X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from fed1rmmtao101.cox.net ([68.230.241.45] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.3) with ESMTP id 2965830 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 13 Jun 2008 00:21:57 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=68.230.241.45; envelope-from=rv-4mike@cox.net Received: from fed1rmimpo01.cox.net ([70.169.32.71]) by fed1rmmtao101.cox.net (InterMail vM.7.08.02.01 201-2186-121-102-20070209) with ESMTP id <20080613042117.JAVO1247.fed1rmmtao101.cox.net@fed1rmimpo01.cox.net> for ; Fri, 13 Jun 2008 00:21:17 -0400 Received: from wills ([68.105.85.56]) by fed1rmimpo01.cox.net with bizsmtp id dGMF1Z00D1CvZmk03GMHuM; Fri, 13 Jun 2008 00:21:17 -0400 Message-ID: <00a501c8cd0c$ebc83f90$38556944@wills> From: "Mike Wills" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: First Start - AGAIN Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 21:21:15 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00A2_01C8CCD2.3F1D1C50" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00A2_01C8CCD2.3F1D1C50 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Chris, I went through many of the same issues a few months back when I was = first starting my engine. Lots of back and forth with Tracy got most of = it sorted out. My most significant issues were: 1) An ECU that badly needed to be updated by Tracy. 2) A manual that badly needed to be updated. The tuning procedure = described in the manual I started with was exactly opposite of what's = currently recommended. 3) My injectors were flowing considerably more than stock. I was way = rich, particularly at low rpms (off the scale on my mixture monitor) so = the mixture knob didnt seem to make a difference. My injectors were = tweaked by RC Engineering before being installed. 4) I needed to move my secondary staging point up a little (this still = needs some tweaking - every once in a while I get a pretty good backfire = if I transition through this region too slowly). 5) My vacuum gauge wasnt good enough. Once I got a better gauge I found = lots of pulsing in the MAP. I added a little capicity ( a little = reservoir) to dampen this out. It helped a lot. 6) Maybe the biggest issue was not really having a frame of reference = once most of the major stuff was addressed. I thought the engine sounded = pretty rough at lower RPMs (under 2000). Dave Leonard came down and I = checked his out from in the cockpit - sounded just like mine. I then had = him get in mine and run it up - sounded great from outside! I think the = problem was a combination of a sheetmetal airplane with no interior = upholstery, the gearbox rattling a little (mine RD-1 is a little looser = than typical), and simply not knowing what the thing should sound and = act like. Trying to compare it to my Lyc powered RV-6 just doesnt work. I still want to get one of Ed's EFISM gauges (I dont have Tracy's EM2 - = I bought a monitor way back before Tracy had the EM2 available). I think = the EFISM (or the EM2) will be a big help in filling in gaps in the MAP = table. Anyway, if your experience is anything like mine it will take a while to = sort out, but stick with it and it will come together. Mike Wills RV-4 N144MW ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Christopher Barber=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2008 7:58 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: First Start - AGAIN I have got my work cut out for me. I went out to the hangar. The good = news is the engine not only started, but started a all my few attempts. = If you remember from previous episodes my old engine (the one that = leaked coolant into the chambers) would tend to start once and only once = a day (or several hours time past). My newly built engine is starting consistently. I played around with = the timing a bit and hopped the CAS a tooth to get it to align a bit = more in the center of its turning area. It didn't seem to make much of a = difference yet, however, I am still having trouble with the Mixture = Knob. It is not making a difference for the A or B controller. I have = checked the d-sub connection on the PCM and the wire from ECU pin 26 to = PCM pin 15 and they all seem to check fine. I will need to climb in the = back of the plane to check the connection at the ECU but I ran out of = time tonight. I am currently getting some strange actions from the computer. I can = start the engine with B if the cold start switch is on. I switch to A = and it want to die, turn of the cold start switch and it smoothes out = nicely. If I start in A, it needs the CSS off. If I started in one and = switch to other, it seems to want to die so I switch back, shut down = then restart in the other position and it will want to die when changed. = Also, when in B, I killed the primaries and it kept running....cut the = secondary's and it wanted to die. When I tried it in A, it would want = to die when the primaries were shut down. The engine is running pretty = fast too. About 1700 rpm ish. I have checked for intake leaks in a = preliminary manner and will do so more when I get to the hangar again. = I don't know how much of this may be attributed to the mixture control = not working. I also seem to be getting oil flow, but I am having some = problems with my oil pressure sensor...sure don't want to be running = with bad oil pressure. So, this is some bad with the good. Gawd, I hate consistent inconsistency. ;0 