGROUND-= COLOR=3A =23f5f8f0=22=3E=26gt=3B =3C/FONT=3E=26gt=3B =3C/FONT=3ESubject=3A= =3C/SPAN=3E=3C/B=3E =5BFlyRotary=5D Re=3A Rotary Engines=3C/SPAN=3E=3C/F= ONT=3E=3C/P=3E=3CBR=3E =3CP=3E=3CFONT face=3D=22Times New Roman=22 size=3D3=3E=3CSPAN style=3D=22= FONT-SIZE=3A 12pt=22=3E=26nbsp=3B=3C/SPAN=3E=3C/FONT=3E=3C/P=3E =3CP=3E=3CFONT face=3D=22Times New Roman=22 size=3D3=3E=3CSPAN style=3D=22= FONT-SIZE=3A 12pt=22=3E=3CFONT style=3D=22FONT-WEIGHT=3A normal=3B FONT-= SIZE=3A 14px=3B FONT-STYLE=3A normal=3B BACKGROUND-COLOR=3A rgb(245=2C24= 8=2C240)=22=3E=3CFONT style=3D=22FONT-WEIGHT=3A normal=3B FONT-SIZE=3A 1= 4px=3B FONT-STYLE=3A normal=3B BACKGROUND-COLOR=3A =23f5f8f0=22=3E=26gt=3B= =3C/FONT=3E=26gt=3B =3C/FONT=3EJust to add a few more comments and answ= ers to the several excellent comments posted=3A=3C/SPAN=3E=3C/FONT=3E=3C= /P=3E=3CBR=3E =3CP=3E=3CFONT face=3D=22Times New Roman=22 size=3D3=3E=3CSPAN style=3D=22= FONT-SIZE=3A 12pt=22=3E=26nbsp=3B=3C/SPAN=3E=3C/FONT=3E=3C/P=3E=3CBR=3E =3CP=3E=3CFONT face=3D=22Times New Roman=22 size=3D3=3E=3CSPAN style=3D=22= FONT-SIZE=3A 12pt=22=3E=3CFONT style=3D=22FONT-WEIGHT=3A normal=3B FONT-= SIZE=3A 14px=3B FONT-STYLE=3A normal=3B BACKGROUND-COLOR=3A rgb(245=2C24= 8=2C240)=22=3E=3CFONT style=3D=22FONT-WEIGHT=3A normal=3B FONT-SIZE=3A 1= 4px=3B FONT-STYLE=3A normal=3B BACKGROUND-COLOR=3A =23f5f8f0=22=3E=26gt=3B= =3C/FONT=3E=26gt=3B =3C/FONT=3EHow many parts does it take to make a ro= tary rotate=3F =26nbsp=3BWell=2C =22parts aren=27t parts=22 in this case= =2E =26nbsp=3BMark was right in that there are maybe 4 =22major=22 compo= nents=2C but you have to define major=2E =26nbsp=3BA piston engine certa= inly has far more major parts=2E =26nbsp=3BIs a valve a =22major=22 part= =3F =26nbsp=3BI think so=2E =26nbsp=3BIs a rotor corner button a major p= art=3F =26nbsp=3BNot sure=2C but probably not=2E =26nbsp=3BIs each plane= t gear in the PSRU a major part=3F =26nbsp=3BI say yes=2C and the PSRU i= s an integral part of the rotary engine=2E =26nbsp=3BAs someone correctl= y pointed out=2C it=27s not how many parts=2C but the reliability of the= total system that counts=2E =26nbsp=3BJust looking at the history of th= e rotary (which=2C from the implication of another post) it=27s not that= good=2C but I don=27t think it has anything to do with reliability of t= he concept=2E =26nbsp=3BIt=27s more to do with the experimental nature o= f the builds and installations=2E =26nbsp=3BMy original point=2C perhaps= not well expressed is that to say there are just 4 parts is an oversimp= lification=2E =26nbsp=3BBut let=27s face it=2C to put in an engine that = has had many thousands of identical predecessors is less =22experimental= =22 than one that hasn=27t=2E=2E=3C/SPAN=3E=3C/FONT=3E=3C/P=3E=3CBR=3E =3CP=3E=3CFONT face=3D=22Times New Roman=22 size=3D3=3E=3CSPAN style=3D=22= FONT-SIZE=3A 12pt=22=3E=26nbsp=3B=3C/SPAN=3E=3C/FONT=3E=3C/P=3E=3CBR=3E =3CP=3E=3CFONT face=3D=22Times New Roman=22 size=3D3=3E=3CSPAN style=3D=22= FONT-SIZE=3A 12pt=22=3E=3CFONT style=3D=22FONT-WEIGHT=3A normal=3B FONT-= SIZE=3A 14px=3B FONT-STYLE=3A normal=3B BACKGROUND-COLOR=3A rgb(245=2C24= 