X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from QMTA01.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.62.16] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.5) with ESMTP id 3046368 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 29 Jul 2008 00:13:57 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=76.96.62.16; envelope-from=gregw@onestopdesign.biz Received: from OMTA14.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.62.60]) by QMTA01.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id vbUm1Z00Q1HzFnQ51gD9se; Tue, 29 Jul 2008 04:13:09 +0000 Received: from gregoryii ([24.6.40.29]) by OMTA14.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id vgDK1Z0080dkeQQ3agDK4g; Tue, 29 Jul 2008 04:13:20 +0000 X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.0 c=1 a=TbZ3xT8VfCobmdnQRP0A:9 a=Ukj1simzHqr4QT8lI0UA:9 a=htpVre7_tvJPoZUwkHMA:7 a=Bf-KEYP6k-bVndJdci58v1WNwKgA:4 a=si9q_4b84H0A:10 a=gi0PWCVxevcA:10 a=KaLVvQsJMYSxG_skhVIA:9 a=BDLyIb4Y2svB1se7oW0A:9 a=olRg4z5AchZJzQK7lXoA:7 a=Uga3rW_iyuJ65hl16UJBbr-4Z88A:4 a=MSl-tDqOz04A:10 a=EzXvWhQp4_cA:10 a=AfD3MYMu9mQA:10 Message-ID: <23681E6A6EC448749A31B5CF39915A4E@yosemite.onestopdesign.biz> From: "Greg Ward" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Safety wire Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 21:18:18 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_03BB_01C8F0F7.74B77E70" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5512 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_03BB_01C8F0F7.74B77E70 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think I knew a C.O. like you at Wheelus, many, many years = ago........(:-) Greg Ward Lancair 20B in progress ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Lynn Hanover=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Monday, July 28, 2008 7:52 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Safety wire Torque figures are for clean dry threads. Locking compound is sort of = a lubricant, of unknown value from compound to compound. No locking = compound in aluminum. Eventually the threads come out glued to the bolt. = Bolts in iron or steel threads are OK for locking. Studs in aluminum = that in normal service are permanent can be locktited. Bolts that you = expect to remove from time to time in aluminum will eventually remove = the threads, and a repair will be required. Better to wire the bolt and = never have the problem. Studs only need to be snug in their holes. In = steel or iron, Loctite is fine. (They call the red stuff stud and = bearing mount) The blue stuff for aluminum. Any aircraft bolt or screw = can be ordered with a wire feature. It part of its part number. The wire = hole is not a factor in the fasteners strength rating. Nuts on studs = need no locking compound. The stud will come out on the nut. Wire the = nut instead.=20 I did a study once to determin if Uncle Sam was spending too much for = hose clamps used on aircraft. The troops see the Chinese hose clamp on a nail at the parts store for = 45 cents, and an "Ideal" hose clamp from the bench stock (it was years = ago) and that one is $2.60. So they complain and submit a savings = report.=20 The government actually buys every kind of worm clamp ever heard of = and in their thousands. So the helicopter mechanic who has a piece of = equipment that uses a non aircraft clamp can get one with the right NSN. = But is not authorized to install it unless the TM or TO calls out that = particular clamp by and NSN. The clamp on the nail at the parts store has only a screw driver slot = to tighten it. No wire hole. It would probably work OK, and it probably = wouldn't come loose between 100 hour checks. Probably........most = unlikely........seldom if ever..........not very often at = all.................. The clamp in the TO or TM has a pedigree. The manufacturer has = electron beam etched a lot number on every clamp made that day. Two = clamps from every lot are retained by the manufacturer forever. It is = 316 stainless not 304 stainless. It has a screw driver slot and a hex = head. It is drilled for wire. The wire holes are chamfered. At random = during production a number of clamps will be removed from the packaging = line and tested to 150% of rated capacity. So why do the very best = aircraft hose clamps ever made, have a lock wire feature? Because they = all must be wired. In the event you forgot, and this bird is not chained = down in the runup area at 9:00 AM exercising her new engines because you = are still here wiring clamps you should have wired yesterday, you my E-3 = friend will be an E-2 in Afganistan wiring hose clamps on helicopters 8 = hours each day at 130 degrees, and sorting sheep shit an extra 2 hours = each day until your enlistment ends. Wire the clamps. Lynn E. Hanover In a message dated 7/28/2008 8:47:35 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, = ktradcliff@comcast.net writes: Wow! The differences in opinions is so varied when it comes to the = subject of safety wire. From absolutely nothing to almost everything, = and whatever may fall between. Ed, you have your oil pan drain plug and = your oil filter wired with very little else. John you mentioned that = your oil pan bolts are wired. Are these all of the small 6mm bolts? If = so; how did you wire them? Did you drill them, are they weaker because = of this as someone has mentioned? Also John; What type of mount are you = using? Is it the bed mount that relies on the 6mm bolts? You would not = want to weaken any of these bolts however you wouldn't want any of these = bolts to come out. Al, you mention that you don't have anything safety = wired and haven't experienced anything important coming lose in a car. = I have and it was very important. It was a tube and o-ring related to = the coolant system that was held into the block by one bolt. Needless = to say the one bolt backed out, I lost coolant over heated and I pulled over to the side of the road. I cannot pull over in a plane. = It would be nice if we didn't have to wire anything, however we must = decide what is critical. Bill, I think that your knowledge as a racer = is priceless. We could all benefit from you knowledge and find out what = falls off of motors that we really don't want to fall off. It would = appear that oil drains and coolant drains are the most important in = racing. Not only does it protect your engine from complete failure from = oil loss or coolant loss, but it also protects other racers on the track = as these fluids if spilled onto the track become very slippery. And = once again Ed, you mention that drilling bolts could weaken them, and I = agree. So the question is; When is a bolt or nut to small to drill? = Bill, I also agree with you when you say that "most bolts don't need = safety wire if you remember to tighten them". However what I find = interesting is that no one has mentioned or suggested the use of thread = lock along with proper torquing. And as far as the tension bolts go from what = I understand is that Tracy Crook does not recommend safety wire on these = bolts. He does however recommend the use of rtv sealant on these bolts. = What about sealant and thread lock? Thanks everyone. Keith RV-7A 13-B=20 ------=_NextPart_000_03BB_01C8F0F7.74B77E70 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I think I knew a C.O. like you at Wheelus, = many, many=20 years ago........(:-)
Greg Ward
Lancair 20B in progress
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Lynn=20 Hanover
Sent: Monday, July 28, 2008 = 7:52 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Safety = wire

