X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from QMTA08.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.62.80] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.3) with ESMTP id 2967194 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 13 Jun 2008 22:58:29 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=76.96.62.80; envelope-from=cbarber@texasattorney.net Received: from OMTA10.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.62.28]) by QMTA08.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id dSc21Z0060cZkys580an00; Sat, 14 Jun 2008 02:57:51 +0000 Received: from ChristopherNB ([98.200.107.125]) by OMTA10.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id dexo1Z00S2iMkLq3Wexq7Y; Sat, 14 Jun 2008 02:57:51 +0000 X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.0 c=1 a=yTxTnP7XvwQA:10 a=nutm_3yK9fMA:10 a=DvL1jeGxfLZn-mSGb5YA:9 a=jZaT4vzZW3yU6IdfQ_kA:7 a=cp4ayqix1DQ0QdqzgIS27UelAGYA:4 a=iVkDmfvjeKcA:10 a=XCwpvLtFMdsA:10 a=0HbQqGD8AL8A:10 a=yh4IiyhCa8F8pzgAJRsA:9 a=yNvPwS5z2ID2YnZ2-TIA:7 a=bhl-XO9UnPsgn9pC7KVg1W7lNCAA:4 a=HeoGohOdMD0A:10 a=EzXvWhQp4_cA:10 a=AfD3MYMu9mQA:10 Message-ID: <438E639C5AD544C69428E01DBB8BDCFD@ChristopherNB> From: "Christopher Barber" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: First Start - AGAIN DON'T OVERLOOK THE BASICS Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 21:57:49 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_1710_01C8CDA0.852F4C30" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Mail 6.0.6000.16480 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.0.6000.16545 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_1710_01C8CDA0.852F4C30 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ok, taking my own advise of not overlooking the basics, I got out to the = hangar today and started checking for leaks in the intake. I could find = none. Soooooo, I started retracing my steps of the last several days. = Hmmmm, what did I do last? I set the timing by looking in the sparkplug = holes to find the apex seals. Maybe I didn't get the plug wires set = properly....no, they are on firmly....oh, uh oh.....the wires on on = correctly.....but the REAR PLUGS were LOOOOSE. Bam, tightened up the = plugs and the engine started way easier and smoother (gee, ya think), = but still running with not mixture knob. My buddy Blaine Streeter, my aviation company owner/engineer who is = building an RV-7 with an Eggenfeldner Subie engine(even though he is = very pro rotary and has worked with Mistral and stated if he was doing = it again, he would likely choose the Mistral) came by the hangar to help = out. =20 I described the problem with the knob and I stated I checked wires, = d-subs and even the knob itself. He repeated the metered check of the = knob. He took a look at the PCM, asked for a magnifying glass and = stated I had a bad "trace" to the knob. Yep, he showed me the problem. = We got out a soldering iron, repaired the trace and installed the PCM. = Zoom zoom zoom, the rotary came to life easier than ever. Not perfect = yet, but WAAAAAY better. It was getting late so after discussing = various items with his learned input we called it a night VERY GOOD = progress night while focusing on the basics. I now need to get my = timing down better with a timing light and follow a few other small, but = significant observations and get this thing moving forward. =20 Thanks guys, I would hate to think about doing any of this without = y'all. All the best, Chris ----- Original Message -----=20 From: James Maher=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Friday, June 13, 2008 12:37 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: First Start - AGAIN Chris, It looks like Tracy has given you great counsel (as usual). For the Mixture problem there is one step further that you could test = which is to check if the voltage changes at Pin 26 on the EC2 37 pin = connector.when you change the Mixture knob setting. Even if the wire = from the control module to the EC2 checks good and Tracy's test below is = successful there still could be a problem on the control module itself. On my system I was having trouble setting the mixture and found a cold solder joint causing intermittent connection on one of the Mixture = controls leads. I would caution anyone mounting the control module of the EC2 to their = instrument panel to secure it with the proper standoffs and screws (not = supplied with the system) in addition to the nuts that attach the = Program and Mixture controls to the instrument panel. If this is not done then there is tension on the controls and their = leads which may cause them to eventually disconnect. This would be a very BAD thing if it occurs in flight. I did alert Tracy to this issue and I believe that he made a mention = of it on his website (under Service alerts) but I do not believe that = the installation guide makes specific mention of stress relief on