X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from rv-out-0506.google.com ([209.85.198.230] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.7) with ESMTP id 3118095 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 07 Sep 2008 07:01:23 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.198.230; envelope-from=rwstracy@gmail.com Received: by rv-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id f6so1889274rvb.7 for ; Sun, 07 Sep 2008 04:00:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender :to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references :x-google-sender-auth; bh=jipT67DW13sGxqDI3f7GWnr6/qDkgCZtpgdCmwqTOgY=; b=Zyh9k018Ag7PbC9UmsWNv4a+ZwDP14CUkU/HdgodmKZk1itHPGsZ720vOlujK0JLSB G5JbPzB+bXMYLhz4o1TDN8pj7GV1bwRsy8SUStv9ZTxIsySECc4krcDKtk16+0+vnMV2 bDi9l4bpZ8FnnJ2Fk9Cit1fHqLFGSKm16ae+Y= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=u64NhqhA8hqiMTjJgxGhjcbv9XgLLhx/JtzadHTRaOd0j267s9pxRBqwx7IeOSiEUl 6mcp993eR3L03w3lbXoLkVrzWbzExqSCkRPMMohge41zqeG0ppW+UhZl+eg1brrcvP8t Dyv81ppOrrjO6EZE6Db8sH97gW9V2UlCvarMo= Received: by 10.141.28.4 with SMTP id f4mr8053767rvj.35.1220785245583; Sun, 07 Sep 2008 04:00:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.141.82.18 with HTTP; Sun, 7 Sep 2008 04:00:45 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <1b4b137c0809070400w49f2debauc7a73e457cac0b2d@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2008 07:00:45 -0400 From: "Tracy Crook" Sender: rwstracy@gmail.com To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: New rotary engine-mazda points on design In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_61241_16202309.1220785245581" References: X-Google-Sender-Auth: fc0beff4a8b768e1 ------=_Part_61241_16202309.1220785245581 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Yes, crossed wires . I thought you were spooked by the term 'direct injection' which in most cases means into the combustion chamber at post compression levels (like the direct injection on some outboards) at 110 to 2000+ PSI depending on the system used.. You mentioned liking the Bendix system at 30 PSI. We all have our own thresholds of danger I guess but the 32 - 40 PSI on EFI doesn't seem like such a big deal. Given the method used in the 16X, I assume the pressures to be in this range on it too. Tracy On Sat, Sep 6, 2008 at 5:50 PM, George Lendich wrote: > Tracy, > I must be missing a point somewhere, or we have crossed wires, as I haven't > mentioned the combustion chamber. My only concern is high pressure fuel leak > in flight. Don't get me wrong I like fuel injection because of the control > over injection volume and performance. I only wish there was high pressure > at the point of injection - only. > > I have fuel injection on my Suzuki 1800 Motorbike and it's great, but I > would hate to have to work on it, like I did on the old carbied bike. > > I've noticed the Jabiru are running a very simple system. Their using a > Honda ignition module with an altitude compensating carby - not that the > system is perfect either. > George ( down under) > > I think you are missing Ernest's point George. Note the location of the > injectors in the 16X. They are NOT in the combustion chamber. > > Tracy > > > > On Sat, Sep 6, 2008 at 2:16 AM, George Lendich wrote: > >> Ernest, >> Very true mate, to me high pressure in a cowl is my concern - paint me >> paranoid. If we could have low pressure injection I would be most >> appreciative, but sadly the carby is 'old hat' now. The Bendix type systems >> are about 30 psi - not too bad! >> Are they really going to have ceramic coatings on the side housings? >> George ( down under) >> >> >> George Lendich wrote: >>> >>>> Jim, >>>> The biggest volume is at BDC- anything past this is compression, it's >>>> not getting high until it goes past the inlet area; but it certainly is >>>> quite high at the 12:00 O'clock position where the direct injection is >>>> taking place. >>>> Direct Injection has to be high to atomize the fuel particles finely >>>> enough to get complete combustion. Of course it has to be high to also >>>> counter the compression pressure at this stage. >>>> George ( down under) >>>> >>> But, George, "high" is a relative term. We run our fuel system on the >>> road anywhere from 30 to 60 psi. That 60 seems awfully high; but the >>> natural gas in the portable tank that I buy from the grocery store to fire >>> by BBQ grill comes with 300psi. That's what it takes to make natural gas a >>> liquid at room temperatures. And that crazy guy, T. Boon Pickens, is trying >>> to convince us Americans to run our cars on that same natural gas (actually, >>> many are doing it already). At a 10:1 compression ratio, ambient pressure >>> is driven to 147 psi. You still only need 60 above that to get the good >>> atomization. Yet, you can buy tanks from the GROCERY STORE compressed to >>> 300. >>> >>> Granted, the BBQ grill doesn't get the same sort of vibrations as a car >>> (unless I've got the burgers REALLY flying), but that is just a matter of >>> engineering the connectors to handle the stress. Simple engineering that >>> has been done a gazillion times before (see diesel engine). I'm not saying >>> they don't have some engineering and testing to do. I'm just saying that >>> they're not having to blaze new trails into unknown territory. This seems to >>> me to be very much a small evolutionary step, and not a major revolutionary >>> one. >>> >>> -- >>> >>> http://www.ernest.isa-geek.org >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >>> Archive and UnSub: >>> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >>> >> >> >> -- >> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >> Archive and UnSub: >> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >> > > ------=_Part_61241_16202309.1220785245581 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline
Yes, crossed wires .  I thought you were spooked by the term 'direct injection' which in most cases means into the combustion chamber at post compression levels (like the direct injection on some outboards) at 110 to 2000+ PSI depending on the system used..

