X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail08.syd.optusnet.com.au ([211.29.132.189] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.7) with ESMTPS id 3118645 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 07 Sep 2008 17:38:21 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=211.29.132.189; envelope-from=lendich@optusnet.com.au Received: from george (d211-31-70-177.dsl.nsw.optusnet.com.au [211.31.70.177]) by mail08.syd.optusnet.com.au (8.13.1/8.13.1) with SMTP id m87LbZBs018332 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 2008 07:37:36 +1000 Message-ID: <001401c91131$f6422710$6400a8c0@george> From: "George Lendich" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: New rotary engine-mazda points on design Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 07:37:42 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0011_01C91185.C6FFDF70" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3350 X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 080907-0, 07/09/2008), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C91185.C6FFDF70 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Tracy, You had me worried, I though I had lost some level of comprehension, I = know I'm getting old and I'm half expecting that loss, but I was hoping = it wasn't just yet { :-).=20 Yes your right of course, some direct injection can be run in the = combustion chamber and is ideal for lean burn with rich mixture at the = spark plug. I am led to believe that developments have been done along = those lines with an injector which is also a spark plug - but the = pressure has to be very high to inject against the compression. Possibly = as high as 200 psi. I'm pretty sure the injection at the 16x placement would be double that = of standard injection which I thought was about 70 psi x 2 =3D 140 psi - = I could be wrong here; hence my concern. It has to be fairly high to get = the atomization of the fuel for complete burn. Your also right that I want to get away from high pressure, but for = reasons of simplicity as well. There is no doubting the benefits of fuel = injection but at the cost of complexity, for me at my level of knowledge = on such issues. George ( down under) Yes, crossed wires . I thought you were spooked by the term 'direct = injection' which in most cases means into the combustion chamber at post = compression levels (like the direct injection on some outboards) at 110 = to 2000+ PSI depending on the system used..=20 You mentioned liking the Bendix system at 30 PSI. We all have our = own thresholds of danger I guess but the 32 - 40 PSI on EFI doesn't seem = like such a big deal. Given the method used in the 16X, I assume the = pressures to be in this range on it too. =20 Tracy=20 On Sat, Sep 6, 2008 at 5:50 PM, George Lendich = wrote: Tracy, I must be missing a point somewhere, or we have crossed wires, as I = haven't mentioned the combustion chamber. My only concern is high = pressure fuel leak in flight. Don't get me wrong I like fuel injection = because of the control over injection volume and performance. I only = wish there was high pressure at the point of injection - only.=20 I have fuel injection on my Suzuki 1800 Motorbike and it's great, = but I would hate to have to work on it, like I did on the old carbied = bike. I've noticed the Jabiru are running a very simple system. Their = using a Honda ignition module with an altitude compensating carby - not = that the system is perfect either. George ( down under) I think you are missing Ernest's point George. Note the location = of the injectors in the 16X. They are NOT in the combustion chamber. Tracy On Sat, Sep 6, 2008 at 2:16 AM, George Lendich = wrote: Ernest, Very true mate, to me high pressure in a cowl is my concern - = paint me paranoid. If we could have low pressure injection I would be = most appreciative, but sadly the carby is 'old hat' now. The Bendix type = systems are about 30 psi - not too bad! Are they really going to have ceramic coatings on the side = housings? George ( down under)=20 George Lendich wrote: Jim, The biggest volume is at BDC- anything past this is = compression, it's not getting high until it goes past the inlet area; = but it certainly is quite high at the 12:00 O'clock position where the = direct injection is taking place. Direct Injection has to be high to atomize the fuel = particles finely enough to get complete combustion. Of course it has to = be high to also counter the compression pressure at this stage. George ( down under) But, George, "high" is a relative term. We run our fuel = system on the road anywhere from 30 to 60 psi. That 60 seems awfully = high; but the natural gas in the portable tank that I buy from the = grocery store to fire by BBQ grill comes with 300psi. That's what it = takes to make natural gas a liquid at room temperatures. And that crazy = guy, T. Boon Pickens, is trying to convince us Americans to run our cars = on that same natural gas (actually, many are doing it already). At a = 10:1 compression ratio, ambient pressure is driven to 147 psi. You = still only need 60 above that to get the good atomization. Yet, you can = buy tanks from the GROCERY STORE compressed to 300. Granted, the BBQ grill doesn't get the same sort of vibrations = as a car (unless I've got the burgers REALLY flying), but that is just a = matter of engineering the connectors to handle the stress. Simple = engineering that has been done a gazillion times before (see diesel = engine). I'm not saying they don't have some engineering and testing to = do. I'm just saying that they're not having to blaze new trails into = unknown territory. This seems to me to be very much a small evolutionary = step, and not a major revolutionary one. --=20 http://www.ernest.isa-geek.org -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html=20 -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C91185.C6FFDF70 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Tracy,
You had me worried, I though I had lost = some level=20 of comprehension, I know I'm getting old and I'm half expecting that = loss, but I=20 was hoping it wasn't just yet { :-).
 
