X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from web56405.mail.re3.yahoo.com ([216.252.111.84] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.12) with SMTP id 3533983 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 09 Mar 2009 09:07:08 -0400 Received: (qmail 84977 invoked by uid 60001); 9 Mar 2009 13:07:07 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s1024; t=1236604027; bh=/HASZlNhtvE6KDLSvGluxWiAZFJvwl7VFvITuCvfQog=; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=nq930zh9T7Xa0xApSaHQn8JmOSUR0e0A20VA9J05aQh5LpVc5B3lXtl7l2opbWjwZHNWobpY9ccbfvHFmQSfgC7hr2tBtkctWDmjl1vyxn8JzFZ/fncEcG6/G1HJnrVqJS2J6MIvrlL0+vQ9mjwE59DsB8AXArp7KZBwB97kyTA= DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=0ZbU4VTpzzmk+v5GSzxKrIya/3P2pQzc/iD22z4xksUpVEFQMLBh8S10HxKZeWWzNiBpd+d7/rkzbWSGEXwpJ0MHCwNbnRICHEJ9Z1YDDJDElV4wjgVcoL0h7jFO8maeaUIOCTWBXxZNc3l7qhvb/8tkjpN/hmZU6dwMoEIQJTk=; Message-ID: <908188.84481.qm@web56405.mail.re3.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: qorOoesVM1kfthJvoKxAprjgUJb1NV4ycxL6IqEneUhTM2Q9NSG7N9L6tuRYzZmgFUVHLkzPCcAavUJwk7Cg1SKdl9yCEEpTViUi4bSTcNJ7q441KbUjyX8sGlxXZd9pVe4Gk9FDPa1oRIWlCYEZ5aVA8z5VX1jZ98rV87zMPNQel.XD0V.27o3PjYU85m6UWmX3grF3FPXfj1cMzPIF2vRgdU0fS6f43k8f Received: from [166.82.101.90] by web56405.mail.re3.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 09 Mar 2009 06:07:07 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/1277.29 YahooMailWebService/0.7.289.1 References: Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 06:07:07 -0700 (PDT) From: Jim Perdue Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Ground Testing To: Rotary motors in aircraft In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-2044075651-1236604027=:84481" --0-2044075651-1236604027=:84481 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable John/Ed,=0A=0AThanks for the sound advice. I guess there is no need to re-i= nvent the wheel, as I am not planning=C2=A0any new approaches=C2=A0in the i= nstallation. I will definitely be taking the road many others have already = gone down.=C2=A0So it's back to the books and newsgroups for a little bit o= f knowledge and some research.=0A=0AJohn, I=C2=A0tend to agree with you abo= ut the 20B. The more I think about it, the more=C2=A0I sway towards a 2 rot= or. I have been over your website more times than I can count, and will be = "stealing" a lot of your ideas when the time comes. I gave quick thought to= a turbo 13B, but am a little hesitant to add more complexity to an already= complex installation.=C2=A0However, I haven't discounted it.=C2=A0I am cur= ious to see how the Girrrls do with there installation. =C2=A0I know the re= nesis engines have hotter exhaust temps, so I'll have to look into solution= s for that. Thanks again, you bring up a lot of thought-provoking questions= . Exactly the reason for these newsgroups!!=0A=0AJim=0ACharlotte, NC=0A=0A= =0A________________________________=0AFrom: Ed Anderson =0ATo: Rotary motors in aircraft =0ASe= nt: Monday, March 9, 2009 5:24:22 AM=0ASubject: [FlyRotary] Re: Ground Test= ing=0A=0A=0AHi Jim,=0A=C2=A0=0ABeing one of the early Rotary Fliers and kno= wing no one (at the time) with a flying rotary =C2=A0and there being no suc= h e mail list as this to ask questions, I decided on extensive ground testi= ng.=C2=A0 I build a test stand that duplicated my planned FWF installation.= =C2=A0 Mounted the engine and ran it in the test stand for over 30 hours gr= ound =C2=A0run time.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Keeping in mind that so far as I knew at t= he time =E2=80=93 the rotary had not been yet proven in aircraft applicatio= n.=C2=A0 In fact, the few folks that had tried it never really achieve succ= ess even though a couple did get into the air.=0A=C2=A0=0ABut, in any case,= here is what I believe the ground test program provided me (some of the fa= ctors have now been demonstrated by many others and can be accepted with su= ch ground running.=0A=C2=A0=0A=091. Reliability and robustness of the engin= e (yes, I manage to over-heat it a couple of times =E2=80=93 once to the po= int of having to replace the stock coolant =E2=80=9CO=E2=80=9D rings)=0A=09= 2. Worked out some changes in component installation on the Firewall=0A=093= . Proved that the GM evaporator cores (used as radiators) would indeed work= =0A=094. Showed that the EFI pumps would indeed =E2=80=9Csuck=E2=80=9D fuel= up-hill at least 2 feet and once even caused a heavy duty marine type fuel= container to collapse due to the pressure differential (for got to undo th= e vent cap).=C2=A0 Note: having a EFI =E2=80=9Csuch=E2=80=9D fuel rather th= an =E2=80=9CPush=E2=80=9D fuel is not recommended.