I am a bit frustrated,buy hey, I got the dang engine to actually run = based on me building it with new parts with a medium street port. Yeah, = I want to get past this stage, but at least I am moving = forward.......kinda. I think my next step will be to verify all my wire = runs. I broke one of our cardinal rules and I changed more than just = one thing at a time. I re-terminated some of the wires due to there = extreme length. I had to do something while I waited for parts from = Mazdatrix and Tracy. On that note, as of now, my PSRU does not seem = to be leaking any oil. So, what say y'all?????? All the best, Chris -=20 From: Tracy Crook=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2008 8:29 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: First Start - AGAIN Never seen an EM2 freeze up but then I've never left it running = over night (not that it should hurt anything). When you say that the mixture knob made no difference, did you = mean that the mixture monitor did not respond or that the engine did not = respond to a change in mixture (egt change, sound of engine, etc). = Assuming for the moment that the engine did not respond, the first thing = to try is the backup controller. Did you try it? Did it act the same? = If it did act the same, it is VERY unlikely that two controllers have = failed in the same way at the same moment in time. (have you ever heard = me say this before? :>) The obvious place to start is the wiring = between front panel and EC2. Specifically the wire from pin 26 on EC2 = to pin 15 on the front panel. (see instructions) Are they connected? = Are they shorted to ground?=20 Tracy (Colorado bound) On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 12:46 PM, Christopher Barber = wrote: Ahhh, the joys of engine development. After fiddling with = getting the timing set (thanks to y'all for this info) I was able to = start my new engine. I ran it for a few minutes while checking for = leaks etc. I was thrilled it started again.....however........ I found one leak coming from the top of the engine where I had a = heater hose inlet sealed off. It was tapped out earlier but only = clamped closed so I installed a bolt with some sealant on it and = recovered it with a end hose piece and clamped it shut. This proved a = better choice. The larger concerns are this. When the engine started the = Engine Monitor was on, and I kept a diligent eye on it. After a couple = of glances at it in the cabin while looking at the engine I realized = that the monitor was not "monitoring". I grabbed my handheld laser temp = monitor and pointed it at the engine and temp was still ok. At first I = just noticed the RPM was not regersting (my first thought was I was = gonna get the NOP signal), then that the temp was not moving. After = shut down, I turned the monitor off and back on and instantly the = monitor started working again. Hmmmmmm. The monitor was mistakenly = left on overnight and I am guessing it "froze up" during this time, but = I would have not thought leaving it on would have done this. It also = worked on my three subsequent short starts. Of course my hope is that = this was an anomaly, but will stay aware that it did happen.=20 However the biggest problems follows. When the engine started it = was running a little fast, but did not seem too bad and I throttled back = and it slowed a bit. When I noticed that the monitor was not processing = data I grabbed the mixture knob and turned it to slow the engine and to = see if it made any difference. Damn, the mixture knob was not doing = ANYTHING. NOTHING. Turning it from left to right made no difference. = Damnit. I cut the fuel at this point, too many issues. BTW, the prime = function, cold start switch and A/B inputs all seemed to work and would = make a difference when operated. But not the mixture knob. After letting the engine cool a while (the temps did rise pretty = fast per my hand held laser temp gage and I was pushing 220 after = several minutes on a hot/humid Houston summer day) I restarted to see if = the engine monitor was working. It was. However, the mixture know was = not. I re-checked the other inputs and they all worked. The engine was = running pretty rough......gee, the mixture actually makes a difference = . After shut down I disconnected the batteries (I have installed = master battery cut-offs) and then the control module and ECU and checked = the wires between the two. This was just a quick continuity check and = the wire was good. I then took a meter and in my non electrician mode = attempted to check the actual knob. I place leads on the two prongs = that seem to be soldered to the control board and turned the knob. The = numbers changed up and down as expected when I turned the know....so it = seems that the knob itself is not the culprit, and the wire seems ok. = What else should I check and/or try? I kinda need the mixture control = to work.=20 Is there a way to test to to test to determine if this knob is = actually doing anything when the engine is not running?????? Of course my timing sucks as Tracy is about to hit Colorado.. = So any solutions y'all may be able to provide should prove especially = useful. I anxiously await y'alls response. =20 Maybe I should just go ride my loud motorcycle to think thinks = through. Thanks again. All the best, Chris Barber Houston ------=_NextPart_000_00A2_01C8CCD2.3F1D1C50 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Chris,
 
