X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from rv-out-0506.google.com ([209.85.198.228] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.5) with ESMTP id 3054008 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 03 Aug 2008 11:41:08 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.198.228; envelope-from=rwstracy@gmail.com Received: by rv-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id f6so1603986rvb.7 for ; Sun, 03 Aug 2008 08:40:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender :to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references :x-google-sender-auth; bh=k3t1r7D8GjrvF/IF98nj/s8pwaMhu9bpOeg/1Ul5j2E=; b=GQSplD0hVSkRumf6T2RKjEEDYvvUtcwF/Qdr/QmNSFcMU6vJcEZje5rWUPuT20Z7ri 8X05/z3kBD5MDrOGiRgR8uOk4XVEUW9WVHZJBiG1TAdaJBIGFiNhQExfnziPGiFlxzBE zMslSvFHFqp4W+/CQSXflfu4AW5qF+s99twW8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=HZRiC26xw+PyLbG4muWtgX/QTTuufHLwWNbfIObeNf/mFoxBSzRuxdzpeUK1MXE34/ wF53ChNTpqXCDe2kittDr44OOaU3ErEu9dKZSUBOxw6kklbFCvvQHPzXw5QPil14lDpH sT6fXXYLjugLuk3S46St/s+zwVCP0UgP8rtrk= Received: by 10.141.162.9 with SMTP id p9mr7057045rvo.199.1217778028827; Sun, 03 Aug 2008 08:40:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.141.41.18 with HTTP; Sun, 3 Aug 2008 08:40:28 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <1b4b137c0808030840h6aabe698y4920c5247249695d@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2008 11:40:28 -0400 From: "Tracy Crook" Sender: rwstracy@gmail.com To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Safety wire In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_26367_6135659.1217778028838" References: X-Google-Sender-Auth: 2ef420bb6642cfff ------=_Part_26367_6135659.1217778028838 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Just my take on this but as far as the tension bolts go, I would never saft= y wire them. Between the rubber sealing washers used on these and the very long spring tension on them (when properly torqued) I don't think it is possible for them to vibrate loose. This self retention on tension bolts is so extream that impact wrenches will usually not remove them. The bolts just spring back to original position after each impact. You have to break them loose with a hand wrench first. If a tension bolt comes loose while in use, it probably was not tightened properly in the first place. Tracy (back from Osh) On Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 5:16 PM, Ed Anderson wro= te: > Yeah, I've never measure the angle so who really knows. Gee, that take= s > some precision drilling there, Bill. Now, we'll all know where to send o= ur > tension bolts to be drilled {:>). > > > > Actually, I use a racers trick for retention of the long rotary tension > bolts. A couple of folks have actually had one back out in flight. > Fortunately, the one incident I am familiar with was using the heavy fly > wheel (rather than the flex plate =96 although I don't know whether it wo= uld > have made a difference) and when the bolt came loose and backed its head = out > into the path of the flywheel something caught the bolt and bent a 90 deg > bend in it. Fortunately, the rotary got the aviator back safely, but > suffice it to say one does not want tension bolts backing out like that. > > > > I notice on one of the junk 13Bs I acquired that had been used by a racer= , > that there was a thin steel sheet disc that was bolted using the outer se= al > bolts but which extend out almost the full diameter of the block =96 cove= ring > the heads of all the tension bolts. Needless to say, that precludes any > backing out into the fly wheel/flex plate. But, does not keep them from > coming loose like a safety wire would. > > > > Yes, I use the metal lock nuts (NOT the ones with plastic inserts for any > new comers to aviation) for all bolts in the engine compartment including= my > prop. > > > > > > Now back to programming. > > Ed Anderson > > Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered > > Matthews, NC > > eanderson@carolina.rr.com > > http://www.andersonee.com > > http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW > > http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html > ------------------------------ > > *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] *O= n > Behalf Of *wrjjrs@aol.com > *Sent:* Monday, July 28, 2008 2:24 PM > > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Safety wire > > > > Ed what's a couple of degrees between friends? Al suggested he has used > metal lock nuts whenever possible. I like this solution. the steel Jet-nu= ts > are fantastic if somewhat expensive. With reguards to weakening bolts by > wiring, I will use a technique where I drill through a corner only on > low-grade nuts or bolts. This is a little