X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from fed1rmmtao104.cox.net ([68.230.241.42] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.13) with ESMTP id 3546595 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 13 Mar 2009 15:00:01 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=68.230.241.42; envelope-from=rv-4mike@cox.net Received: from fed1rmimpo03.cox.net ([70.169.32.75]) by fed1rmmtao104.cox.net (InterMail vM.7.08.02.01 201-2186-121-102-20070209) with ESMTP id <20090313185924.VKCK16134.fed1rmmtao104.cox.net@fed1rmimpo03.cox.net> for ; Fri, 13 Mar 2009 14:59:24 -0400 Received: from wills ([68.105.85.56]) by fed1rmimpo03.cox.net with bizsmtp id SizN1b0011CvZmk04izQ3P; Fri, 13 Mar 2009 14:59:24 -0400 X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.0 c=1 a=kviXuzpPAAAA:8 a=pcLIrrrKAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=7g1VtSJxAAAA:8 a=1-6qDt9wINctWVUCxdoA:9 a=2rtPmfz4QfNop_xjiDsA:7 a=vFRpysFxMAqOzdDpOHeR4gOK_6UA:4 a=XF7b4UCPwd8A:10 a=4vB-4DCPJfMA:10 a=ftFGBYpk1mUA:10 a=EzXvWhQp4_cA:10 a=Q7R51M4mdJmAqKTA:21 a=GhhgAIre-ThzSfFU:21 a=UretUmmEAAAA:8 a=ir4Mf9Q-fJQQP34F0FcA:9 a=ekoUTNdLX20jcAtd54kA:7 a=Jeo60x3oUmoZpEmji8GTymRVj8QA:4 a=AfD3MYMu9mQA:10 a=iVkDmfvjeKcA:10 X-CM-Score: 0.00 Message-ID: <002801c9a40d$d1c50550$38556944@wills> From: "Mike Wills" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: IVO Prop Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 11:59:21 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0025_01C9A3D3.2519E210" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3350 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01C9A3D3.2519E210 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks for that feedback Tracy. I think its going to be quite a while = before I do any speed runs anywhere near sea level. Hopefully my cowl configuration is not significantly worse than a stock = RV cowl drag-wise. Otherwise my RV-4 should be as clean as any other. = I'll know a lot more when I have the opportunity to test more. It did = seem like speed and RPMs were still creeping up during the one brief = full throttle run that I did. At this point it seems the airplane = matches or slightly exceeds the performance of my old RV-6A (160HP Lyc). = I have my doubts that it will approach the performance Dave Leonard = reported in the Sharpie race. I think the comfort issue for me is a combination of muffler and just = perception. My setup generates considerably more noise at full throttle = than it does at 5,000 - 5,100 but vibration levels dont seem to change = appreciably. I think I really just need to address the muffler issue and = get more comfortable with the airplane. Mike Wills RV-4 N144MW ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Tracy Crook=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 7:41 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: IVO Prop Mike, As a general rule of thumb, there will be about 1000 rpm difference = between static and top speed RPM at sea level for RV speeds (fixed pitch = prop). The last 10 - 20 mph can take a surprisingly long time. How = clean the airframe is can affect the top speed and RPM quite a bit. At = higher altitudes, max rpm falls off a bit due to falling HP. Perception of engine "comfort" depends a lot on muffler, engine mount = and prop balance. The most 'serene' flight I ever had was the 2003 Sun = 100 race with the engine humming at 6300 rpm. Everything felt just = right. The 2004 race at 7250 rpm was almost as good. The rpm = difference was due to the different drive ratios. Tracy On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 10:13 PM, Mike Wills wrote: Tracy, My RV static RPM is 5350 - 5400 with my Warnke prop which seems = pretty good. This is with a 2.17 ratio RD-1. When the prop unloads in = level flight what should I expect to see for RPM at full power? Max RPM = I've seen in level flight, full throttle, 8,000' was about 5700 - 5800 = but I may not have given things enough time to settle out. What are = people typically setting for cruise RPMs/MP? With the limited flight = testing I've done so far my engine feels pretty comfortable at around = 5,000 RPM and that has been a typical power setting for me to date. = Still getting used to the different sounds and sight picture with the = high RPMs and cheekless cowl. At higher power settings/RPM it feels "busy" - hard to describe and = it may just be a comfort factor thing that I need to get used to. Mike Wills RV-4 N144MW ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Tracy Crook=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 8:48 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: IVO Prop Yep, should have thought about pushers when I wrote that comment. = The IVO seems to work well on pushers since the stalled inner part of = the blades is in turbulent air and doesn't cost them the drag that it = does on tractors. Tractors are pretty much stuck with high priced = variable pitch stuff like MT to equal the performance of a well matched = fixed pitch prop. What is well matched? If you are running an RD-1B the static = rpm should be 5100 - 5500. With the RD-1C it should be 5900 - 6300 = rpm. If you get less than that, it isn't a well matched prop. This = also assumes that the engine is performing up to par of course. The = exact number depends on what you want to optomize, climb performance or = cruise economy. One more caveat: If you are putting it on a plane with a cruise = speed below ~ 150 MPH, the IVO also works on tractors as well. On my = RV-4 the IVO cut top speed about 15 mph. and around 10 mph from cruise = compared to a well matched fixed pitch prop. Tracy On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 12:41 AM, John Slade = wrote: >I didn't know anyone had ever had any success with an IVO. Tell = me more. What do you want to know? Its a very well engineered piece of = equipment. The CF blades are hollow and have a steel rod running to the = hub. Activating the motor via brushes twists the steel and thus twists = the blades equally. The twist change is quite visible. There were = problems with the individual blades slipping on the hub. This has been = solved by providing a knurled hub, and not selling to guys with = Lycomings. The IVO is available for rotary, subaru, Franklin 6 and other = less "pulsy" engines. After the first 15 hours or so my blades have = hardly taken any extra torque. My performance is greatly enhanced compared to the fixed pitch = Performance prop. Static with the wood prop was around 4500. With the = IVO on full fine I get closer to 5400 which gives me access to a lot = more power on take off. I've never done a "high speed" run with the IVO, = but I've had 180 kts indicated at 2000' a few times without much effort, = and without ever going to the full course setting. Another nice bonus is = that throttled back on full fine for landing, the prop acts like a = brake. Its much easier to land and stop than the fixed pitch that's = pushing you along fairly well, even at idle. I know a Velocity driver (Mike Watson) who also uses an IVO = (Franklin 6) and is very happy with it after around 5 years of use. The factory people are very easy to deal with and very helpful. The Cozy Girrrls are installing an IVO. What better = recommendation could you want? :) Regards, John Slade Turbo Rotary Cozy IV, N96PM 98.1 Hrs. Mike Wills wrote: Mike Wills RV-4 N144MW ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Slade" = To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2009 10:30 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Ground Testing The IVO electric in-flight adjustable costs around $2350. = I'm very pleased with mine. My "spare" is a $2700 fixed pitch wood prop = thats a piece of art, but doesn't work anywhere near as well. John Tracy Crook wrote: A variable pitch prop would be nice to get the best of both = worlds but it's an expensive option and $10,000 buys a lot of gas. --=20 Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html --=20 Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01C9A3D3.2519E210 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks for that feedback Tracy. I think = its going=20 to be quite a while before I do any speed runs anywhere near sea=20 level.
 