 I went through many of the same = issues a few=20 months back when I was first starting my engine. Lots of back and forth = with=20 Tracy got most of it sorted out. My most significant issues = were:
 
1) An ECU that badly needed to be = updated by=20 Tracy.
2) A manual that badly needed to be = updated. The=20 tuning procedure described in the manual I started with was exactly = opposite of=20 what's currently recommended.
3) My injectors were flowing = considerably more than=20 stock. I was way rich, particularly at low rpms (off the scale on = my=20 mixture monitor) so the mixture knob didnt seem to make a difference. My = injectors were tweaked by RC Engineering before being = installed.
4) I needed to move my secondary = staging point up a=20 little (this still needs some tweaking - every once in a while I get a = pretty=20 good backfire if I transition through this region too = slowly).
5) My vacuum gauge wasnt good enough. = Once I got a=20 better gauge I found lots of pulsing in the MAP. I added a little = capicity ( a=20 little reservoir) to dampen this out. It helped a lot.
6) Maybe the biggest issue was not = really having a=20 frame of reference once most of the major stuff was addressed. I thought = the=20 engine sounded pretty rough at lower RPMs (under 2000). Dave Leonard = came down=20 and I checked his out from in the cockpit - sounded just like mine. I = then had=20 him get in mine and run it up - sounded great from outside! I think the = problem=20 was a combination of a sheetmetal airplane with no interior upholstery, = the=20 gearbox rattling a little (mine RD-1 is a little looser than typical), = and=20 simply not knowing what the thing should sound and act like. Trying to = compare=20 it to my Lyc powered RV-6 just doesnt work.
 
I still want to get one of Ed's EFISM = gauges (I=20 dont have Tracy's EM2 - I bought a monitor way back before Tracy had the = EM2=20 available). I think the EFISM (or the EM2) will be a big help in filling = in gaps=20 in the MAP table.
 
Anyway, if your experience is anything = like mine it=20 will take a while to sort out, but stick with it and it will come=20 together.
 
Mike Wills
RV-4 N144MW
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Christopher Barber =
Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2008 = 7:58=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: First = Start -=20 AGAIN

I have got my work cut out for me. I = went out to=20 the hangar.  The good news is the engine not only started, but = started a=20 all my few attempts.  If you remember from previous episodes my = old=20 engine (the one that leaked coolant into the chambers) would tend to = start=20 once and only once a day (or several hours time past).
 
My newly built engine is starting=20 consistently.  I played around with the timing a bit and hopped = the CAS a=20 tooth to get it to align a bit more in the center of its turning area. = It=20 didn't seem to make much of a difference yet, however, I am still = having=20 trouble with the Mixture Knob. It is not making a difference for the A = or B=20 controller.  I have checked the d-sub connection on the PCM and = the wire=20 from ECU pin 26 to PCM pin 15 and they all seem to check fine.  I = will=20 need to climb in the back of the plane to check the connection at the = ECU but=20 I ran out of time tonight.
 
I am currently getting some strange = actions from=20 the computer.  I can start the engine with B if the cold start = switch is=20 on.  I switch to A and it want to die, turn of the cold start = switch and=20 it smoothes out nicely.  If I start in A, it needs the CSS = off.  If=20 I started in one and switch to other, it seems to want to die so I = switch=20 back, shut down then restart in the other position and it will want to = die=20 when changed.  Also, when in B, I killed the primaries and it = kept=20 running....cut the secondary's and it wanted to die.  When I = tried it in=20 A, it would want to die when the primaries were shut down.  The = engine is=20 running pretty fast too.  About 1700 rpm ish.  I have = checked for=20 intake leaks in a preliminary manner and will do so more when I get to = the=20 hangar again.   I don't know how much of this may be = attributed=20 to the mixture control not working.  I also seem to be getting = oil flow,=20 but I am having some problems with my oil pressure sensor...sure = don't=20 want to be running with bad oil pressure. So, this is some bad with = the=20 good.
 
Gawd, I hate consistent = inconsistency.=20 ;0
 
I am a bit frustrated,buy hey, I got = the dang=20 engine to actually run based on me building it with new parts with a = medium=20 street port.  Yeah, I want to get past this stage, but at least I = am=20 moving forward.......kinda.  I think my next step will be to = verify all=20 my wire runs.  I broke one of our cardinal rules and I changed = more than=20 just one thing at a time.  I re-terminated some of the wires due = to there=20 extreme length.  I had to do something while I waited for parts = from=20 Mazdatrix and Tracy. <g>  On that note, as of now, my PSRU = does not=20 seem to be leaking any oil.
 
So, what say y'all??????
 