Torque figures are for clean dry threads. Locking compound is = sort of a=20 lubricant, of unknown value from compound to compound. No locking = compound in=20 aluminum. Eventually the threads come out glued to the bolt. Bolts in = iron or=20 steel threads are OK for locking. Studs in aluminum that in normal = service are=20 permanent can be locktited. Bolts that you expect to remove from time = to time=20 in aluminum will eventually remove the threads, and a repair will be = required.=20 Better to wire the bolt and never have the problem. Studs only need to = be snug=20 in their holes. In steel or iron, Loctite is fine. (They call the = red=20 stuff stud and bearing mount) The blue stuff for aluminum. Any = aircraft=20 bolt or screw can be ordered with a wire feature. It part of its part = number.=20 The wire hole is not a factor in the fasteners strength rating. Nuts = on studs=20 need no locking compound. The stud will come out on the nut. Wire the = nut=20 instead.
 
I did a study once to determin if Uncle Sam was spending too much = for=20 hose clamps used on aircraft.
The troops see the Chinese hose clamp on a nail at the parts = store=20 for 45 cents, and an "Ideal" hose clamp from the bench stock (it = was=20 years ago) and that one is $2.60. So they complain and submit a = savings=20 report.
The government actually buys every kind of worm clamp ever heard = of and=20 in their thousands. So the helicopter mechanic who has a piece of = equipment=20 that uses a non aircraft clamp can get one with the right NSN. But is = not=20 authorized to install it unless the TM or TO calls out that particular = clamp=20 by and NSN.
 
