X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail04.syd.optusnet.com.au ([211.29.132.185] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.7) with ESMTPS id 3117605 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 06 Sep 2008 17:51:24 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=211.29.132.185; envelope-from=lendich@optusnet.com.au Received: from george (d211-31-70-177.dsl.nsw.optusnet.com.au [211.31.70.177]) by mail04.syd.optusnet.com.au (8.13.1/8.13.1) with SMTP id m86LobHm031535 for ; Sun, 7 Sep 2008 07:50:41 +1000 Message-ID: <000801c9106a$9f59cc90$6400a8c0@george> From: "George Lendich" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: New rotary engine-mazda points on design Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2008 07:50:43 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0005_01C910BE.6E6A4A20" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3350 X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 080906-0, 06/09/2008), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C910BE.6E6A4A20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Tracy, I must be missing a point somewhere, or we have crossed wires, as I = haven't mentioned the combustion chamber. My only concern is high = pressure fuel leak in flight. Don't get me wrong I like fuel injection = because of the control over injection volume and performance. I only = wish there was high pressure at the point of injection - only.=20 I have fuel injection on my Suzuki 1800 Motorbike and it's great, but I = would hate to have to work on it, like I did on the old carbied bike. I've noticed the Jabiru are running a very simple system. Their using a = Honda ignition module with an altitude compensating carby - not that the = system is perfect either. George ( down under) I think you are missing Ernest's point George. Note the location of = the injectors in the 16X. They are NOT in the combustion chamber. Tracy On Sat, Sep 6, 2008 at 2:16 AM, George Lendich = wrote: Ernest, Very true mate, to me high pressure in a cowl is my concern - paint = me paranoid. If we could have low pressure injection I would be most = appreciative, but sadly the carby is 'old hat' now. The Bendix type = systems are about 30 psi - not too bad! Are they really going to have ceramic coatings on the side housings? George ( down under) George Lendich wrote: Jim, The biggest volume is at BDC- anything past this is compression, = it's not getting high until it goes past the inlet area; but it = certainly is quite high at the 12:00 O'clock position where the direct = injection is taking place. Direct Injection has to be high to atomize the fuel particles = finely enough to get complete combustion. Of course it has to be high to = also counter the compression pressure at this stage. George ( down under) But, George, "high" is a relative term. We run our fuel system on = the road anywhere from 30 to 60 psi. That 60 seems awfully high; but = the natural gas in the portable tank that I buy from the grocery store = to fire by BBQ grill comes with 300psi. That's what it takes to make = natural gas a liquid at room temperatures. And that crazy guy, T. Boon = Pickens, is trying to convince us Americans to run our cars on that same = natural gas (actually, many are doing it already). At a 10:1 = compression ratio, ambient pressure is driven to 147 psi. You still = only need 60 above that to get the good atomization. Yet, you can buy = tanks from the GROCERY STORE compressed to 300. Granted, the BBQ grill doesn't get the same sort of vibrations as = a car (unless I've got the burgers REALLY flying), but that is just a = matter of engineering the connectors to handle the stress. Simple = engineering that has been done a gazillion times before (see diesel = engine). I'm not saying they don't have some engineering and testing to = do. I'm just saying that they're not having to blaze new trails into = unknown territory. This seems to me to be very much a small evolutionary = step, and not a major revolutionary one. --=20 http://www.ernest.isa-geek.org -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html=20 -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C910BE.6E6A4A20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Tracy,
I must be missing a point somewhere, or = we have=20 crossed wires, as I haven't mentioned the combustion chamber. My only = concern is=20 high pressure fuel leak in flight. Don't get me wrong I like fuel = injection=20 because of the control over injection volume and performance. I only = wish there=20 was high pressure at the point of injection - only.
 
I have fuel injection on my Suzuki 1800 = Motorbike=20 and it's great, but I would hate to have to work on it, like I did on = the old=20 carbied bike.
 
I've noticed the Jabiru are running a = very simple=20 system. Their using a Honda ignition module with an altitude = compensating=20 carby - not that the system is perfect either.
George ( down under)
I think you are missing Ernest's point George.  = Note the=20 location of the injectors in the 16X.  They are NOT in the = combustion=20 chamber.

Tracy



On Sat, Sep 6, 2008 at 2:16 AM, George = Lendich <lendich@optusnet.com.au>=20 wrote:
Ernest,
Very=20 true mate,  to me high pressure in a cowl is my concern - paint = me=20 paranoid. If we could have low pressure injection I would be most=20 appreciative, but sadly the carby is 'old hat' now. The Bendix type = systems=20 are about 30 psi - not too bad!
Are they really going to have = ceramic=20 coatings on the side housings?
George ( down under)


George=20 Lendich wrote:
Jim,
The=20 biggest volume is at BDC- anything past this is compression, = it's not=20 getting high until it goes past the inlet area; but it certainly = is=20 quite high at the 12:00 O'clock position where the direct = injection is=20 taking place.
Direct Injection has to be high to atomize the = fuel=20 particles finely enough to get complete combustion. Of course it = has to=20 be high to also counter the compression pressure at this=20 stage.
George ( down under)
But, George, = "high" is a=20 relative term.  We run our fuel system on the road anywhere = from 30=20 to 60 psi.  That 60 seems awfully high;  but the natural = gas in=20 the portable tank that I buy from the grocery store to fire by BBQ = grill=20 comes with 300psi.  That's what it takes to make natural gas = a liquid=20 at room temperatures.  And that crazy guy, T. Boon Pickens, = is trying=20 to convince us Americans to run our cars on that same natural gas=20 (actually, many are doing it already).  At a 10:1 compression = ratio,=20 ambient pressure is driven to 147 psi.  You still only need = 60 above=20 that to get the good atomization.  Yet, you can buy tanks = from the=20 GROCERY STORE compressed to 300.

Granted, the BBQ grill = doesn't get=20 the same sort of vibrations as a car (unless I've got the burgers = REALLY=20 flying), but that is just a matter of engineering the connectors = to handle=20 the stress.  Simple engineering that has been done a = gazillion times=20 before (see diesel engine).  I'm not saying they don't have = some=20 engineering and testing to do.  I'm just saying that they're = not=20 having to blaze new trails into unknown territory. This seems to = me to be=20 very much a small evolutionary step, and not a major revolutionary = one.

--

http://www.ernest.isa-geek.org



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