8=2C240)=22=3E=3CFONT style=3D=22FONT-WEIGHT=3A normal=3B FONT-SIZE=3A 1= 4px=3B FONT-STYLE=3A normal=3B BACKGROUND-COLOR=3A =23f5f8f0=22=3E=26gt=3B= =3C/FONT=3E=26gt=3B =3C/FONT=3EAre we ES drivers more conservative=3F =26= nbsp=3BProbably so=2C since the ES is probably one of the experimentals = most similar to production aircraft=2C and not just because the Columbia= (can=27t force myself to say Cezzna =3A-) was a derivative=2E =26nbsp=3B= Therefore=2C it tends to attract conservative builders and owners=2E =26= nbsp=3BNot surprising then that almost all ES=27s have traditional power= plants=2C with the most excellent exception of Mark=2E =26nbsp=3BWhile t= here may be more=2C I know of only two off-airport landings caused by en= gine failures in the ES in almost 20 years of experience=2E =26nbsp=3BOn= e was caused by fuel starvation right after takeoff (fatal) and one was = caused by a PSRU failure in an auto engine conversion=2E =26nbsp=3BSo ou= r old-fashioned conservative nature has served us pretty well=2E=3C/SPAN= =3E=3C/FONT=3E=3C/P=3E=3CBR=3E =3CP=3E=3CFONT face=3D=22Times New Roman=22 size=3D3=3E=3CSPAN style=3D=22= FONT-SIZE=3A 12pt=22=3E=26nbsp=3B=3C/SPAN=3E=3C/FONT=3E=3C/P=3E=3CBR=3E =3CP=3E=3CFONT face=3D=22Times New Roman=22 size=3D3=3E=3CSPAN style=3D=22= FONT-SIZE=3A 12pt=22=3E=3CFONT style=3D=22FONT-WEIGHT=3A normal=3B FONT-= SIZE=3A 14px=3B FONT-STYLE=3A normal=3B BACKGROUND-COLOR=3A rgb(245=2C24= 8=2C240)=22=3E=3CFONT style=3D=22FONT-WEIGHT=3A normal=3B FONT-SIZE=3A 1= 4px=3B FONT-STYLE=3A normal=3B BACKGROUND-COLOR=3A =23f5f8f0=22=3E=26gt=3B= =3C/FONT=3E=26gt=3B =3C/FONT=3EYes=2C I was assuming that the rotary ha= d electronic fuel injection and ignition=2C but that by itself doesn=27t= change the inherent fuel efficiency of the engine=2E =26nbsp=3BDirect i= njection does have a potential to improve BSFC because the fuel charge c= an be stratified=2E =26nbsp=3BIt will probably decrease available power=2C= though=2E =26nbsp=3BI think the best rotary will be 5=25 less efficient= than the =22best=22 piston engine(same refinements added to each)=2E =26= nbsp=3BBut I stated that as a simple disadvantage - as Mark pointed out=2C= it isn=27t that simple=2E =26nbsp=3BThe rotary already comes configured= to run on auto gas=2E =26nbsp=3BThe piston engine can also be so config= ured=2C but the compression ratio reduction would reduce its BSFC and ma= ybe durability advantage=2E =26nbsp=3BThe total operating cost is certai= nly significantly less if auto gas can always be used to refuel=2E =26nb= sp=3BI assumed in my assessment that it will only be available 50=25 of = the time=2E =26nbsp=3BThe real disadvantage=2C which I failed to state=2C= is that the extra fuel required for a given mission might be 5 or 10=25= higher and that negated the weight advantage=2C if only for long-range = flights=2E=3C/SPAN=3E=3C/FONT=3E=3C/P=3E=3CBR=3E =3CP=3E=3CFONT face=3D=22Times New Roman=22 size=3D3=3E=3CSPAN style=3D=22= FONT-SIZE=3A 12pt=22=3E=26nbsp=3B=3C/SPAN=3E=3C/FONT=3E=3C/P=3E=3CBR=3E =3CP=3E=3CFONT face=3D=22Times New Roman=22 size=3D3=3E=3CSPAN style=3D=22= FONT-SIZE=3A 12pt=22=3E=3CFONT