The clamp on the nail at the parts store has only a screw driver = slot to=20 tighten it. No wire hole. It would probably work OK, and it probably = wouldn't=20 come loose between 100 hour checks. Probably........most=20 unlikely........seldom if ever..........not very often at=20 all..................
 
The clamp in the TO or TM has a pedigree. The manufacturer has = electron=20 beam etched a lot number on every clamp made that day. Two clamps from = every=20 lot are retained by the manufacturer forever. It is 316 stainless not = 304=20 stainless. It has a screw driver slot and a hex head. It is drilled = for wire.=20 The wire holes are chamfered. At random during production a number of = clamps=20 will be removed from the packaging line and tested to 150% of rated = capacity.=20 So why do the very best aircraft hose clamps ever made, have a lock = wire=20 feature? Because they all must be wired. In the event you forgot, and = this=20 bird is not chained down in the runup area at 9:00 AM exercising her = new=20 engines because you are still here wiring clamps you should have wired = yesterday, you my E-3 friend will be an E-2 in Afganistan wiring hose = clamps=20 on helicopters 8 hours each day at 130 degrees, and sorting sheep shit = an=20 extra 2 hours each day until your enlistment ends. Wire the = clamps.
 
Lynn E. Hanover
 
 
In a message dated 7/28/2008 8:47:35 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, = ktradcliff@comcast.net = writes:
Wow!  The differences in opinions is so varied when it = comes to=20 the subject of safety wire.  From absolutely nothing to almost=20 everything, and whatever may fall between.  Ed, you have your = oil pan=20 drain plug and your oil filter wired with very  little = else.  John=20 you mentioned that your oil pan bolts are wired.  Are these all = of the=20 small 6mm bolts?  If so; how did you wire them?  Did you = drill=20 them, are they weaker because of this as someone has = mentioned?  Also=20 John; What type of mount are you using?  Is it the bed mount = that=20 relies on the 6mm bolts?  You would not want to weaken any of = these=20 bolts however you wouldn't want any of these bolts to come = out.  Al,=20 you mention that you don't have anything safety wired and haven't=20 experienced anything important coming lose in a car.  I have = and it was=20 very important. It was a tube and o-ring related to the coolant = system that=20 was held into the block by one bolt.  Needless to say the one = bolt=20 backed out, I lost coolant over heated and I
pulled over to the = side of=20 the road.  I cannot pull over in a plane.  It would be = nice if we=20 didn't have to wire anything, however we must decide what is = critical. =20 Bill, I think that your knowledge as a racer is priceless.  We = could=20 all benefit from you knowledge and find out what falls off of motors = that we=20 really don't want to fall off.  It would appear that oil drains = and=20 coolant drains are the most important in racing.  Not only does = it=20 protect your engine from complete failure from oil loss or coolant = loss, but=20 it also protects other racers on the track as these fluids if = spilled onto=20 the track become very slippery.  And once again Ed, you mention = that=20 drilling bolts could weaken them, and I agree.  So the question = is;=20 When is a bolt or nut to small to drill?  Bill, I also agree = with you=20 when you say that "most bolts don't need safety wire if you remember = to=20 tighten them".  However what I find interesting is that no one = has=20 mentioned or suggested the use of thread lock along
with proper=20 torquing.  And as far as the tension bolts go from what I = understand is=20 that Tracy Crook does not recommend safety wire on these = bolts.  He=20 does however recommend the use of rtv sealant on these bolts.  = What=20 about sealant and thread lock?  Thanks=20 everyone.

Keith
RV-7A
13-B=20
------=_NextPart_000_03BB_01C8F0F7.74B77E70--