=C2=A0 The pumps should b= e =E2=80=9Cwet=E2=80=9D at all times when operating =E2=80=93 even 30-50 se= conds without fuel can damage their impeller.=0A=095. Showed that my semi = =C2=A0=E2=80=9Creturnless=E2=80=9D fuel system (1/2 pint header tank mounte= d on the firewall) worked=0A=096. Showed that my =E2=80=9CPlugs Up=E2=80=9D= orientation of the engine was indeed viable.=0A=097. Convinced my self tha= t the engine would put out sufficient power to make it a viable power plan = (although not nearly the power I got out of it later after completely redes= igning the induction system)=0A=098. Gain considerably knowledge (still lea= rning) about =C2=A0and confidence in the engine ( 500+ hours run time) and = 10 years since first flight.=0A=C2=A0=0A=C2=A0=0ANow, having said all of th= at, much of the above can be taken as proven and no need to further reinven= t the wheel.=C2=A0 If however, you are talking some new approach to some el= ement of a critical system such fuel, ignition, cooling or lubrication, the= n you might want to verify that your concept is viable on the ground rather= than in the air.=C2=A0 On the other hand, if you are pretty much following= practices that have been proven by members of this list then there is prob= ably no need for a ground test program other than what you do to prove your= installed setup =C2=A0works as planned.=0A=C2=A0=0AThe further you depart = from what has been shown to work, then the greater the need for a ground te= st phase, in my opinion.=C2=A0 Being in the air and finding out your idea i= s less than ideal is not the place to be. =0A=C2=A0=0AJust my 0.02 worth=0A= =C2=A0=0AHope this helps.=0A=C2=A0=0AEd Anderson=0ARv-6A N494BW Rotary Powe= red=0AMatthews, NC=0Aeanderson@carolina.rr.com=0Ahttp://www.andersonee.com= =0Ahttp://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html=0Ahttp://www.flyrotary.com/=0Ahttp= ://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW=0Ahttp://www.rotaryav= iation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm=0A=0A________________________________=0A= =0AFrom:Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On B= ehalf Of Jim Perdue=0ASent: Sunday, March 08, 2009 10:50 PM=0ATo: Rotary mo= tors in aircraft=0ASubject: [FlyRotary] Ground Testing=0A=C2=A0=0AHello eve= ryone. I've been reading this mailing list for a bit, and I am very impress= ed with the knowledge and experiences being shared here. It is everyone her= e who is paving the way for the rotary installations of the future. I for o= ne am very grateful.=0A=C2=A0=0AI am currently building a Cozy MKIV and I a= m seriously considering a rotary. Most likely a renesis, but possibly consi= dering a 20B. I have rebuilt a few engines in my day (piston of course). I = am far from needing an engine, but I was wondering if some of you can answe= r a question? I realize there are in-flight challenges that can only be add= ressed at that time of course, but how much can you debug/learn from ground= testing an engine? Can anyone tell me what can be acheived during ground t= esting and what cannot? Even though I am far away from a powerplant, I'd li= ke to pick up a cheap engine and start "playing" ;-)=0A=C2=A0=0AI appreciat= e any input on this subject. Thanks!=0A=C2=A0=0AJim=0ACharlotte , NC=0A=C2= =A0=0A=0A________________________________=0A=0AFrom:Mark Steitle =0ATo: Rotary motors in aircraft =0A= Sent: Sunday, March 8, 2009 9:18:55 PM=0ASubject: [FlyRotary] Re: I've got = oil pressure!=0A=0AThat's great news Chris.=C2=A0 Glad you figured out the = problem.=C2=A0 =0A=0AMark S.=0AOn Sun, Mar 8, 2009 at 7:23 PM, The Mallorys= wrote:=0AI made some good progress this weeken= d.=C2=A0 After trying to prime the oil pump and still not getting any oil f= low, I broke down and removed the pan.=C2=A0 There was the culprit, big as = day.=C2=A0 I had a kink in the oil pickup line.=C2=A0 Because I am installi= ng an inverted oil system, I have to run the line from the pump back out th= e pan to the inverted oil ball valve.=C2=A0 This line needed a bend, and I = thought the hose could handle it, but I was wrong.=C2=A0 SO I replaced the = bend with metal parts, and reassembled everything.=C2=A0 Now I=E2=80=99ve g= ot 60 PSI.=C2=A0 I also burped the coolant, and that system seems to be wor= king too.=0A=C2=A0=0AI did find a couple of leaks that will have to be fixe= d, but that is all minor work.=0A=C2=A0=0AThanks all for the helpful words!= =0A=C2=A0=0AGetting closer every day.=0A=C2=A0=0AChris=0A=0A=0A --0-2044075651-1236604027=:84481 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
John/Ed,
=0A
 
