X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com X-SpamCatcher-Score: 2 [X] Return-Path: Received: from QMTA01.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.16] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.6) with ESMTP id 3072248 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 11 Aug 2008 22:29:53 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=76.96.30.16; envelope-from=cbarber@texasattorney.net Received: from OMTA01.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.11]) by QMTA01.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id 1C4u1a0280EPchoA1EVFkt; Tue, 12 Aug 2008 02:29:15 +0000 Received: from ChristopherNB ([98.200.107.125]) by OMTA01.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id 1EVC1a00B2iMkLq8MEVEWG; Tue, 12 Aug 2008 02:29:15 +0000 X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.0 c=1 a=YkwdXzsH7CoA:10 a=Ya_0tsOnAAAA:8 a=5JI5IBeHlpFEgEYU4zYA:9 a=Pw6XDonkW_cc6YbcKlkA:7 a=laOz07OTU_yiJMlUbwq-xHPQB6UA:4 a=5FtdkfQUxfIA:10 a=YKJ3yXMgi3ZFrVngn5wA:9 a=vCCNZ6vZzYFA8h69roYA:7 a=msmUgGYdLIn_qCF--YPX6T5qh9YA:4 a=AfD3MYMu9mQA:10 Message-ID: <230FFC8F737345F6AE0055BDD52D728A@ChristopherNB> From: "Christopher Barber" To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" , "FlyRotary aircraft" , Subject: Jeffco Problem...worst day as a builder Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 21:28:40 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_243A_01C8FBF9.39020000" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Mail 6.0.6000.16480 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.0.6000.16545 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_243A_01C8FBF9.39020000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Well, this was the worst builder day I have had. That includes the day I = realized I had to build a new rotary engine, which, btw, was running = better each day before this fuel issue developed. As the collective from the various list I am on may recall, I have had = persistent fuel leak issues. A few weeks ago I had a visit from the fine = men of the Ellington/JSC/NASA fire department when I leaked a few = gallons on to the hangar floor while I was at home sleeping late. Also, = I thought my original clear factory tubes failed due to ethanol. They = had turned color and became brittle (turns out they had not YET leaked. I tried sucking new Jeffco into where I thought the leak was (very hard = to reach area behind the spar. I found a loose hard point and since I = was having some fuel seep through the floor of my cabin I thought maybe = the fuel was seeping in behind the hard point into the foam to the cabin = floor. Since the two hard points from the strake fuel line were both put = in per plans years ago (before my choice to use a rotary, thus auto = fuel) they were installed with EZ-84/flox. Since the flox around the = loose hard point seemed a bit "off" I decided to redo both of them with = Jeffco. At the same time I also took out the factory fuel elbow fittings = as mentioned above and installed Vance Atkinson's gages. I did this over = the last few days.=20 I thought all was well, but when I added fuel to the right strake only, = I still had fuel seeping through the cabin floor. So, I am having fuel = leak though the inner foam. I spoke with Velocity, Inc who stated I = could either go into the inner skin around the stake storage area or cut = a hole in the top of the strake to find the leak. I chose to go into the = top of the strake as I thought it would be better to not try to patch a = leak from the outside. So, I cut a hole in the strake to apply Jeffco to = try to find/cure the leak. EEEEEEAAAAAKKKKK. I opened up the top right strake and the Jeffco on the = top of the strake was sitting in the bottom of the tank. OMG!!!!. Almost = all the Jeffco from the top of the strake had fallen off. It was all = flaky and not adhering. Also, a number of places from the sides and = bottom had also fallen off. I called Velocity, Inc and they said they had never had this issue = before. They suggested I look in the other stake to see if the problem = was there too. We discussed when I applied it and how. Now guys and = gals, I am not a complete incompetent. I know I sanded stakes before I = applied the Jeffco, I mixed it well and per instructions. Also, the top = strake Jeffco was applied at a different time/batch from the = sides/bottom. The Velocity top strake is a pre-built piece and is laid = on the strake sides/bottom in a separate step and the Jeffco is applied = to the top before you seal it, then you seal it with more Jeffco. I have never had more than about 20 gallons of fuel in the system (about = 60 total capacity). I have had the fuel sit in the strakes for a long = while though. I used the Jeffco since it is supposed to be more = resistant to fuels like diesel and auto, even with ethanol...at least = that was my understanding. Some ares of the strakes seem pretty good = (but I don't trust any of it now). I did get TWO, one gallon kits of = Jeffco back when I did this part of the build. My first thought is that = perhaps one of the buckets was a bad batch. Donno. I did cut into the pilot strake too. It was not as bad. The top of the = strake looks good, but I do have some flaking on the sides. There are = four compartments in each strake. I cut into one on the co-pilot side, = and three on the pilot side so far. One on the pilot side seems perfect = (so far). The inconsistency has me confused currently. But to be honest, = after dealing with this for a while and trying to be philosophical about = it...such as I would much rather find it now, I walked away and worked = on re-attaching my ailerons after balancing them.=20 So, it seems many of those other fuel issue may have not been the = problem I thought they were....this does seem to be the cause for when = the fire department came out as that leak just seem to happen. When I = pressure tested this system a few years back, all seemed fine. I am posting the pix on the Canardzone but I am posting this message on = a few sites like FlyRotary and the Velocity Builders site. The factory = asked me to post too so they could have a look and determine if this may = be a isolated incident (such as me missing something big) OR if it could = be a bigger problem. Well, here are some of the pix I took....if they = are blurry, don't worry, it is only my tears...... The link to pictures is = http://www.canardzone.com/forum/showthread.php?p=3D25569&posted=3D1#post2= 5569 All the best, Chris ------=_NextPart_000_243A_01C8FBF9.39020000 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Well, this was the worst builder day I have had. That includes the = day I=20 realized I had to build a new rotary engine, which, btw, was running = better each=20 day before this fuel issue developed.