All the best,
 
Chris
 
-
From:=20 Tracy Crook
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20
Sent: Wednesday, June 11, = 2008 8:29=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = First Start=20 - AGAIN

Never seen an EM2 freeze up but then I've never left it = running over=20 night (not that it should hurt anything).
 
When you say that the mixture knob made no difference, did = you mean=20 that the mixture monitor did not respond or that the engine did = not=20 respond to a change in mixture (egt change, sound of engine,=20 etc).   Assuming for the moment that the engine did not = respond,=20 the first thing to try is the backup controller.  Did you try = it?   Did it act the same?  If it did act the same, = it is=20 VERY unlikely that two controllers have failed in the same way at = the same=20 moment in time.  (have you ever heard me say this before?=20  :>)  The obvious place to start is the wiring = between front=20 panel and EC2.  Specifically the wire from pin 26 on EC2 to = pin 15 on=20 the front panel.  (see instructions)   Are they = connected? =20 Are they shorted to ground? 
 
Tracy  (Colorado bound)

On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 12:46 PM, = Christopher=20 Barber <CBarber@texasattorney.net&g= t;=20 wrote:
Ahhh, the joys of engine = development. After=20 fiddling with getting the timing set (thanks to y'all for this=20 info) I was able to start my new engine.  I ran it for = a few=20 minutes while checking for leaks etc.  I was thrilled it = started=20 again.....however........
 
I found one leak coming from = the top of the=20 engine where I had a heater hose inlet sealed off.  It was = tapped=20 out earlier but only clamped closed so I installed a bolt with = some=20 sealant on it and recovered it with a end hose piece and clamped = it=20 shut.  This proved a better choice.
 
The larger concerns are = this.  When=20 the engine started the Engine Monitor was on, and I kept a = diligent eye=20 on it. After a couple of glances at it in the cabin while = looking at the=20 engine I realized that the monitor was not = "monitoring".  I=20 grabbed my handheld laser temp monitor and pointed it = at the=20 engine and temp was still ok.  At first I just noticed = the RPM=20 was not regersting (my first thought was I was gonna get the NOP = signal), then that the temp was not moving.  After = shut down,=20 I turned the monitor off and back on and instantly the monitor = started=20 working again.  Hmmmmmm.  The monitor was = mistakenly left=20 on overnight and I am guessing it "froze up" during this time, = but I=20 would have not thought leaving it on would have done this.  = It also=20 worked on my three subsequent short starts. Of course my = hope is=20 that this was an anomaly, but will stay aware that it = did=20 happen. 
 
However the biggest problems = follows. When=20 the engine started it was running a little fast, but did not = seem too=20 bad and I throttled back and it slowed a bit. When I = noticed that=20 the monitor was not processing data I grabbed the mixture = knob and=20 turned it to slow the engine and to see if it made any = difference. =20 Damn, the mixture knob was not doing ANYTHING.  = NOTHING. =20 Turning it from left to right made no=20 difference.   Damnit.  I cut the fuel at = this point,=20 too many issues.  BTW, the prime function, cold start = switch and=20 A/B inputs all seemed to work and would make a difference = when=20 operated.  But not the mixture knob.
 
After letting = the engine cool a=20 while (the temps did rise pretty fast per my hand = held laser=20 temp gage and I was pushing 220 after several minutes on a = hot/humid=20 Houston summer day) I restarted to see if the engine monitor was = working.  It was. However, the mixture know was=20 not.  I re-checked the other inputs and they all = worked. =20 The engine was running pretty rough......gee, the mixture = actually=20 makes a difference <g>.
 
After shut down = I disconnected the=20 batteries (I have installed master battery = cut-offs) and then=20 the control module and ECU and checked the wires between = the=20 two.  This was just a quick continuity check and the wire = was=20 good.  I then took a meter and in my non electrician mode = attempted=20 to check the actual knob.  I place leads on the = two=20 prongs that seem to be soldered to the control board and turned = the=20 knob.  The numbers changed up and down as expected when I = turned=20 the know....so it seems that the knob itself is not the culprit, = and the=20 wire seems ok.  What else should I check and/or try?  = I kinda=20 need the mixture control to work.
 
Is there a way to test to to = test to=20 determine if this knob is actually doing anything when the = engine is not=20 running??????
 
Of course my timing sucks as = Tracy is about=20 to hit Colorado..  So any solutions y'all may be able to = provide=20 should prove especially useful.
 
I anxiously await y'alls = response. =20
 
Maybe I should just go ride my = loud=20 motorcycle to think thinks through. <g>
 
Thanks again.
 
All the best,
 
Chris Barber
Houston
 
 

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