X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from QMTA06.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.62.56] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.3) with ESMTP id 2983458 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 24 Jun 2008 22:25:41 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=76.96.62.56; envelope-from=gregw@onestopdesign.biz Received: from OMTA10.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.62.28]) by QMTA06.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id i11x1Z00C0cZkys5603n00; Wed, 25 Jun 2008 02:25:02 +0000 Received: from gregoryii ([24.6.40.29]) by OMTA10.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id i2Qx1Z0030dkeQQ3W2Qy3N; Wed, 25 Jun 2008 02:25:02 +0000 X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.0 c=1 a=_JD2mUCtVmwA:10 a=3oc9M9_CAAAA:8 a=lMO-4bFL6DlrZHVAUi0A:9 a=OiemxWZ6sf0Xt47-lqAA:7 a=E-pPvKE4qazi-fPoKp7redJI46QA:4 a=U8Ie8EnqySEA:10 a=XF7b4UCPwd8A:10 a=yP90lsrJS9Bc6fBJDBsA:9 a=D3_ycPaEmyGP-T32d38A:7 a=8k3zr3wgWKkN3C6Cwe-HeE5ZYlwA:4 a=HeoGohOdMD0A:10 a=EzXvWhQp4_cA:10 a=ct1jHBItfXcA:10 Message-ID: <12EAD28F745C4C1E826AEF12003DB9D5@yosemite.onestopdesign.biz> From: "Greg Ward" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo burned up Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 19:27:38 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0524_01C8D630.5CF08520" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5512 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0524_01C8D630.5CF08520 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The turbo I bought, after much consultation, was a GT4088 journal, with = a 1.06 A/R. Also got a 15# Tial wastegate, and a Tial pop-off valve for = the induction side which I plan on using both. Bought some extra = springs also, for ground testing. The Garrett rep and George at ATP = told me that the journal was a better situation in my application, = because it wouldn't destroy the turbo if it wears, whereas a roller = bearing, if it goes, could be a disaster. More will be revealed at = ground testing, which will happen after I get the belly scoop mounted, = along with the radiator and oil cooler. Next couple of weeks are busy = ones...... Greg Ward Lancair 20B N178RG in progress ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Kelly Troyer=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 8:44 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo burned up Scott,=20 Curious to know if the .61 A/R is the turbine housing A/R = ?..........I have heard the opinion that a A/R of closer to1.0 or more might be better for our a/c use to = prevent over speed at altitude (John Slade just reported his turbine A/R is = .96)..........John has 50+ hours on his TO4..........I do not remember hearing how many hours Greg Richter had = on his TO4 before going pure jet.........Paul Yaw (Arizona Rotary Engine Guru) even = recommended a turbine=20 A/R up to 1.3 on info I have seen........Your .61 A/R will definitely = spool up faster (That is why automobile turbos have the lower A/Rs (to reduce turbo lag on = acceleration) but may tend to over speed at high altitude.........The nice thing about it is = that turbine housings with a different A/R are available for retrofit and relatively = inexpensive...........Your installation sounds well thought out........Looking forward to seeing = photos...........FWIW =20 -- Kelly Troyer=20 "Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine=20 "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=20 "Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=20 -------------- Original message from SHIPCHIEF@aol.com: = --------------=20 Dave; Sorry to hear about the Turbo... I ran my engine again today after working on air guidance for the = oil and radiator outlets. I'm running a Turbonetics symetrical TO-4 turbine with Inconel = turbine wheel. It has a 60-1 compressor, P trim and .61 A/R. I hope it = will withstand the heat. Greg Richter was using the same when he had a 13b in his cozy. I = talked to him one day (so long ago) and he reccomended it, so that's = what I got. I suggested some model of waste gate and blow off valve, but = he said to forget about it unless operating it indicated a need. I built up the exhaust manifold from two 2.5" .060 wall 321ss = elbows curved up to the turbo flange in a short fat 'Y' to hold the = turbo close to the engine. Then I welded in 2" to 1.75" nozzles in the = engine flange ehaust ports to keep the exhaust blast away from the = flange welds to the 2.5" tubes that support the turbo weight. I added = two 1/2" ss straps between the flang tops for 'suspenders'.=20 So far I have only run up to about 3500 rpm because I don't trust = myself or the strap tying the tailwheel spring to a cedar tree. My = highest exhaust temp is already over 1200 F. I'm using a CATTO 2 blade left hand equivalent for a 180 Hp O-360 = prop. We figure it will be right for the test flights and absorb 200 Hp = @ 2900 RPM. Any more power would be risky for the RD-1A gearbox, so I = have not added an intercooler yet either. I'm waiting for the summer air show season to get over before I send = the ECM and EM to Tracy to figure out why they dont talk to each = other...He's bound to be busy now, and I can still run my engine to test = cooling and other issues, what ever they may turn up to be. I tried to post pictures of my turbo setup on the FLYROTARY list, = but they didn't go thru. How do I reduce the size of picture to file = the file limit? Oh, and you can upgrade my file on your rotary roster to 'ground = running'. Regards; Scott PS I would like to suggest that all of you post something about your = ROTARY project on YOUTUBE and add FLYROTARY to the title or keyword = list, then we can all quickly identify video posted by one of "our own". ************** Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient = used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=3Daolaut00050000000007) ------=_NextPart_000_0524_01C8D630.5CF08520 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =EF=BB=BF
The turbo I bought, after much consultation, was = a GT4088=20 journal, with a 1.06 A/R.  Also got a 15# Tial wastegate, and a = Tial=20 pop-off valve for the induction side which I plan on using both.  = Bought=20 some extra springs also, for ground testing.  The Garrett rep and = George at=20 ATP told me that the journal was a better situation in my application, = because=20 it wouldn't destroy the turbo if it wears, whereas a roller bearing, if = it goes,=20 could be a disaster.  More will be revealed at ground testing, = which will=20 happen after I get the belly scoop mounted, along with the radiator and = oil=20 cooler.  Next couple of weeks are busy ones......
Greg Ward
Lancair 20B N178RG in progress
 