style=3D=22FONT-WEIGHT=3A normal=3B FONT-= SIZE=3A 14px=3B FONT-STYLE=3A normal=3B BACKGROUND-COLOR=3A rgb(245=2C24= 8=2C240)=22=3E=3CFONT style=3D=22FONT-WEIGHT=3A normal=3B FONT-SIZE=3A 1= 4px=3B FONT-STYLE=3A normal=3B BACKGROUND-COLOR=3A =23f5f8f0=22=3E=26gt=3B= =3C/FONT=3E=26gt=3B =3C/FONT=3EIs the engine less expensive=3F =26nbsp=3B= I did a thorough analysis of a direct-drive recip auto engine installati= on and my conclusion was that if the auto engine were equivalent in reli= ability to the aircraft engine it would likely cost just as much=2E =26n= bsp=3BIs the same true of the rotary=3F =26nbsp=3BI=27m not sure=2C but = you have to consider the total cost=2C including engineering of all the = parts in the system=2C not just the core engine=2E =26nbsp=3BI would lov= e to do a rotary installation=2C but I don=27t think I could justify it = by cost reduction=2E=3C/SPAN=3E=3C/FONT=3E=3C/P=3E=3CBR=3E =3CP=3E=3CFONT face=3D=22Times New Roman=22 size=3D3=3E=3CSPAN style=3D=22= FONT-SIZE=3A 12pt=22=3E=26nbsp=3B=3C/SPAN=3E=3C/FONT=3E=3C/P=3E=3CBR=3E =3CP=3E=3CFONT face=3D=22Times New Roman=22 size=3D3=3E=3CSPAN style=3D=22= FONT-SIZE=3A 12pt=22=3E=3CFONT style=3D=22FONT-WEIGHT=3A normal=3B FONT-= SIZE=3A 14px=3B FONT-STYLE=3A normal=3B BACKGROUND-COLOR=3A rgb(245=2C24= 8=2C240)=22=3E=3CFONT style=3D=22FONT-WEIGHT=3A normal=3B FONT-SIZE=3A 1= 4px=3B FONT-STYLE=3A normal=3B BACKGROUND-COLOR=3A =23f5f8f0=22=3E=26gt=3B= =3C/FONT=3E=26gt=3B =3C/FONT=3EIt wasn=27t mentioned in the posts=2C bu= t some have claimed the rotary is =22smoother=22 than a recip=2E =26nbsp= =3BI at first resisted that notion=2E =26nbsp=3BSure=2C any rotary given= sufficient counterbalancing=2C is perfectly balanced=2E =26nbsp=3BA 4-c= ylinder opposed recip is not - there is a significant secondary couple=2E= =26nbsp=3BThe 6-cylinder opposed engine is perfectly balanced=2C but on= ly for PRIMARY and SECONDARY forces and couples - higher order forces ha= ve never really been analyzed=2C although they would be very small=2E =26= nbsp=3BAnd then consider the forces within the engine that have to be re= sisted by that long=2C heavy=2C but flexible crankshaft=2E =26nbsp=3BSo = it isn=27t the mechanical balance that gives the rotary an advantage=2E = =26nbsp=3BLet=27s take a look at the the torsional pulsations=2C compari= ng the 3-rotor against the 6-cylinder=3A =26nbsp=3BA 6-cylinder engine h= as 3 power impulses per rotation=2C as does the 3-rotor=2C so they are t= he same=2C right=3F =26nbsp=3BWrong=2E =26nbsp=3BThey both incorporate 4= =22stroke=22 cycles=2C meaning that there separate and sequential intak= e=2C compression=2C power and exhaust events so that is the same for bot= h=2E =26nbsp=3BThe power event=2C which is the source of the torque impu= lse=2C=26nbsp=3Btakes 1/2 of a crank rotation for the recip=2E =26nbsp=3B= In the rotary the power event requires 1/4 of a ROTOR rotation=2C but th= e rotor rotates at 1/3 crank rotation - the result is that the power imp= ulse lasts 3/4 of a CRANK rotation=2C 50=25 longer than in a recip=2E =26= nbsp=3BTherefore=2C the torsional excitation delivered to the