the = control module and its associated wiring. Jim Maher Tracy Crook wrote: Only time to hit the high points before hitting the road (wish I = were flying :) Main thing is, once you have identified a problem, = don't keep flogging away at other symptoms until you have fixed the one = at hand. I am assuming your analysis of the non responding mixture = control is correct. Mike and John may be correct when they say that = you could be so far out of tune that the mixture control is not having = the expected effect, but this is rare. BUT, all the symptoms you are relating scream that the mixture = control is not connected to the EC2. This leaves a floating voltage to = the EC2 so the mixture will drift around like a ship without a rudder. = This makes ANY attempt to tune or fix other problems a waste of time and = counterproductive. Fix the mixture control problem or determine whether = it really is a problem befor doing anything else (with the engine). To test the mixture control itself, with the power on, and the panel = connected to the EC2 measure the voltage at the top pin of the pot. It = should vary from zero when fully CCW to +5 volts when fully CW. It = should vary smoothly when between these extreams. Don't short anything = out during this test, use a little spring clip or insulated aligator = clip when taping into stuff liker this. Don't just jam a meter probe in = there which can easily slip and short things out. (been there, done = that). =20 Last hint. The mixture * CAN NOT * make the engine run faster than = normal idle. You have an air leak somewhere. Find it. I assume it is = not the idle setting on the TB? But do this after the mixture control = has been fixed. Tracy On Thu, Jun 12, 2008 at 10:58 PM, Christopher Barber = wrote: I have got my work cut out for me. I went out to the hangar. The = good news is the engine not only started, but started a all my few = attempts. If you remember from previous episodes my old engine (the one = that leaked coolant into the chambers) would tend to start once and only = once a day (or several hours time past). My newly built engine is starting consistently. I played around = with the timing a bit and hopped the CAS a tooth to get it to align a = bit more in the center of its turning area. It didn't seem to make much = of a difference yet, however, I am still having trouble with the Mixture = Knob. It is not making a difference for the A or B controller. I have = checked the d-sub connection on the PCM and the wire from ECU pin 26 to = PCM pin 15 and they all seem to check fine. I will need to climb in the = back of the plane to check the connection at the ECU but I ran out of = time tonight. I am currently getting some strange actions from the computer. I = can start the engine with B if the cold start switch is on. I switch to = A and it want to die, turn of the cold start switch and it smoothes out = nicely. If I start in A, it needs the CSS off. If I started in one and = switch to other, it seems to want to die so I switch back, shut down = then restart in the other position and it will want to die when changed. = Also, when in B, I killed the primaries and it kept running....cut the = secondary's and it wanted to die. When I tried it in A, it would want = to die when the primaries were shut down. The engine is running pretty = fast too. About 1700 rpm ish. I have checked for intake leaks in a = preliminary manner and will do so more when I get to the hangar again. = I don't know how much of this may be attributed to the mixture control = not working. I also seem to be getting oil flow, but I am having some = problems with my oil pressure sensor...sure don't want to be running = with bad oil pressure. So, this is some bad with the good. Gawd, I hate consistent inconsistency. ;0 I am a bit frustrated,buy hey, I got the dang engine to actually = run based on me building it with new parts with a medium street port. = Yeah, I want to get past this stage, but at least I am moving = forward.......kinda. I think my next step will be to verify all my wire = runs. I broke one of our cardinal rules and I changed more than just = one thing at a time. I re-terminated some of the wires due to there = extreme length. I had to do something while I waited for parts from = Mazdatrix and Tracy. On that note, as of now, my PSRU does not seem = to be leaking any oil. So, what say y'all?????? All the best, Chris -=20 From: Tracy Crook=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2008 8:29 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: First Start - AGAIN Never seen an EM2 freeze up but then I've never left it = running over night (not that it should hurt anything). When you say that the mixture knob made no difference, did you = mean that the mixture monitor did not respond or that the engine did not = respond to a change in mixture (egt change, sound of engine, etc). = Assuming for the moment that the engine did not respond, the first thing = to try is the backup controller. Did you try it? Did it act the same? = If it did act the same, it is VERY unlikely that two controllers have = failed in the same way at the same moment in time. (have you ever heard = me say this before? :>) The obvious place to start is the wiring = between front panel and EC2. Specifically the wire from pin 26 on EC2 = to pin 15 on the front panel. (see instructions) Are they connected? = Are they shorted to ground?