Yes your right of course, some direct = injection can=20 be run in the combustion chamber and is ideal for lean burn with rich = mixture at=20 the spark plug. I am led to believe that developments have been done = along those=20 lines with an injector which is also a spark plug - but the pressure has = to be=20 very high to inject against the compression. Possibly as high as 200=20 psi.
 
I'm pretty sure the injection at the = 16x placement=20 would be double that of standard injection which I thought was about 70 = psi x 2=20 =3D 140 psi - I could be wrong here; hence my concern. It has to be = fairly high to=20 get the atomization of the fuel for complete burn.
 
Your also right that I want to get away = from high=20 pressure, but for reasons of simplicity as well. There is no doubting = the=20 benefits of fuel injection but at the cost of complexity, for me at my = level of=20 knowledge on such issues.
George ( down under)

 
Yes, crossed wires .  I thought you were spooked = by the term=20 'direct injection' which in most cases means into the combustion = chamber at=20 post compression levels (like the direct injection on some outboards) = at 110=20 to 2000+ PSI depending on the system used..

 You = mentioned liking=20 the Bendix system at 30 PSI.  We all have our own thresholds of = danger I=20 guess but the 32 - 40 PSI on EFI doesn't seem like such a big=20 deal.   Given the method used in the 16X, I assume the = pressures to=20 be in this range on it too. 

Tracy

On Sat, Sep 6, 2008 at 5:50 PM, George = Lendich <lendich@optusnet.com.au>=20 wrote:
Tracy,
I must be missing a point = somewhere, or we have=20 crossed wires, as I haven't mentioned the combustion chamber. My = only=20 concern is high pressure fuel leak in flight. Don't get me wrong I = like fuel=20 injection because of the control over injection volume and = performance. I=20 only wish there was high pressure at the point of injection = - only.=20
 
I have fuel injection on my Suzuki = 1800=20 Motorbike and it's great, but I would hate to have to work on it, = like I did=20 on the old carbied bike.
 
I've noticed the Jabiru are running = a very=20 simple system. Their using a Honda ignition module with an altitude=20 compensating carby - not that the system is perfect=20 either.
George ( down under)
I think you are missing Ernest's point = George.  Note the=20 location of the injectors in the 16X.  They are NOT in the = combustion=20 chamber.

Tracy



On Sat, Sep 6, 2008 at 2:16 AM, George = Lendich=20 <lendich@optusnet.com.au> wrote:
Ernest,
Very=20 true mate,  to me high pressure in a cowl is my concern - = paint me=20 paranoid. If we could have low pressure injection I would be = most=20 appreciative, but sadly the carby is 'old hat' now. The Bendix = type=20 systems are about 30 psi - not too bad!
Are they really going = to have=20 ceramic coatings on the side housings?
George ( down under)=20


George=20 Lendich wrote:
Jim,
The=20 biggest volume is at BDC- anything past this is compression, = it's=20 not getting high until it goes past the inlet area; but it = certainly=20 is quite high at the 12:00 O'clock position where the direct = injection is taking place.
Direct Injection has to be = high to=20 atomize the fuel particles finely enough to get complete = combustion.=20 Of course it has to be high to also counter the compression = pressure=20 at this stage.
George ( down under)
But, = George,=20 "high" is a relative term.  We run our fuel system on the = road=20 anywhere from 30 to 60 psi.  That 60 seems awfully high;=20  but the natural gas in the portable tank that I buy from = the=20 grocery store to fire by BBQ grill comes with 300psi. =  That's=20 what it takes to make natural gas a liquid at room = temperatures.=20  And that crazy guy, T. Boon Pickens, is trying to = convince us=20 Americans to run our cars on that same natural gas (actually, = many are=20 doing it already).  At a 10:1 compression ratio, ambient = pressure=20 is driven to 147 psi.  You still only need 60 above that = to get=20 the good atomization.  Yet, you can buy tanks from the = GROCERY=20 STORE compressed to 300.

Granted, the BBQ grill doesn't = get the=20 same sort of vibrations as a car (unless I've got the burgers = REALLY=20 flying), but that is just a matter of engineering the = connectors to=20 handle the stress.  Simple engineering that has been done = a=20 gazillion times before (see diesel engine).  I'm not = saying they=20 don't have some engineering and testing to do.  I'm just = saying=20 that they're not having to blaze new trails into unknown = territory.=20 This seems to me to be very much a small evolutionary step, = and not a=20 major revolutionary one.

--

http://www.ernest.isa-geek.org



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