propeller=2C= PSRU and to the airframe is significantly less than for a recip=2E =26n= bsp=3BAnd if you analyze the actual forces imparted=2C they go down by t= he square of the rpm=2E =26nbsp=3BThe torsional vibration amplitude goes= down by a factor of 4 just because the rpm of the rotary turns about tw= ice as fast=2E =26nbsp=3BIf you=27ve skipped to the bottom of the paragr= aph=2C as you probably should have =3A-)=2C yes the rotary is =22smoothe= r=22 - a LOT smoother=2E=2E (my apologies to rotary purists=2C for simpl= icity I used the word =22crankshaft=22 for both engines)=3C/SPAN=3E=3C/F= ONT=3E=3C/P=3E=3CBR=3E =3CP=3E=3CFONT face=3D=22Times New Roman=22 size=3D3=3E=3CSPAN style=3D=22= FONT-SIZE=3A 12pt=22=3E=26nbsp=3B=3C/SPAN=3E=3C/FONT=3E=3C/P=3E=3CBR=3E =3CP=3E=3CFONT face=3D=22Times New Roman=22 size=3D3=3E=3CSPAN style=3D=22= FONT-SIZE=3A 12pt=22=3E=3CFONT style=3D=22FONT-WEIGHT=3A normal=3B FONT-= SIZE=3A 14px=3B FONT-STYLE=3A normal=3B BACKGROUND-COLOR=3A rgb(245=2C24= 8=2C240)=22=3E=3CFONT style=3D=22FONT-WEIGHT=3A normal=3B FONT-SIZE=3A 1= 4px=3B FONT-STYLE=3A normal=3B BACKGROUND-COLOR=3A =23f5f8f0=22=3E=26gt=3B= =3C/FONT=3E=26gt=3B =3C/FONT=3EBut just because you can burn auto gas s= hould you=3F =26nbsp=3BThe biggest problems with auto gas in recip aircr= aft have nothing to do with the engine=2C but with the high vapor pressu= re of the fuel - it is more prone to vapor lock=2E =26nbsp=3BThe fuel sy= stems of certified aircraft are not particularly well designed with rega= rd to vapor lock=2E =26nbsp=3B=22Fortunately=22=2C rotary engines typica= lly have no mechanical fuel pump and are forced to rely on electric pump= s=2E =26nbsp=3BFortunately because the pumps can be located at the very = bottom of the aircraft and close to the fuel tanks=2C making vapor lock = much less likely=2E =26nbsp=3BI would caution any builders to consider v= apor lock possibilities very seriously=2C much more so if you intend to = run auto gas=2E =26nbsp=3Bwhen I was going to do this I planned to put o= ne electric pump in the wing root of each wing=2C feeding the engine dir= ectly(the check valve in the non-running pump prevents back-feeding)=2E = =26nbsp=3BRedundancy was by a =22crossfeed=22 line that could connect th= e tanks together=2E=3C/SPAN=3E=3C/FONT=3E=3C/P=3E=3CBR=3E =3CP=3E=3CFONT face=3D=22Times New Roman=22 size=3D3=3E=3CSPAN style=3D=22= FONT-SIZE=3A 12pt=22=3E=26nbsp=3B=3C/SPAN=3E=3C/FONT=3E=3C/P=3E=3CBR=3E =3CP=3E=3CFONT face=3D=22Times New Roman=22 size=3D3=3E=3CSPAN style=3D=22= FONT-SIZE=3A 12pt=22=3E=3CFONT style=3D=22FONT-WEIGHT=3A normal=3B FONT-= SIZE=3A 14px=3B FONT-STYLE=3A normal=3B BACKGROUND-COLOR=3A rgb(245=2C24= 8=2C240)=22=3E=3CFONT style=3D=22FONT-WEIGHT=3A normal=3B FONT-SIZE=3A 1= 4px=3B FONT-STYLE=3A normal=3B BACKGROUND-COLOR=3A =23f5f8f0=22=3E=26gt=3B= =3C/FONT=3E=26gt=3B =3C/FONT=3EAnd thanks=2C Mark for - probably incorr= ectly - referring to me as a =22good engineer=22=2E =26nbsp=3BI=27ll hav= e to put that in my resume!