=0A
Thanks for t= he sound advice. I guess there is no need to re-invent the wheel, as I am n= ot planning any new approaches in the installation. I will defini= tely be taking the road many others have already gone down. So it's ba= ck to the books and newsgroups for a little bit of knowledge and some resea= rch.
=0A
 
=0A
John, I tend to agree with you a= bout the 20B. The more I think about it, the more I sway towards a 2 r= otor. I have been over your website more times than I can count, and will b= e "stealing" a lot of your ideas when the time comes. I gave quick thought = to a turbo 13B, but am a little hesitant to add more complexity to an alrea= dy complex installation. However, I haven't discounted it. I am c= urious to see how the Girrrls do with there installation.  I know the = renesis engines have hotter exhaust temps, so I'll have to look into soluti= ons for that. Thanks again, you bring up a lot of thought-provoking questio= ns. Exactly the reason for these newsgroups!!
=0A
 
=0A<= DIV>Jim
=0A
Charlotte, NC
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0AFrom: Ed Anderson <eanderson@carolina.rr.com>
<= SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To: Rotary motors in aircraft &= lt;flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
= Sent: Monday, March 9, 2009 5:24:22 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Ground Testing

=0A=0A=0A
= =0A

Hi Jim,

=0A

 

=0A

<= SPAN style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Being one o= f the early Rotary Fliers and knowing no one (at the time) with a flying ro= tary  and there being no such e mail list as this to ask questions, I = decided on extensive ground testing.  I build a test stand that duplic= ated my planned FWF installation.  Mounted the engine and ran it in th= e test stand for over 30 hours ground  run time.   Keeping i= n mind that so far as I knew at the time =E2=80=93 the rotary had not been = yet proven in aircraft application.  In fact, the few folks that had t= ried it never really achieve success even though a couple did get into the = air.

=0A

But, in any case, here is what I believe the ground test program pr= ovided me (some of the factors have now been demonstrated by many others an= d can be accepted with such ground running.

=0A

 

=0A
    =0A
  1. Reliability and robustness of the engine (yes, I mana= ge to over-heat it a couple of times =E2=80=93 once to the point of having = to replace the stock coolant =E2=80=9CO=E2=80=9D rings)
    2. = =0A
  2. Worked out= some changes in component installation on the Firewall
    3. = =0A
  3. Proved tha= t the GM evaporator cores (used as radiators) would indeed work
    4. =0A
  4. Sho= wed that the EFI pumps would indeed =E2=80=9Csuck=E2=80=9D fuel up-hill at = least 2 feet and once even caused a heavy duty marine type fuel container t= o collapse due to the pressure differential (for got to undo the vent cap).=   Note: having a EFI =E2=80=9Csuch=E2=80=9D fuel rather than =E2=80=9C= Push=E2=80=9D fuel is not recommended.  The pumps should be =E2=80=9Cw= et=E2=80=9D at all times when operating =E2=80=93 even 30-50 seconds withou= t fuel can damage their impeller.
    5. =0A
  5. Showed that my semi  =E2=80= =9Creturnless=E2=80=9D fuel system (1/2 pint header tank mounted on the fir= ewall) worked
    6. =0A
  6. Showed that my =E2=80=9CPlugs Up=E2=80=9D orientation= of the engine was indeed viable.
    7. =0A
  7. Convinced my self that the engine= would put out sufficient power to make it a viable power plan (although no= t nearly the power I got out of it later after completely redesigning the i= nduction system)
    8. =0A
  8. Gain considerably knowledge (still learning) about=  and confidence in the engine ( 500+ hours run time) and 10 years sin= ce first flight.
=0A