=20 Tracy (Colorado bound) On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 12:46 PM, Christopher Barber = wrote: Ahhh, the joys of engine development. After fiddling with = getting the timing set (thanks to y'all for this info) I was able to = start my new engine. I ran it for a few minutes while checking for = leaks etc. I was thrilled it started again.....however........ I found one leak coming from the top of the engine where I = had a heater hose inlet sealed off. It was tapped out earlier but only = clamped closed so I installed a bolt with some sealant on it and = recovered it with a end hose piece and clamped it shut. This proved a = better choice. The larger concerns are this. When the engine started the = Engine Monitor was on, and I kept a diligent eye on it. After a couple = of glances at it in the cabin while looking at the engine I realized = that the monitor was not "monitoring". I grabbed my handheld laser temp = monitor and pointed it at the engine and temp was still ok. At first I = just noticed the RPM was not regersting (my first thought was I was = gonna get the NOP signal), then that the temp was not moving. After = shut down, I turned the monitor off and back on and instantly the = monitor started working again. Hmmmmmm. The monitor was mistakenly = left on overnight and I am guessing it "froze up" during this time, but = I would have not thought leaving it on would have done this. It also = worked on my three subsequent short starts. Of course my hope is that = this was an anomaly, but will stay aware that it did happen.=20 However the biggest problems follows. When the engine = started it was running a little fast, but did not seem too bad and I = throttled back and it slowed a bit. When I noticed that the monitor was = not processing data I grabbed the mixture knob and turned it to slow the = engine and to see if it made any difference. Damn, the mixture knob was = not doing ANYTHING. NOTHING. Turning it from left to right made no = difference. Damnit. I cut the fuel at this point, too many issues. = BTW, the prime function, cold start switch and A/B inputs all seemed to = work and would make a difference when operated. But not the mixture = knob. After letting the engine cool a while (the temps did rise = pretty fast per my hand held laser temp gage and I was pushing 220 after = several minutes on a hot/humid Houston summer day) I restarted to see if = the engine monitor was working. It was. However, the mixture know was = not. I re-checked the other inputs and they all worked. The engine was = running pretty rough......gee, the mixture actually makes a difference = . After shut down I disconnected the batteries (I have = installed master battery cut-offs) and then the control module and ECU = and checked the wires between the two. This was just a quick continuity = check and the wire was good. I then took a meter and in my non = electrician mode attempted to check the actual knob. I place leads on = the two prongs that seem to be soldered to the control board and turned = the knob. The numbers changed up and down as expected when I turned the = know....so it seems that the knob itself is not the culprit, and the = wire seems ok. What else should I check and/or try? I kinda need the = mixture control to work.=20 Is there a way to test to to test to determine if this knob = is actually doing anything when the engine is not running?????? Of course my timing sucks as Tracy is about to hit = Colorado.. So any solutions y'all may be able to provide should prove = especially useful. I anxiously await y'alls response. =20 Maybe I should just go ride my loud motorcycle to think = thinks through. Thanks again. All the best, Chris Barber Houston ------=_NextPart_000_1710_01C8CDA0.852F4C30 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Ok, taking my own advise of not = overlooking the=20 basics, I got out to the hangar today and started checking for leaks = in the=20 intake. I could find none.  Soooooo, I started retracing my steps = of the=20 last several days.  Hmmmm, what did I do last? I set the = timing by=20 looking in the sparkplug holes to find the apex seals.  Maybe I = didn't get=20 the plug wires set properly....no, they are on firmly....oh, uh = oh.....the wires=20 on on correctly.....but the REAR PLUGS were LOOOOSE.  Bam, = tightened up the=20 plugs and the engine started way easier and smoother (gee, ya think), = but still=20 running with not mixture knob.
 