tedious but I've done 30 in an > hour when I did them production style. First I spot the bolt with a sligh= tly > larger drill, them I drill perpendicular to the cone surface a short > distance with a .06 drill. This sounds hard but if you hold the head by t= he > flats it lines up perfectly. Then do the same thing on an adjoining flat. > Not as good as the AN through drilled bolt, but easy to do. Works on nuts > too! I've done this on exhaust nuts on a problem engine I had. Not the on= ly > solution, and sometimes overkill. The biggest advantage of having bolts > drilled for wire is that you will usually tighten them before wiring them= ! > This is the reason racers use a lot of wire. the wire is a great reminder > when replacing parts. If I have anything on my plane that I find I'm > removing and replacing a lot it WILL be safety wired. Most items DON'T NE= ED > safety wire, if you remember to tighten them. > Bill Jepson > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ed Anderson > To: Rotary motors in aircraft > Sent: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 9:46 am > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Safety wire > > That's impressive, Bill. I don't think (as Lynn said) and aircraft ever > came out of the sky because of safety wire =96 but plenty have because la= ck of > it. However, some bolts and such on the rotary, you would need to drill = the > heads/nuts yourself =96 in that case, I'm think I would look to other > alternatives as drilling a bolt head or threaded part could weaken it. > Fortunately, the vibration level is lot lower on the rotary compared to m= ost > reciprocating engines. > > > > By the way, I'll bet you even wire the 37 deg AN fittings as well {:>) > > > > Ed > > > > Ed Anderson > > Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered > > Matthews, NC > > *eanderson@carolina.rr.com* > > *http://www.andersonee.com* > > *http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW* > > *http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html* > ------------------------------ > > *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft [*mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net*] > *On Behalf Of **wrjjrs@aol.com* > *Sent:* Monday, July 28, 2008 12:21 PM > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Safety wire > > > > Keith, > there will be many divergent opinions on this I'm sure. My personal mantr= a > is safety wire anything you don't want to fall off! There are several > approaches too. I am an ex motorcycle racer and the rules required all ba= sic > safety items to be wired. Those were, all oil drains, water drain plugs i= f > any, brake mount bolts, and oil feed bolts and filters. I would usually d= o > more than was required. I have seen many things vibrate off that you > wouldn't think possible when operating at high power levels. I would use > both .039 and .025 stainless steel safety wire. The .025 isn't FAA approv= ed > on a lot of things, but it's light and serves the purpose. I even wired > 39=B0AN fittings, which isn't required. > Bill Jepson > > > -----Original Message----- > From: *ktradcliff@comcast.net< /A> > To: Rotary motors in aircraft <* * > flyrotary@lancaironline.net* > > Sent: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 5:07 pm > Subject: [FlyRotary] Safety wire > > Hello everyone, > > > > I know that the subject of safety wire has been discussed many times befo= re, > > however searching the archives can at times be very difficult and actuall= y > > finding the answer you want is like winning the lottery (it never happens= ). > > What I would like to know is what most are considering an absolute must t= o be > > safety wired. What the FAA r > > equires and what is not so important but some are > > doing anyway. I feel that the subject of safety can never be discussed e= nough. > > I would like everyone that has an opinion on safety wire and what must be= safety > > wired to weigh in on this subject. I plan to save some if not all of you= r > > answers for future reference. Maybe we can make a list of what must be s= afety > > wired. > > > > Thanks > > Keith > > RV-7A > > 13-B > > > > -- > > Homepage: *http://www.flyrotary.com/* > > Archive and UnSub: *http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/Li= st.html* > > ------------------------------ > > The Famous, the Infamous, the Lame - in your browser. *Get the TMZ Toolba= r > Now* ! > ------------------------------ > > The Famous, the Infamous, the Lame - in your browser. *Get the TMZ Toolba= r > Now* ! > ------=_Part_26367_6135659.1217778028838 Content-Type: text/html; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline
Just my take on this but as far as the tension bolts = go, I would never safty wire them. 
 