 You mentioned liking the Bendix system at 30 PSI.  We all have our own thresholds of danger I guess but the 32 - 40 PSI on EFI doesn't seem like such a big deal.   Given the method used in the 16X, I assume the pressures to be in this range on it too. 

Tracy

On Sat, Sep 6, 2008 at 5:50 PM, George Lendich <lendich@optusnet.com.au> wrote:
Tracy,
I must be missing a point somewhere, or we have crossed wires, as I haven't mentioned the combustion chamber. My only concern is high pressure fuel leak in flight. Don't get me wrong I like fuel injection because of the control over injection volume and performance. I only wish there was high pressure at the point of injection - only.
 
I have fuel injection on my Suzuki 1800 Motorbike and it's great, but I would hate to have to work on it, like I did on the old carbied bike.
 
I've noticed the Jabiru are running a very simple system. Their using a Honda ignition module with an altitude compensating carby - not that the system is perfect either.
George ( down under)
I think you are missing Ernest's point George.  Note the location of the injectors in the 16X.  They are NOT in the combustion chamber.

Tracy



On Sat, Sep 6, 2008 at 2:16 AM, George Lendich <lendich@optusnet.com.au> wrote:
Ernest,
Very true mate,  to me high pressure in a cowl is my concern - paint me paranoid. If we could have low pressure injection I would be most appreciative, but sadly the carby is 'old hat' now. The Bendix type systems are about 30 psi - not too bad!
Are they really going to have ceramic coatings on the side housings?
George ( down under)


George Lendich wrote:
Jim,
The biggest volume is at BDC- anything past this is compression, it's not getting high until it goes past the inlet area; but it certainly is quite high at the 12:00 O'clock position where the direct injection is taking place.
Direct Injection has to be high to atomize the fuel particles finely enough to get complete combustion. Of course it has to be high to also counter the compression pressure at this stage.
George ( down under)
But, George, "high" is a relative term.  We run our fuel system on the road anywhere from 30 to 60 psi.  That 60 seems awfully high;  but the natural gas in the portable tank that I buy from the grocery store to fire by BBQ grill comes with 300psi.  That's what it takes to make natural gas a liquid at room temperatures.  And that crazy guy, T. Boon Pickens, is trying to convince us Americans to run our cars on that same natural gas (actually, many are doing it already).  At a 10:1 compression ratio, ambient pressure is driven to 147 psi.  You still only need 60 above that to get the good atomization.  Yet, you can buy tanks from the GROCERY STORE compressed to 300.

Granted, the BBQ grill doesn't get the same sort of vibrations as a car (unless I've got the burgers REALLY flying), but that is just a matter of engineering the connectors to handle the stress.  Simple engineering that has been done a gazillion times before (see diesel engine).  I'm not saying they don't have some engineering and testing to do.  I'm just saying that they're not having to blaze new trails into unknown territory. This seems to me to be very much a small evolutionary step, and not a major revolutionary one.

--

http://www.ernest.isa-geek.org



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