=3C/SPAN=3E=3C/FONT=3E=3C/P=3E=3CBR=3E =3CP=3E=3CFONT face=3D=22Times New Roman=22 size=3D3=3E=3CSPAN style=3D=22= FONT-SIZE=3A 12pt=22=3E=26nbsp=3B=3C/SPAN=3E=3C/FONT=3E=3C/P=3E=3CBR=3E =3CP=3E=3CFONT face=3D=22Times New Roman=22 size=3D3=3E=3CSPAN style=3D=22= FONT-SIZE=3A 12pt=22=3E=3CFONT style=3D=22FONT-WEIGHT=3A normal=3B FONT-= SIZE=3A 14px=3B FONT-STYLE=3A normal=3B BACKGROUND-COLOR=3A rgb(245=2C24= 8=2C240)=22=3E=3CFONT style=3D=22FONT-WEIGHT=3A normal=3B FONT-SIZE=3A 1= 4px=3B FONT-STYLE=3A normal=3B BACKGROUND-COLOR=3A =23f5f8f0=22=3E=26gt=3B= =3C/FONT=3E=26gt=3B =3C/FONT=3EHave a good day=2C=3C/SPAN=3E=3C/FONT=3E= =3C/P=3E=3CBR=3E =3CP=3E=3CFONT face=3D=22Times New Roman=22 size=3D3=3E=3CSPAN style=3D=22= FONT-SIZE=3A 12pt=22=3E=3CFONT style=3D=22FONT-WEIGHT=3A normal=3B FONT-= SIZE=3A 14px=3B FONT-STYLE=3A normal=3B BACKGROUND-COLOR=3A rgb(245=2C24= 8=2C240)=22=3E=3CFONT style=3D=22FONT-WEIGHT=3A normal=3B FONT-SIZE=3A 1= 4px=3B FONT-STYLE=3A normal=3B BACKGROUND-COLOR=3A =23f5f8f0=22=3E=26gt=3B= =3C/FONT=3E=26gt=3B =3C/FONT=3EGary=3C/SPAN=3E=3C/FONT=3E=3C/P=3E=3CBR=3E= =3CP=3E=3CFONT face=3D=22Times New Roman=22 size=3D3=3E=3CSPAN style=3D=22= FONT-SIZE=3A 12pt=22=3E=3CFONT style=3D=22FONT-WEIGHT=3A normal=3B FONT-= SIZE=3A 14px=3B FONT-STYLE=3A normal=3B BACKGROUND-COLOR=3A rgb(245=2C24= 8=2C240)=22=3E=3CFONT style=3D=22FONT-WEIGHT=3A normal=3B FONT-SIZE=3A 1= 4px=3B FONT-STYLE=3A normal=3B BACKGROUND-COLOR=3A =23f5f8f0=22=3E=26gt=3B= =3C/FONT=3E=26gt=3B =3C/FONT=3E(do you allow us outsiders in your event= s=3F =26nbsp=3BI=27ll park well away =3A-)=3C/SPAN=3E=3C/FONT=3E=3C/P=3E= =3CBR=3E =3CP=3E=3CFONT face=3D=22Times New Roman=22 size=3D3=3E=3CSPAN style=3D=22= FONT-SIZE=3A 12pt=22=3E=26nbsp=3B=3C/SPAN=3E=3C/FONT=3E=3C/P=3E=3CBR=3E=3C= BR=3E=3CBR=3E =3CP=3E=3CFONT face=3D=22Times New Roman=22 size=3D3=3E=3CSPAN style=3D=22= FONT-SIZE=3A 12pt=22=3E=3CBR=3E=3CBR=3E=3CBR=3E=3CFONT style=3D=22FONT-W= EIGHT=3A normal=3B FONT-SIZE=3A 14px=3B FONT-STYLE=3A normal=3B BACKGROU= ND-COLOR=3A rgb(245=2C248=2C240)=22=3E=3CFONT style=3D=22FONT-WEIGHT=3A = normal=3B FONT-SIZE=3A 14px=3B FONT-STYLE=3A normal=3B BACKGROUND-COLOR=3A= =23f5f8f0=22=3E=26gt=3B =3C/FONT=3E=26gt=3B =3C/FONT=3E=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus=2C version of virus s= ignature database 3267 (20080714) =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=3CBR=3E= =3CBR=3E=3CFONT style=3D=22FONT-WEIGHT=3A normal=3B FONT-SIZE=3A 14px=3B= FONT-STYLE=3A normal=3B BACKGROUND-COLOR=3A rgb(245=2C248=2C240)=22=3E=3C= FONT style=3D=22FONT-WEIGHT=3A normal=3B FONT-SIZE=3A 14px=3B FONT-STYLE= =3A normal=3B BACKGROUND-COLOR=3A =23f5f8f0=22=3E=26gt=3B =3C/FONT=3E=26= gt=3B =3C/FONT=3EThe message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus=2E=3CBR= =3E=3CBR=3E=3CA href=3D=22http=3A//www=2Eeset=2Ecom/=22 target=3D1=3E=3C= FONT style=3D=22FONT-WEIGHT=3A normal=3B FONT-SIZE=3A 14px=3B FONT-STYLE= =3A normal=3B BACKGROUND-COLOR=3A rgb(245=2C248=2C240)=22=3E=3CFONT styl= e=3D=22FONT-WEIGHT=3A normal=3B FONT-SIZE=3A 14px=3B FONT-STYLE=3A norma= l=3B BACKGROUND-COLOR=3A =23f5f8f0=22=3E=26gt=3B =3C/FONT=3E=26gt=3B =3C= /FONT=3Ehttp=3A//www=2Eeset=2Ecom=3C/A=3E=3C/SPAN=3E=3C/FONT=3E=3C/P=3E=3C= 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