As the collective from the = various=20 list I am on may recall, I have had persistent fuel leak issues. A few = weeks ago=20 I had a visit from the fine men of the Ellington/JSC/NASA fire = department when I=20 leaked a few gallons on to the hangar floor while I was at home sleeping = late.=20 Also, I thought my original clear factory tubes failed due to ethanol. = They had=20 turned color and became brittle (turns out they had not YET = leaked.

I=20 tried sucking new Jeffco into where I thought the leak was (very hard to = reach=20 area behind the spar. I found a loose hard point and since I was having = some=20 fuel seep through the floor of my cabin I thought maybe the fuel was = seeping in=20 behind the hard point into the foam to the cabin floor. Since the two = hard=20 points from the strake fuel line were both put in per plans years ago = (before my=20 choice to use a rotary, thus auto fuel) they were installed with = EZ-84/flox.=20 Since the flox around the loose hard point seemed a bit "off" I decided = to redo=20 both of them with Jeffco. At the same time I also took out the factory = fuel=20 elbow fittings as mentioned above and installed Vance Atkinson's gages. = I did=20 this over the last few days.

I thought all was well, but when I = added=20 fuel to the right strake only, I still had fuel seeping through the = cabin floor.=20 So, I am having fuel leak though the inner foam. I spoke with Velocity, = Inc who=20 stated I could either go into the inner skin around the stake storage = area or=20 cut a hole in the top of the strake to find the leak. I chose to go into = the top=20 of the strake as I thought it would be better to not try to patch a leak = from=20 the outside. So, I cut a hole in the strake to apply Jeffco to try to = find/cure=20 the leak.

EEEEEEAAAAAKKKKK. I opened up the top right strake and = the=20 Jeffco on the top of the strake was sitting in the bottom of the tank. = OMG!!!!.=20 Almost all the Jeffco from the top of the strake had fallen off. It was = all=20 flaky and not adhering. Also, a number of places from the sides and = bottom had=20 also fallen off.

I called Velocity, Inc and they said they had = never had=20 this issue before. They suggested I look in the other stake to see if = the=20 problem was there too. We discussed when I applied it and how. Now guys = and=20 gals, I am not a complete incompetent. I know I sanded stakes before I = applied=20 the Jeffco, I mixed it well and per instructions. Also, the top strake = Jeffco=20 was applied at a different time/batch from the sides/bottom. The = Velocity top=20 strake is a pre-built piece and is laid on the strake sides/bottom in a = separate=20 step and the Jeffco is applied to the top before you seal it, then you = seal it=20 with more Jeffco.

I have never had more than about 20 gallons of = fuel in=20 the system (about 60 total capacity). I have had the fuel sit in the = strakes for=20 a long while though. I used the Jeffco since it is supposed to be more = resistant=20 to fuels like diesel and auto, even with ethanol...at least that was my=20 understanding. Some ares of the strakes seem pretty good (but I don't = trust any=20 of it now). I did get TWO, one gallon kits of Jeffco back when I did = this part=20 of the build. My first thought is that perhaps one of the buckets was a = bad=20 batch. Donno.

I did cut into the pilot strake too. It was not as = bad. The=20 top of the strake looks good, but I do have some flaking on the sides. = There are=20 four compartments in each strake. I cut into one on the co-pilot side, = and three=20 on the pilot side so far. One on the pilot side seems perfect (so far). = The=20 inconsistency has me confused currently. But to be honest, after dealing = with=20 this for a while and trying to be philosophical about it...such as I = would much=20 rather find it now, I walked away and worked on re-attaching my ailerons = after=20 balancing them.
 
So, it seems many of those other fuel issue may have not been the = problem I=20 thought they were....this does seem to be the cause for when the fire = department=20 came out as that leak just seem to happen.  When I pressure tested = this=20 system a few years back, all seemed fine.

I am posting the pix on = the=20 Canardzone but I am posting this message on a few sites like FlyRotary = and the=20 Velocity Builders site. The factory asked me to post too so they could = have a=20 look and determine if this may be a isolated incident (such as me = missing=20 something big) OR if it could be a bigger problem. Well, here are some = of the=20 pix I took....if they are blurry, don't worry, it is only my = tears......
 
The link to pictures is http://www.canardzone.com/forum/showthread.php?p=3D2556= 9&posted=3D1#post25569

All=20 the=20 best,

Chris
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