Hopefully my cowl configuration is not=20 significantly worse than a stock RV cowl drag-wise. Otherwise my RV-4 = should be=20 as clean as any other. I'll know a lot more when I have the opportunity = to test=20 more. It did seem like speed and RPMs were still creeping up during the = one=20 brief full throttle run that I did. At this point it seems the airplane = matches=20 or slightly exceeds the performance of my old RV-6A (160HP Lyc). I = have my=20 doubts that it will approach the performance Dave Leonard reported in = the=20 Sharpie race.
 
I think the comfort issue for me is a = combination=20 of muffler and just perception. My setup generates considerably more = noise at=20 full throttle than it does at 5,000 - 5,100 but vibration levels dont = seem to=20 change appreciably. I think I really just need to address the muffler = issue and=20 get more comfortable with the airplane.
 
Mike Wills
RV-4 N144MW
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Tracy=20 Crook
Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 = 7:41=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: IVO = Prop

Mike,
As a general rule of thumb, there will be = about 1000=20 rpm difference between static and top speed RPM at sea level for RV = speeds=20 (fixed pitch prop).  The last 10 - 20 mph can take a surprisingly = long=20 time.  How clean the airframe is can affect the top speed and RPM = quite a=20 bit.  At higher altitudes, max rpm falls off a bit due to falling = HP.

Perception of engine "comfort" depends a lot on muffler, = engine=20 mount and prop balance.  The most 'serene' flight I ever had was = the 2003=20 Sun 100 race with the engine humming at 6300 rpm.  Everything = felt just=20 right.  The 2004 race at 7250 rpm was almost as good.  The = rpm=20 difference was due to the different drive = ratios.