My buddy Blaine Streeter, my aviation = company=20 owner/engineer who is building an RV-7 with an Eggenfeldner  Subie=20 engine(even though he is very pro rotary and has worked with Mistral and = stated=20 if he was doing it again, he would likely choose the Mistral) came by = the hangar=20 to help out.  
 
I described the problem with the knob = and I stated=20 I checked wires, d-subs and even the knob itself. He repeated the = metered check=20 of the knob.  He took a look at the PCM, asked for a magnifying = glass and=20 stated I had a bad "trace" to the knob.  Yep, he showed me the=20 problem.  We got out a soldering iron, repaired the trace and = installed the=20 PCM.  Zoom zoom zoom, the rotary came to life easier than = ever.  Not=20 perfect yet, but WAAAAAY better.  It was getting late so after = discussing=20 various items with his learned input we called it a = night    VERY=20 GOOD progress night while focusing on the basics.  I now need to = get my=20 timing down better with a timing light and follow a few other small, but = significant observations and get this thing moving forward.  =
 
Thanks guys, I would hate to think = about doing any=20 of this without y'all.
 
All the best,
 
Chris
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 James = Maher=20
Sent: Friday, June 13, 2008 = 12:37=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: First = Start -=20 AGAIN

Chris,
It looks like Tracy has given you great counsel (as usual).
For the Mixture problem there is one step further that you could = test=20 which is to check if the voltage changes at Pin 26 on the EC2 37 pin=20 connector.when you change the Mixture knob setting. Even if the wire = from the=20 control module to the EC2 checks good and Tracy's test below=20 is successful there still could be a problem on the control = module=20 itself.
 
On my system I was having trouble setting the mixture and found a = cold
solder joint causing intermittent connection on one of the = Mixture=20 controls leads.
I would caution anyone mounting the control module of the EC2 to = their=20 instrument panel to secure it with the proper standoffs and screws = (not=20 supplied with the system) in addition to the nuts that attach the = Program and=20 Mixture controls to the instrument panel.
 If this is not done then there is tension on the controls = and their=20 leads which may cause them to eventually disconnect.
This would be a very BAD thing if it occurs in flight.
I did alert Tracy to this issue and I believe that he made a = mention of=20 it on his website (under Service alerts) but I do not believe that the = installation guide makes specific mention of stress relief on the = control=20 module and its associated wiring.
 
Jim Maher
 


Tracy Crook = <tracy@rotaryaviation.com>=20 wrote:
Only time to hit the high points before hitting the road (wish = I were=20 flying :)  Main thing is, once you have identified a = problem, =20 don't keep flogging away at other symptoms until you have fixed the = one at=20 hand.  I am assuming your analysis of the non responding = mixture=20 control is correct.   Mike and John may be correct = when they=20 say that you could be so far out of tune that the mixture control is = not=20 having the expected effect, but this is rare.
 
BUT, all the symptoms you are relating scream that the mixture = control=20 is not connected to the EC2.   This leaves a floating = voltage to=20 the EC2 so the mixture will drift around like a ship without a = rudder. =20 This makes ANY attempt to tune or fix other problems a waste of time = and=20 counterproductive.  Fix the mixture control problem or = determine=20 whether it really is a problem befor doing anything else (with the=20 engine).
 
