X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from QMTA08.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.62.80] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.3) with ESMTP id 2965759 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 12 Jun 2008 22:59:37 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=76.96.62.80; envelope-from=cbarber@texasattorney.net Received: from OMTA14.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.62.60]) by QMTA08.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id d3hp1Z0011HzFnQ580gC00; Fri, 13 Jun 2008 02:59:00 +0000 Received: from ChristopherNB ([98.200.107.125]) by OMTA14.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id dEyy1Z0082iMkLq3aEz0fu; Fri, 13 Jun 2008 02:59:00 +0000 X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.0 c=1 a=GlMPMFWf2VkA:10 a=8qBd54ZavyExqdPwmyYA:9 a=_WRfMBeW-y-lriTBqLYA:7 a=0rjLW0uVXIwrQCMwZllAK3i7804A:4 a=XCwpvLtFMdsA:10 a=gi0PWCVxevcA:10 a=xKKEEXfwi8HIM6m_LY8A:9 a=kSs5tPMSAIih7Vr6wXkA:7 a=kSL9GbCN9brqXJr-UxNtIlSws_4A:4 a=iVkDmfvjeKcA:10 a=EzXvWhQp4_cA:10 a=AfD3MYMu9mQA:10 Message-ID: From: "Christopher Barber" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: First Start - AGAIN Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 21:58:58 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_3002_01C8CCD7.83CD8BA0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Mail 6.0.6000.16480 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.0.6000.16545 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_3002_01C8CCD7.83CD8BA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have got my work cut out for me. I went out to the hangar. The good = news is the engine not only started, but started a all my few attempts. = If you remember from previous episodes my old engine (the one that = leaked coolant into the chambers) would tend to start once and only once = a day (or several hours time past). My newly built engine is starting consistently. I played around with = the timing a bit and hopped the CAS a tooth to get it to align a bit = more in the center of its turning area. It didn't seem to make much of a = difference yet, however, I am still having trouble with the Mixture = Knob. It is not making a difference for the A or B controller. I have = checked the d-sub connection on the PCM and the wire from ECU pin 26 to = PCM pin 15 and they all seem to check fine. I will need to climb in the = back of the plane to check the connection at the ECU but I ran out of = time tonight. I am currently getting some strange actions from the computer. I can = start the engine with B if the cold start switch is on. I switch to A = and it want to die, turn of the cold start switch and it smoothes out = nicely. If I start in A, it needs the CSS off. If I started in one and = switch to other, it seems to want to die so I switch back, shut down = then restart in the other position and it will want to die when changed. = Also, when in B, I killed the primaries and it kept running....cut the = secondary's and it wanted to die. When I tried it in A, it would want = to die when the primaries were shut down. The engine is running pretty = fast too. About 1700 rpm ish. I have checked for intake leaks in a = preliminary manner and will do so more when I get to the hangar again. = I don't know how much of this may be attributed to the mixture control = not working. I also seem to be getting oil flow, but I am having some = problems with my oil pressure sensor...sure don't want to be running = with bad oil pressure. So, this is some bad with the good. Gawd, I hate consistent inconsistency. ;0 I am a bit frustrated,buy hey, I got the dang engine to actually run = based on me building it with new parts with a medium street port. Yeah, = I want to get past this stage, but at least I am moving = forward.......kinda. I think my next step will be to verify all my wire = runs. I broke one of our cardinal rules and I changed more than just = one thing at a time. I re-terminated some of the wires due to there = extreme length. I had to do something while I waited for parts from = Mazdatrix and Tracy. On that note, as of now, my PSRU does not seem = to be leaking any oil. So, what say y'all?????? All the best, Chris -=20 From: Tracy Crook=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2008 8:29 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: First Start - AGAIN Never seen an EM2 freeze up but then I've never left it running over = night (not that it should hurt anything). When you say that the mixture knob made no difference, did you mean = that the mixture monitor did not respond or that the engine did not = respond to a change in mixture (egt change, sound of engine, etc). = Assuming for the moment that the engine did not respond, the first thing = to try is the backup controller. Did you try it? Did it act the same? = If it did act the same, it is VERY unlikely that two controllers have = failed in the same way at the same moment in time. (have you ever heard = me say this before? :>) The obvious place to start is the wiring = between front panel and EC2. Specifically the wire from pin 26 on EC2 = to pin 15 on the front panel. (see instructions) Are they connected? = Are they shorted to ground?