Tracy



On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 10:13 PM, Mike Wills = <rv-4mike@cox.net>=20 wrote:
Tracy,
 
 My RV static RPM is 5350 = - 5400 with=20 my Warnke prop which seems pretty good. This is with a 2.17 = ratio=20 RD-1. When the prop unloads in level flight what should I = expect to see=20 for RPM at full power? Max RPM I've seen in level flight, full = throttle,=20 8,000' was about 5700 - 5800 but I may not have given things enough = time to=20 settle out. What are people typically setting for cruise = RPMs/MP? With=20 the limited flight testing I've done so far my engine feels pretty=20 comfortable at around 5,000 RPM and that has been a typical power = setting=20 for me to date. Still getting used to the different sounds and sight = picture=20 with the high RPMs and cheekless cowl.
 
 At higher power settings/RPM = it feels=20 "busy" - hard to describe and it may just be a comfort factor thing = that I=20 need to get used to.
 
Mike Wills
RV-4 N144MW
-----=20 Original Message -----
From:=20 Tracy Crook
To:=20 Rotary = motors in=20 aircraft Sent:=20 Wednesday, March 11, 2009 8:48 AM Subject:=20 [FlyRotary] Re: IVO Prop

Yep, should have thought about pushers when I wrote = that=20 comment.  The IVO seems to work well on pushers since the = stalled=20 inner part of the blades is in turbulent air and doesn't cost them = the=20 drag that it does on tractors.  Tractors are pretty much = stuck with=20 high priced variable pitch stuff like MT to equal the performance = of a=20 well matched fixed pitch prop.

What is well matched? =    If you are running an RD-1B the static rpm should be = 5100 -=20 5500.   With the RD-1C it should be 5900 - 6300=20 rpm.    If you get less than that, it isn't a well = matched=20 prop.  This also assumes that the engine is performing up to = par of=20 course. The exact number depends on what you want to optomize, = climb=20 performance or cruise economy.

One more caveat:  If = you are=20 putting it on a plane with a cruise speed below ~ 150 MPH, the IVO = also=20 works on tractors as well.  On my RV-4 the IVO cut top speed = about 15=20 mph. and around 10 mph from cruise compared to a well matched = fixed pitch=20 prop.

Tracy


On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 12:41 AM, John = Slade <sladerj@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>I=20 didn't know anyone had ever had any success with an IVO. Tell me = more.
What do you want to know? Its a very well engineered = piece of=20 equipment. The CF blades are hollow and have a steel rod running = to the=20 hub. Activating the motor via brushes twists the steel and thus = twists=20 the blades equally. The twist change is quite visible. There = were=20 problems with the individual blades slipping on the hub. This = has been=20 solved by providing a knurled hub, and not selling to guys with=20 Lycomings. The IVO is available for rotary, subaru, Franklin 6 = and other=20 less "pulsy" engines. After the first 15 hours or so my blades = have=20 hardly taken any extra torque.

My performance is greatly = enhanced=20 compared to the fixed pitch Performance prop. Static with the = wood prop=20 was around 4500. With the IVO on full fine I get closer to 5400 = which=20 gives me access to a lot more power on take off. I've never done = a "high=20 speed" run with the IVO, but I've had 180 kts indicated at 2000' = a few=20 times without much effort, and without ever going to the full = course=20 setting. Another nice bonus is that throttled back on full fine = for=20 landing, the prop acts like a brake. Its much easier to land and = stop=20 than the fixed pitch that's pushing you along fairly well, even = at=20 idle.

I know a Velocity driver (Mike Watson) who also = uses an IVO=20 (Franklin 6) and is very happy with it after around 5 years of=20 use.

The factory people are very easy to deal with and = very=20 helpful.

The Cozy Girrrls are installing an IVO. What = better=20 recommendation could you want? :)

Regards,
John = Slade
Turbo=20 Rotary Cozy IV, N96PM
98.1 Hrs.

Mike Wills wrote:


Mike=20 Wills
RV-4 N144MW

----- Original Message ----- From: = "John=20 Slade" <sladerj@sbcglobal.net>
To: "Rotary = motors in=20 aircraft" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: = Tuesday,=20 March 10, 2009 10:30 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Ground=20 Testing


The=20 IVO electric in-flight adjustable costs around $2350. I'm = very=20 pleased with mine. My "spare" is a $2700 fixed pitch wood = prop thats=20 a piece of art, but doesn't work anywhere near as=20 well.
John

Tracy Crook wrote:
A variable pitch = prop=20 would be nice to get the best of both worlds but it's an = expensive=20 option and $10,000 buys a lot of gas.



--=20
Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and = UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.htm= l




--=20
Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and = UnSub:=20   http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.htm= l



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Homepage:=20  http://www.flyrotary.com/
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