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Kelly = Troyer
Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 = 8:44=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo = burned=20 up

Scott,
  Curious to know if the .61 A/R is the turbine housing A/R=20 ?..........I have heard the opinion
that a A/R of closer to1.0 or more might be better for our a/c = use to=20 prevent over speed at
altitude (John Slade just reported his turbine A/R is = .96)..........John=20 has 50+ hours on his
TO4..........I do not remember hearing how many hours Greg = Richter had on=20 his TO4 before
going pure jet.........Paul Yaw (Arizona Rotary Engine Guru)=20 even recommended  a turbine
A/R up to 1.3 on info I have seen........Your .61 A/R will=20 definitely spool up faster (That is
why automobile turbos have the lower A/Rs (to reduce turbo lag on = acceleration) but may
tend to over speed at high altitude.........The nice thing about = it is=20 that turbine housings with
a different A/R are available for retrofit and relatively=20 inexpensive...........Your installation
sounds well thought out........Looking forward to seeing=20 photos...........FWIW   
--
Kelly Troyer
"Dyke = Delta"_13B=20 ROTARY Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil = Manifold=20



 
--------------=20 Original message from SHIPCHIEF@aol.com: -------------- =

Dave;
  Sorry to hear about the=20 Turbo...
  I ran my engine again today after working on air = guidance=20 for the oil and radiator outlets.
I'm running a Turbonetics = symetrical=20 TO-4 turbine with Inconel turbine wheel. It has a 60-1 compressor, P = trim=20 and .61 A/R. I hope it will withstand the heat.
  Greg = Richter was=20 using the same when he had a 13b in his cozy. I talked to him one = day (so=20 long ago) and he reccomended it, so that's what I got. I suggested = some=20 model of waste gate and blow off valve, but he said to forget about = it=20 unless operating it indicated a need.
  I built up the = exhaust=20 manifold from two 2.5" .060 wall 321ss elbows curved up to the turbo = flange=20 in a short fat 'Y' to hold the turbo close to the engine. Then I = welded in=20 2" to 1.75" nozzles in the engine flange ehaust ports to keep the = exhaust=20 blast away from the flange welds to the 2.5" tubes that support the = turbo=20 weight. I added two 1/2" ss straps between the flang tops for = 'suspenders'.=20
So far I have only run up to about 3500 rpm because I don't = trust myself=20 or the strap tying the tailwheel spring to a cedar tree. My highest = exhaust=20 temp is already over 1200 F.
I'm using a CATTO 2 blade left hand=20 equivalent for a 180 Hp O-360 prop. We figure it will be right for = the test=20 flights and absorb 200 Hp @ 2900 RPM. Any more power would be risky = for the=20 RD-1A gearbox, so I have not added an intercooler yet either.
I'm = waiting=20 for the summer air show season to get over before I send the ECM and = EM to=20 Tracy to figure out why they dont talk to each other...He's bound to = be busy=20 now, and I can still run my engine to test cooling and other issues, = what=20 ever they may turn up to be.
I tried to post pictures of my turbo = setup=20 on the FLYROTARY list, but they didn't go thru. How do I reduce the = size=20 of  picture to file the file limit?
Oh, and you can upgrade = my file=20 on your rotary roster to 'ground = running'.
Regards;
Scott
PS I=20 would like to suggest that all of you post something about your = ROTARY=20 project on YOUTUBE and add FLYROTARY to the title or keyword list, = then we=20 can all quickly identify video posted by one of "our=20 own".


**************
Gas prices getting you = down?=20 Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used=20 cars.
(http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=3Daolaut00050000000007)=20
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