X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from fed1rmmtao106.cox.net ([68.230.241.40] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.10) with ESMTP id 3323825 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 30 Nov 2008 11:30:33 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=68.230.241.40; envelope-from=alventures@cox.net Received: from fed1rmimpo01.cox.net ([70.169.32.71]) by fed1rmmtao106.cox.net (InterMail vM.7.08.02.01 201-2186-121-102-20070209) with ESMTP id <20081130162955.ZRUH3946.fed1rmmtao106.cox.net@fed1rmimpo01.cox.net> for ; Sun, 30 Nov 2008 11:29:55 -0500 Received: from NOTEBOOK ([72.192.137.74]) by fed1rmimpo01.cox.net with bizsmtp id lUVu1a00C1cVYgg03UVucw; Sun, 30 Nov 2008 11:29:54 -0500 X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.0 c=1 a=dcceLKKjR8QA:10 a=5lAf-3jT9A0A:10 a=GHe-4rBeMjnMxzEZxeMA:9 a=Bk_yH6wMnmR6jfiLkNoA:7 a=_u4UIidMCvrGR6C8diJSoocFHbcA:4 a=TPIV6_IeQG8A:10 a=EzXvWhQp4_cA:10 a=QMgMR9M9BAsA:10 a=yMhMjlubAAAA:8 a=DJgnkNDgR6FNvYj-Ux4A:9 a=ShCoXgtMeRisueryIp4A:7 a=90RIKyOnWB-BBG76MqxxCTh8WzIA:4 a=37WNUvjkh6kA:10 X-CM-Score: 0.00 From: "Al Gietzen" To: "'Rotary motors in aircraft'" Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] : First Flight, short and hot Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 08:29:55 -0800 Message-ID: <696CCDC8D9184C83BDC45C8319A21C10@NOTEBOOK> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0011_01C952C5.D2E50870" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C952C5.D2E50870 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jeff; Congrats on first flight! The flow measurements I did on the dyno indicated about a 25% increase in flow rate by removing the thermostat. Increasing the flow rate decreases the delta T around the loop, which will increase the rejection temp a bit; which will help. However, if you are have that degree of deficit at 32F OAT, increasing the flow rate isn't going to resolve it. Look for reasons for insufficient air flow through the rad. Radiator cap ratings have at least a 10% tolerance, so the pressure could have been 22 and pegged your reading - or it could be some other issue, like restriction of the overflow as Steve mentioned. Are you confident of the gauge calibration? Are you running pure water, and was there any indication of boiling (which would certainly peg the guage)? If there is no air in the system, the pressure should drop as soon as the temp starts to decrease. I wouldn't think there is an issue with your oil temp measurement - the flow to the re-drive would be representative. Oh; and definitely match the belts. As you know; throwing one belt could easily take out the other. Best of luck, Al G -----Original Message----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Jeff Whaley Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 7:03 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] : First Flight, short and hot I was in the right seat (flight engineer) when my homebuilt 2+2 made its first flight yesterday with the 13B Mazda engine, but not without problems. The coolant temperature reached 230F by circuit altitude; after throttle back and approach it had only dropped to about 225F; the oil temperature was indicating only 160F (this could be a mounting-point issue or real I'm not sure . oil temp measure point is from a small manifold bolted to the PSRU mounting plate, with oil flowing from engine to PSRU) outside air temperature was about 32-33F. The coolant pressure pegged the gauge beyond 20 psi, which was a surprise as the pressure cap is rated for 20 psi . I expected the engine to burp itself out and maintain 20 psi. I tightened up the cowling around the radiator and removed the thermostat in an attempt to make a second flight but while removing the thermostat I noticed one of the alternator V-belts was broken . got another belt only to find it didn't match the other . these belts really need to be a matched-pair. Prior to flight, I noticed the outside belt (which broke) did not have the same tension as the inside belt; it must have climbed out of the pulley groove and got sliced by the pulley. Previously I bought a double alternator pulley from Racing Beat but never installed it, due to difficulty with removing the nut . thought it best to leave well enough alone . I will now put on that new pulley. Hope to make another flight next weekend if the test pilot is in agreement. Any comments/experience on thermostat Vs no thermostat? Why would the pressure cap hold beyond its rating? Jeff Whaley C-FJWW From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Tracy Crook Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2008 3:10 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Renesis fuel burn If you haven't calibrated the EM2 fuel flow yet, the GPH reading does not mean anything. Don't make any decisions based on that reading. Calibrating the fuel flow is the most difficult and time consuming parts of EM2 setup. That's the down side of doing it with such an inexpensive flow sensor ($0.00) since it has none. The other option is to use a Floscan flow sensor with the EM2 but they are pricy. At 30" of manifold pressure and best power mixture setting and 6400 RPM you should get a fuel burn somewhere around 15 - 18 GPH. The exact amount will depend on other factors like exact mixture setting, your intake manifold, exhaust system, air temp, etc. Tracy Crook On Thu, Nov 27, 2008 at 6:32 PM, Rino wrote: Where can I get information on fuel burn and power for the renesis? The maximum fuel burn I can get on takeoff is 11.7 gph (reading on the EM2) at 64 00 rpm. The EM2 is not fully calibrated yet! I think I should be able to get a higher fuel burn than that. The other part of the problem. What should be the intake manifold runner length on the Renesis. Best power has to be between 6000 and 6500 rpm limited by the propeller and redrive configuration. I cannot use more than 65" dia. prop. The present runner length is 17" and I think it is not enough. Rino Lacombe Renesis powered Glass Goose ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C952C5.D2E50870 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Jeff;