To test the mixture control itself, with the power on, and the = panel=20 connected to the EC2 measure the voltage at the top pin of the=20 pot.  It should vary from zero when fully CCW to +5 volts = when=20 fully CW.  It should vary smoothly when between these = extreams. =20 Don't short anything out during this test, use a little spring clip = or=20 insulated aligator clip when taping into stuff liker this.  = Don't just=20 jam a meter probe in there which can easily slip and short things = out. =20 (been there, done that). 
Last hint.  The mixture * CAN NOT * make the engine run = faster=20 than normal idle.  You have an air leak somewhere.  Find = it. =20 I assume it is not the idle setting on the TB?  But do this = after the=20 mixture control has been fixed.
 
Tracy
On Thu, Jun 12, 2008 at 10:58 PM, = Christopher Barber=20 <CBarber@texasattorney.net&g= t;=20 wrote:
I have got my work cut out for = me. I went out=20 to the hangar.  The good news is the engine not only started, = but=20 started a all my few attempts.  If you remember from previous = episodes my old engine (the one that leaked coolant into the = chambers)=20 would tend to start once and only once a day (or several hours = time=20 past).
 
My newly built engine is starting = consistently.  I played around with the timing a bit and = hopped the=20 CAS a tooth to get it to align a bit more in the center of its = turning=20 area. It didn't seem to make much of a difference yet, however, I = am still=20 having trouble with the Mixture Knob. It is not making a = difference for=20 the A or B controller.  I have checked the d-sub connection = on the=20 PCM and the wire from ECU pin 26 to PCM pin 15 and they all seem = to check=20 fine.  I will need to climb in the back of the plane to check = the=20 connection at the ECU but I ran out of time tonight.
 
I am currently getting some = strange actions=20 from the computer.  I can start the engine with B if the cold = start=20 switch is on.  I switch to A and it want to die, turn of the = cold=20 start switch and it smoothes out nicely.  If I start in A, it = needs=20 the CSS off.  If I started in one and switch to other, it = seems to=20 want to die so I switch back, shut down then restart in the other = position=20 and it will want to die when changed.  Also, when in B, I = killed the=20 primaries and it kept running....cut the secondary's and it wanted = to=20 die.  When I tried it in A, it would want to die when the = primaries=20 were shut down.  The engine is running pretty fast too.  = About=20 1700 rpm ish.  I have checked for intake leaks in a = preliminary=20 manner and will do so more when I get to the hangar=20 again.   I don't know how much of this may be = attributed to=20 the mixture control not working.  I also seem to be getting = oil flow,=20 but I am having some problems with my oil = pressure sensor...sure=20 don't want to be running with bad oil pressure. So, this is some = bad with=20 the good.
 
Gawd, I hate consistent = inconsistency.=20 ;0
 
I am a bit frustrated,buy hey, I = got the dang=20 engine to actually run based on me building it with new parts with = a=20 medium street port.  Yeah, I want to get past this stage, but = at=20 least I am moving forward.......kinda.  I think my next step = will be=20 to verify all my wire runs.  I broke one of our cardinal = rules and I=20 changed more than just one thing at a time.  I re-terminated = some of=20 the wires due to there extreme length.  I had to do something = while I=20 waited for parts from Mazdatrix and Tracy. <g>  On that = note,=20 as of now, my PSRU does not seem to be leaking any = oil.
 
So, what say = y'all??????
 
All the best,
 
Chris
 
-
From: Tracy Crook
To: Rotary motors=20 in aircraft
Sent: Wednesday, June = 11, 2008=20 8:29 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] = Re: First=20 Start - AGAIN

Never seen an EM2 freeze up but then I've never left it = running=20 over night (not that it should hurt anything).
 
When you say that the mixture knob made no difference, = did you=20 mean that the mixture monitor did not respond or that the = engine did=20 not respond to a change in mixture (egt change, sound of = engine,=20 etc).   Assuming for the moment that the engine did = not=20 respond, the first thing to try is the backup = controller.  Did=20 you try it?   Did it act the same?  If it did = act the=20 same, it is VERY unlikely that two controllers have failed in = the same=20 way at the same moment in time.  (have you ever heard me = say this=20 before?  :>)  The obvious place to start is the = wiring=20 between front panel and EC2.  Specifically the wire from = pin 26=20 on EC2 to pin 15 on the front panel.  (see instructions) =  =20 Are they connected?  Are they shorted = to ground? 
 
