X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from rv-out-0506.google.com ([209.85.198.236] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.5) with ESMTP id 3046723 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 29 Jul 2008 08:32:36 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.198.236; envelope-from=msteitle@gmail.com Received: by rv-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id f6so4191085rvb.7 for ; Tue, 29 Jul 2008 05:31:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to :subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; bh=SbaUc4ayn8SGMl0rQtrOVbnU6413fm0ZT3mcmFV7giU=; b=ISxw6iCl04xKSTvZz5yIX9sWfxGOSnUxL7Tvss7fwjwrdSzsuJxevo3KTSxFPGJ5LT HXzO+Y+6Akncb8HrBPAxbUJ+LxcWn64DKjxyFtzz6j8Odj5j333p1TehUB81i7Yk8A5O INuOuwxvfCRoH4TEA9XUmBB5QMEq2PB94PY4s= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:references; b=XLgkJ2jsi0WfhzDMUIJkMurVkhkcBJ8O6g0bM2CvAMxUCFfjJFoot3kobjL0WVEwJy hkABCqmYwfF06xcQJDz7XKFFk26VpMF5geAXym7ucJJqy/M6d1FOFbavtSYb3//UXEpb nRY2tuG3jWfHRuWd3/aIqbSstnhXKTJVziAuo= Received: by 10.141.146.4 with SMTP id y4mr2992077rvn.272.1217334717871; Tue, 29 Jul 2008 05:31:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.141.169.20 with HTTP; Tue, 29 Jul 2008 05:31:57 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <5cf132c0807290531k4c527b87mf8bccd00e538ad51@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 07:31:57 -0500 From: "Mark Steitle" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Safety wire In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_30142_2016566.1217334717874" References: ------=_Part_30142_2016566.1217334717874 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Lynn, Do you have a source for drilled metric bolts? Mark S. On 7/28/08, Lynn Hanover wrote: > > Torque figures are for clean dry threads. Locking compound is sort of a > lubricant, of unknown value from compound to compound. No locking compound > in aluminum. Eventually the threads come out glued to the bolt. Bolts in > iron or steel threads are OK for locking. Studs in aluminum that in normal > service are permanent can be locktited. Bolts that you expect to remove from > time to time in aluminum will eventually remove the threads, and a repair > will be required. Better to wire the bolt and never have the problem. Studs > only need to be snug in their holes. In steel or iron, Loctite is fine. > (They call the red stuff stud and bearing mount) The blue stuff for > aluminum. Any aircraft bolt or screw can be ordered with a wire feature. It > part of its part number. The wire hole is not a factor in the fasteners > strength rating. Nuts on studs need no locking compound. The stud will come > out on the nut. Wire the nut instead. > > I did a study once to determin if Uncle Sam was spending too much for hose > clamps used on aircraft. > The troops see the Chinese hose clamp on a nail at the parts store for 45 > cents, and an "Ideal" hose clamp from the bench stock (it was years ago) and > that one is $2.60. So they complain and submit a savings report. > The government actually buys every kind of worm clamp ever heard of and in > their thousands. So the helicopter mechanic who has a piece of equipment > that uses a non aircraft clamp can get one with the right NSN. But is not > authorized to install it unless the TM or TO calls out that particular clamp > by and NSN. > > The clamp on the nail at the parts store has only a screw driver slot to > tighten it. No wire hole. It would probably work OK, and it probably > wouldn't come loose between 100 hour checks. Probably........most > unlikely........seldom if ever..........not very often at > all.................. > > The clamp in the TO or TM has a pedigree. The manufacturer has electron > beam etched a lot number on every clamp made that day. Two clamps from every > lot are retained by the manufacturer forever. It is 316 stainless not 304 > stainless. It has a screw driver slot and a hex head. It is drilled for > wire. The wire holes are chamfered. At random during production a number of > clamps will be removed from the packaging line and tested to 150% of rated > capacity. So why do the very best aircraft hose clamps ever made, have a > lock wire feature? Because they all must be wired. In the event you forgot, > and this bird is not chained down in the runup area at 9:00 AM exercising > her new engines because you are still here wiring clamps you should have > wired yesterday, you my E-3 friend will be an E-2 in Afganistan wiring hose > clamps on helicopters 8 hours each day at 130 degrees, and sorting sheep > shit an extra 2 hours each day until your enlistment ends. Wire the clamps. > > Lynn E. Hanover > > > In a message dated 7/28/2008 8:47:35 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > ktradcliff@comcast.net writes: > > Wow! The differences in opinions is so varied when it comes to the subject > of safety wire. From absolutely nothing to almost everything, and whatever > may fall between. Ed, you have your oil pan drain plug and your oil filter > wired with very little else. John you mentioned that your oil pan bolts > are wired. Are these all of the small 6mm bolts? If so; how did you wire > them? Did you drill them, are they weaker because of this as someone has > mentioned? Also John; What type of mount are you using? Is it the bed > mount that relies on the 6mm bolts? You would not want to weaken any of > these bolts however you wouldn't want any of these bolts to come out. Al, > you mention that you don't have anything safety wired and haven't > experienced anything important coming lose in a car. I have and it was very > important. It was a tube and o-ring related to the coolant system that was > held into the block by one bolt. Needless to say the one bolt backed out, I > lost coolant over heated and I > pulled over to the side of the road. I cannot pull over in a plane. It > would be nice if we didn't have to wire anything, however we must decide > what is critical. Bill, I think that your knowledge as a racer is > priceless. We could all benefit from you knowledge and find out what falls > off of motors that we really don't want to fall off. It would appear that > oil drains and coolant drains are the most important in racing. Not only > does it protect your engine from complete failure from oil loss or coolant > loss, but it also protects other racers on the track as these fluids if > spilled onto the track become very slippery. And once again Ed, you mention > that drilling bolts could weaken them, and I agree. So the question is; > When is a bolt or nut to small to drill? Bill, I also agree with you when > you say that "most bolts don't need safety wire if you remember to tighten > them". However what I find interesting is that no one has mentioned or > suggested the use of thread lock along > with proper torquing. And as far as the tension bolts go from what I > understand is that Tracy Crook does not recommend safety wire on these > bolts. He does however recommend the use of rtv sealant on these bolts. > What about sealant and thread lock? Thanks everyone. > > Keith > RV-7A > 13-B > > ------=_Part_30142_2016566.1217334717874 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline
Lynn,
 
Do you have a source for drilled metric bolts? 
 