  Between the rubber sealing washers used on these and the very l= ong spring tension on them (when properly torqued) I don't think it is = possible for them to vibrate loose.   This self retention on tens= ion bolts is so extream that impact wrenches will usually not remove them.&= nbsp; The bolts just spring back to original position after each impact.&nb= sp; You have to break them loose with a hand wrench first.
 
If a tension bolt comes loose while in use, it probably was not tighte= ned properly in the first place.
 
Tracy  (back from Osh)

On Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 5:16 PM, Ed Anderson <eanderson@c= arolina.rr.com> wrote:

Yeah, I've never measure the angle = so who really knows.   Gee, that takes some precision drilling th= ere, Bill.  Now, we'll all know where to send our tension bolts to be = drilled {:>).

 

Actually, I use a racers trick for = retention of the long rotary tension bolts.  A couple of folks have ac= tually had one back out in flight.  Fortunately, the one incident I am= familiar with was using the heavy fly wheel (rather than the flex plate = =96 although I don't know whether it would have made a difference) and when= the bolt came loose and backed its head out into the path of the flywheel = something caught the bolt and bent a 90 deg bend in it.  Fortunately, = the rotary got the aviator back safely, but suffice it to say one does not = want tension bolts backing out like that.

 

I notice on one of the junk 13Bs I = acquired that had been used by a racer, that there was a thin steel sheet d= isc that was bolted using the outer seal bolts but which extend out almost = the full diameter of the block =96 covering the heads of all the tension bo= lts.  Needless to say, that precludes any backing out into the fly whe= el/flex plate.  But, does not keep them from coming loose like a = safety wire would.

 

Yes, I use the metal lock nuts (NOT= the ones with plastic inserts for any new comers to aviation) for all bolt= s in the engine compartment including my prop.

 

 

Now back to programming.

From: Rota= ry motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of wrjjrs@aol.com
Sent: Monday, July 28, 2008= 2:24 PM=20


To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subjec= t: [FlyRotary] Re: Safety wire

= Ed what's a couple of degrees between f= riends? Al suggested he has used metal lock nuts whenever possible. I like = this solution. the steel Jet-nuts are fantastic if somewhat expensive.= With reguards to weakening bolts by wiring, I will use a technique where I= drill through a corner only on low-grade nuts or bolts. This is a little t= edious but I've done 30 in an hour when I did them production style. Fi= rst I spot the bolt with a slightly larger drill, them I drill perpendicula= r to the cone surface a short distance with a .06 drill. This sounds hard b= ut if you hold the head by the flats it lines up perfectly. Then do the sam= e thing on an adjoining flat. Not as good as the AN through drilled bolt, b= ut easy to do. Works on nuts too! I've done this on exhaust nuts on a p= roblem engine I had. Not the only solution, and sometimes overkill. The big= gest advantage of having bolts drilled for wire is that you will usually ti= ghten them before wiring them! This is the reason racers use a lot of wire.= the wire is a great reminder when replacing parts. If I have anything on m= y plane that I find I'm removing and replacing a lot it WILL be safety = wired. Most items DON'T NEED safety wire, if you remember to tighten th= em.
Bill Jepson


-----Original Message-----
From: Ed Anderson <= eanderson@ca= rolina.rr.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.ne= t>
Sent: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 9:46 am
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Safety wire

That's impressive, Bill. I don't th= ink (as Lynn said) and aircraft ever came out of the sky because of safety = wire =96 but plenty have because lack of it.  However, some bolts and = such on the rotary, you would need to drill the heads/nuts yourself =96 in = that case, I'm think I would look to other alternatives as drilling a bolt = head or threaded part could weaken it. Fortunately, the vibration level is = lot lower on the rotary compared to most reciprocating engines.

 

By the way,   I'll bet yo= u even wire the 37 deg AN fittings as well {:>)

 

Ed

 

From: Rota= ry motors in aircraft [mailto:fl= yrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of wrjjrs@aol.= com
Sent: Monday, July 28, 2008= 12:21 PM
To: Rotary mot= ors in aircraft
Subject:= [FlyRotary] Re: Safety wire

ktradcliff@comcast.net< /A>
To: Rotary motors= in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 5:07 pm
Subject: [FlyRotary] Safety wire

Hello e=
veryone,
 
I know that t=
he subject of safety wire has been discussed many times before,  
however searc=
hing the archives can at times be very difficult and actually 
finding the a=
nswer you want is like winning the lottery (it never happens).  
What I would =
like to know is what most are considering an absolute must to be 
safety wired.=
  What the FAA r
equires and w=
hat is not so important but some are 
doing anyway.=
  I feel that the subject of safety can never be discussed enough.&nbs=
p; 
I would like =
everyone that has an opinion on safety wire and what must be safety =

wired to weig=
h in on this subject.  I plan to save some if not all of your <=
/font>
answers for f=
uture reference.  Maybe we can make a list of what must be safety 
wired.=

 
Thanks
Keith<=
/span>
RV-7A<=
/font>
13-B =

 
--
Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/


Archive and U=
nSub:   http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html<=
/font>

The Famous, the Infamous, the Lam= e - in your browser. Get the TMZ Toolbar Now!

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