Tracy  (Colorado bound)

On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 12:46 PM, = Christopher=20 Barber <CBarber@texasattorney.net> wrote:
Ahhh, the joys of engine = development.=20 After fiddling with getting the timing set (thanks to y'all = for this=20 info) I was able to start my new engine.  I ran it = for a=20 few minutes while checking for leaks etc.  I was = thrilled it=20 started again.....however........
 
I found one leak coming = from the top of=20 the engine where I had a heater hose inlet sealed off.  = It was=20 tapped out earlier but only clamped closed so I installed a = bolt=20 with some sealant on it and recovered it with a end hose = piece and=20 clamped it shut.  This proved a better = choice.
 
The larger concerns are = this. =20 When the engine started the Engine Monitor was on, and I = kept a=20 diligent eye on it. After a couple of glances at it in the = cabin=20 while looking at the engine I realized that the monitor was = not=20 "monitoring".  I grabbed my handheld laser = temp=20 monitor and pointed it at the engine and temp = was still=20 ok.  At first I just noticed the RPM was not regersting = (my=20 first thought was I was gonna get the NOP signal), then that = the=20 temp was not moving.  After shut down, I turned = the=20 monitor off and back on and instantly the monitor started = working=20 again.  Hmmmmmm.  The monitor was mistakenly = left on=20 overnight and I am guessing it "froze up" during this time, = but I=20 would have not thought leaving it on would have done = this.  It=20 also worked on my three subsequent short starts. Of = course my=20 hope is that this was an anomaly, but will stay = aware that=20 it did happen. 
 
However the biggest = problems follows.=20 When the engine started it was running a little fast, but = did not=20 seem too bad and I throttled back and it slowed a = bit. When I=20 noticed that the monitor was not processing data I grabbed=20 the mixture knob and turned it to slow the engine and = to see if=20 it made any difference.  Damn, the mixture knob was not = doing=20 ANYTHING.  NOTHING.  Turning it from left to=20 right made no = difference.   Damnit.  I cut=20 the fuel at this point, too many issues.  BTW, the = prime=20 function, cold start switch and A/B inputs all seemed = to work=20 and would make a difference when operated.  But not the = mixture=20 knob.
 
After letting = the engine cool=20 a while (the temps did rise pretty fast per my hand=20 held laser temp gage and I was pushing 220 after = several=20 minutes on a hot/humid Houston summer day) I restarted to = see if the=20 engine monitor was working.  It was. However, = the mixture=20 know was not.  I re-checked the other inputs and = they all=20 worked.  The engine was running = pretty rough......gee, the=20 mixture actually makes a difference <g>.
 
After shut down = I disconnected the=20 batteries (I have installed master battery = cut-offs) and=20 then the control module and ECU and checked the wires = between=20 the two.  This was just a quick continuity check and = the wire=20 was good.  I then took a meter and in my non = electrician mode=20 attempted to check the actual knob.  I place leads = on the two prongs that seem to be soldered to the = control board=20 and turned the knob.  The numbers changed up and down = as=20 expected when I turned the know....so it seems that the knob = itself=20 is not the culprit, and the wire seems ok.  What else = should I=20 check and/or try?  I kinda need the mixture control=20 to work.
 
Is there a way to test to = to test to=20 determine if this knob is actually doing anything when the = engine is=20 not running??????
 
Of course my timing sucks = as Tracy is=20 about to hit Colorado..  So any solutions y'all may be = able to=20 provide should prove especially useful.
 
I anxiously await y'alls=20 response. 
 
Maybe I should just go ride = my loud=20 motorcycle to think thinks through. <g>
 
Thanks again.
 
All the best,
 
Chris Barber
Houston
 
 



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