 

=0A

 

=0A

Now, having said all of that, much of the above= can be taken as proven and no need to further reinvent the wheel.  If= however, you are talking some new approach to some element of a critical s= ystem such fuel, ignition, cooling or lubrication, then you might want to v= erify that your concept is viable on the ground rather than in the air.&nbs= p; On the other hand, if you are pretty much following practices that have = been proven by members of this list then there is probably no need for a gr= ound test program other than what you do to prove your installed setup &nbs= p;works as planned.

=0A

 

=0A

The further you depart from what has been shown to wor= k, then the greater the need for a ground test phase, in my opinion.  = Being in the air and finding out your idea is less than ideal is not the pl= ace to be.

=0A

 

=0A

Just my 0.02 worth

=0A

 

=0A

Hope this helps.

=0A

 

=0A<= DIV>=0A

Ed Anderson

=0A

Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Pow= ered

=0A

Matthe= ws, NC

=0A

eand= erson@carolina.rr.com

=0A

http://www.andersonee.com

=0A

http://www.dmack.net/mazd= a/index.html

=0A

http://www.flyrotary.com/

=0A

http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N= 494BW

=0A

http= ://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm

=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailt= o:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Beha= lf Of Jim Perdue
Sent: Sunday, March 08, 2009 10:50 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Ground Testing

=0A

 

=0A
=0A
=0A

Hello everyone. I've been reading this mailing list for a bi= t, and I am very impressed with the knowledge and experiences being shared = here. It is everyone here who is paving the way for the rotary installation= s of the future. I for one am very grateful.

=0A=0A

 

=0A
=0A

I am currently building a Cozy MKIV and I am seriously considering a = rotary. Most likely a renesis, but possibly considering a 20B. I have rebui= lt a few engines in my day (piston of course). I am far from needing an eng= ine, but I was wondering if some of you can answer a question? I realize th= ere are in-flight challenges that can only be addressed at that time of cou= rse, but how much can you debug/learn from ground testing an engine? Can an= yone tell me what can be acheived during ground testing and what cannot? Ev= en though I am far away from a powerplant, I'd like to pick up a cheap engi= ne and start "playing" ;-)

=0A
=0A

 

=0A
=0A

I appreciate= any input on this subject. Thanks!

=0A
=0A

 

=0A
=0A

= Jim=

=0A
=0A

Charlotte , NC

=0A
=0A

 

=0A=0A
=0A
=0A
= =0A

From: Mark Steitle <msteitle@gmail.com&= gt;
To: Rotary motors in= aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Sunday, March 8, 2009 9:18:55 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: I've got oil = pressure!

That's great news Chris.  Glad you figu= red out the problem. 

Mark S.

=0A
=0A

= On Sun, Mar 8, 2009 at 7:23 PM, The Mallorys <candtmallory@cebridge.net> wrote:<= /P>=0A

=0A
=0A

I made some good progress this weekend.  After t= rying to prime the oil pump and still not getting any oil flow, I broke dow= n and removed the pan.  There was the culprit, big as day.  I had= a kink in the oil pickup line.  Because I am installing an inverted o= il system, I have to run the line from the pump back out the pan to the inv= erted oil ball valve.  This line needed a bend, and I thought the hose= could handle it, but I was wrong.  SO I replaced the bend with metal = parts, and reassembled everything.  Now I=E2=80=99ve got 60 PSI. = I also burped the coolant, and that system seems to be working too.=

=0A

 

=0A

I did find a couple of leaks that = will have to be fixed, but that is all minor work.

=0A

<= FONT size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman">&nbs= p;

=0A

Thanks all for the helpful words!

= =0A

 

=0A

Getting closer every day.

= =0A

 

=0A

Chris

=0A<= P class=3DMsoNormal> 

=0A

 


=0A=0A --0-2044075651-1236604027=:84481--