 

Congrats on first = flight!

 

The flow measurements I did on = the dyno indicated about a 25% increase in flow rate by removing the thermostat. Increasing = the flow rate decreases the delta T around the loop, which will increase the rejection temp a bit; which will help.  However, if you are have = that degree of deficit at 32F OAT, increasing the flow rate isn’t going = to resolve it.  Look for reasons for insufficient air flow through the = rad.

 

Radiator cap ratings have at = least a 10% tolerance, so the pressure could have been 22 and pegged your reading = – or it could be some other issue, like restriction of the overflow as = Steve mentioned.  Are you confident of the gauge calibration?  Are you running pure = water, and was there any indication of boiling (which would certainly peg the = guage)?  If there is no air in the system, the pressure should drop as soon as = the temp starts to decrease.

 

I wouldn’t think there is = an issue with your oil temp measurement – the flow to the re-drive would be representative.

 

Oh; and definitely match the belts.  As you know; throwing one belt could easily take out the = other.

 

Best of luck,

 

Al G

 

 

 

-----Original = Message-----
From: Rotary motors in = aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Jeff Whaley
Sent: Sunday, November = 30, 2008 7:03 AM
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] : = First Flight, short and hot

 

I was in the right seat (flight engineer) when my homebuilt 2+2 made its = first flight yesterday with the 13B Mazda engine, but not without problems. = The coolant temperature reached 230F by circuit altitude; after throttle = back and approach it had only dropped to about 225F; the oil temperature was = indicating only 160F (this could be a mounting-point issue or real I’m not = sure … oil temp measure point is from a small manifold bolted to the PSRU = mounting plate, with oil flowing from engine to PSRU) outside air temperature was = about 32-33F. The coolant pressure pegged the gauge beyond 20 psi, which was a surprise as the pressure cap is rated for 20 psi … I expected the = engine to burp itself out and maintain 20 psi.

 

I tightened up the cowling around the radiator and removed the thermostat = in an attempt to make a second flight but while removing the thermostat I = noticed one of the alternator V-belts was broken … got another belt only to = find it didn’t match the other … these belts really need to be a matched-pair. Prior to flight, I noticed the outside belt (which broke) = did not have the same tension as the inside belt; it must have climbed out of = the pulley groove and got sliced by the pulley. Previously I bought a double alternator pulley from Racing Beat but never installed it, due to = difficulty with removing the nut … thought it best to leave well enough alone = … I will now put on that new pulley.

 

Hope to make another flight next weekend if the test pilot is in = agreement.

Any comments/experience on thermostat Vs no thermostat?

Why would the pressure cap hold beyond its rating?

Jeff Whaley

C-FJWW

 

 

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Tracy Crook
Sent: Saturday, November = 29, 2008 3:10 PM
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Renesis fuel burn

 

If you haven't calibrated the EM2 fuel flow yet, the GPH reading does not mean anything.  Don't make any decisions based on that = reading.   Calibrating the fuel flow is the most difficult and time consuming parts = of EM2 setup.   That's the down side of doing it with such an = inexpensive flow sensor ($0.00) since it has none.   The other option is = to use a Floscan flow sensor with the EM2  but they are pricy.

  At 30" of manifold pressure and best power mixture setting = and 6400 RPM you should get a fuel burn somewhere around 15 - 18 GPH.  The = exact amount will depend on other factors like exact mixture setting, your = intake manifold, exhaust system, air temp, etc.

Tracy Crook

On Thu, Nov 27, 2008 at 6:32 PM, Rino <lacombr@nbnet.nb.ca> = wrote:

Where can I get information = on fuel burn and power for the renesis?

The maximum fuel burn I can = get on takeoff is 11.7 gph (reading on the EM2) at 64 00 rpm.   The = EM2 is not fully calibrated yet!   I think I should be able to get a = higher fuel burn than that.

 

The other part of the = problem.  What should be the intake manifold runner length on the Renesis.  = Best power has to be between 6000 and 6500 rpm limited by the = propeller and redrive configuration.   I cannot use more than 65" = dia. prop.

 

The present runner length = is 17" and I think it is not enough.

 

Rino Lacombe

Renesis powered Glass Goose

 

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