Mark S.

 
On 7/28/08, = Lynn Hanover <lehanover@gmail= .com> wrote:
Torque figures are for clean dry threads. Locking compound is sort of = a lubricant, of unknown value from compound to compound. No locking compoun= d in aluminum. Eventually the threads come out glued to the bolt. Bolts in = iron or steel threads are OK for locking. Studs in aluminum that in normal = service are permanent can be locktited. Bolts that you expect to remove fro= m time to time in aluminum will eventually remove the threads, and a repair= will be required. Better to wire the bolt and never have the problem. Stud= s only need to be snug in their holes. In steel or iron, Loctite is fine. (= They call the red stuff stud and bearing mount) The blue stuff fo= r aluminum. Any aircraft bolt or screw can be ordered with a wire feature. = It part of its part number. The wire hole is not a factor in the fasteners = strength rating. Nuts on studs need no locking compound. The stud will come= out on the nut. Wire the nut instead.
 
I did a study once to determin if Uncle Sam was spending too much for = hose clamps used on aircraft.
The troops see the Chinese hose clamp on a nail at the parts stor= e for 45 cents, and an "Ideal" hose clamp from the bench sto= ck (it was years ago) and that one is $2.60. So they complain and submit a = savings report.
The government actually buys every kind of worm clamp ever heard of an= d in their thousands. So the helicopter mechanic who has a piece of equipme= nt that uses a non aircraft clamp can get one with the right NSN. But is no= t authorized to install it unless the TM or TO calls out that particular cl= amp by and NSN.
 
The clamp on the nail at the parts store has only a screw driver slot = to tighten it. No wire hole. It would probably work OK, and it probably wou= ldn't come loose between 100 hour checks. Probably........most unlikely= ........seldom if ever..........not very often at all..................
 
The clamp in the TO or TM has a pedigree. The manufacturer has electro= n beam etched a lot number on every clamp made that day. Two clamps from ev= ery lot are retained by the manufacturer forever. It is 316 stainless not 3= 04 stainless. It has a screw driver slot and a hex head. It is drilled for = wire. The wire holes are chamfered. At random during production a number of= clamps will be removed from the packaging line and tested to 150% of rated= capacity. So why do the very best aircraft hose clamps ever made, have a l= ock wire feature? Because they all must be wired. In the event you forgot, = and this bird is not chained down in the runup area at 9:00 AM exercising h= er new engines because you are still here wiring clamps you should have wir= ed yesterday, you my E-3 friend will be an E-2 in Afganistan wiring hose cl= amps on helicopters 8 hours each day at 130 degrees, and sorting sheep shit= an extra 2 hours each day until your enlistment ends. Wire the clamps.
 
Lynn E. Hanover
 
 
In a message dated 7/28/2008 8:47:35 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, ktradcliff@comcast.net writes:
Wow!  The differences in opinions is so var= ied when it comes to the subject of safety wire.  From absolutely noth= ing to almost everything, and whatever may fall between.  Ed, you have= your oil pan drain plug and your oil filter wired with very  little e= lse.  John you mentioned that your oil pan bolts are wired.  Are = these all of the small 6mm bolts?  If so; how did you wire them? = Did you drill them, are they weaker because of this as someone has mention= ed?  Also John; What type of mount are you using?  Is it the bed = mount that relies on the 6mm bolts?  You would not want to weaken any = of these bolts however you wouldn't want any of these bolts to come out= .  Al, you mention that you don't have anything safety wired and h= aven't experienced anything important coming lose in a car.  I hav= e and it was very important. It was a tube and o-ring related to the coolan= t system that was held into the block by one bolt.  Needless to say th= e one bolt backed out, I lost coolant over heated and I
pulled over to the side of the road.  I cannot pull over in a plane.&n= bsp; It would be nice if we didn't have to wire anything, however we mu= st decide what is critical.  Bill, I think that your knowledge as a ra= cer is priceless.  We could all benefit from you knowledge and find ou= t what falls off of motors that we really don't want to fall off. = It would appear that oil drains and coolant drains are the most important = in racing.  Not only does it protect your engine from complete failure= from oil loss or coolant loss, but it also protects other racers on the tr= ack as these fluids if spilled onto the track become very slippery.  A= nd once again Ed, you mention that drilling bolts could weaken them, and I = agree.  So the question is; When is a bolt or nut to small to drill?&n= bsp; Bill, I also agree with you when you say that "most bolts don'= ;t need safety wire if you remember to tighten them".  However wh= at I find interesting is that no one has mentioned or suggested the use of = thread lock along
with proper torquing.  And as far as the tension bolts go from what I = understand is that Tracy Crook does not recommend safety wire on these bolt= s.  He does however recommend the use of rtv sealant on these bolts.&n= bsp; What about sealant and thread lock?  Thanks everyone.

Keith
RV-7A
13-B

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