=20 Tracy (Colorado bound) On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 12:46 PM, Christopher Barber = wrote: Ahhh, the joys of engine development. After fiddling with getting = the timing set (thanks to y'all for this info) I was able to start my = new engine. I ran it for a few minutes while checking for leaks etc. I = was thrilled it started again.....however........ I found one leak coming from the top of the engine where I had a = heater hose inlet sealed off. It was tapped out earlier but only = clamped closed so I installed a bolt with some sealant on it and = recovered it with a end hose piece and clamped it shut. This proved a = better choice. The larger concerns are this. When the engine started the Engine = Monitor was on, and I kept a diligent eye on it. After a couple of = glances at it in the cabin while looking at the engine I realized that = the monitor was not "monitoring". I grabbed my handheld laser temp = monitor and pointed it at the engine and temp was still ok. At first I = just noticed the RPM was not regersting (my first thought was I was = gonna get the NOP signal), then that the temp was not moving. After = shut down, I turned the monitor off and back on and instantly the = monitor started working again. Hmmmmmm. The monitor was mistakenly = left on overnight and I am guessing it "froze up" during this time, but = I would have not thought leaving it on would have done this. It also = worked on my three subsequent short starts. Of course my hope is that = this was an anomaly, but will stay aware that it did happen.=20 However the biggest problems follows. When the engine started it = was running a little fast, but did not seem too bad and I throttled back = and it slowed a bit. When I noticed that the monitor was not processing = data I grabbed the mixture knob and turned it to slow the engine and to = see if it made any difference. Damn, the mixture knob was not doing = ANYTHING. NOTHING. Turning it from left to right made no difference. = Damnit. I cut the fuel at this point, too many issues. BTW, the prime = function, cold start switch and A/B inputs all seemed to work and would = make a difference when operated. But not the mixture knob. After letting the engine cool a while (the temps did rise pretty = fast per my hand held laser temp gage and I was pushing 220 after = several minutes on a hot/humid Houston summer day) I restarted to see if = the engine monitor was working. It was. However, the mixture know was = not. I re-checked the other inputs and they all worked. The engine was = running pretty rough......gee, the mixture actually makes a difference = . After shut down I disconnected the batteries (I have installed = master battery cut-offs) and then the control module and ECU and checked = the wires between the two. This was just a quick continuity check and = the wire was good. I then took a meter and in my non electrician mode = attempted to check the actual knob. I place leads on the two prongs = that seem to be soldered to the control board and turned the knob. The = numbers changed up and down as expected when I turned the know....so it = seems that the knob itself is not the culprit, and the wire seems ok. = What else should I check and/or try? I kinda need the mixture control = to work.=20 Is there a way to test to to test to determine if this knob is = actually doing anything when the engine is not running?????? Of course my timing sucks as Tracy is about to hit Colorado.. So = any solutions y'all may be able to provide should prove especially = useful. I anxiously await y'alls response. =20 Maybe I should just go ride my loud motorcycle to think thinks = through. Thanks again. All the best, Chris Barber Houston ------=_NextPart_000_3002_01C8CCD7.83CD8BA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I have got my work cut out for me. I = went out to=20 the hangar.  The good news is the engine not only started, but = started a=20 all my few attempts.  If you remember from previous episodes my old = engine=20 (the one that leaked coolant into the chambers) would tend to start once = and=20 only once a day (or several hours time past).
 
My newly built engine is starting=20 consistently.  I played around with the timing a bit and hopped the = CAS a=20 tooth to get it to align a bit more in the center of its turning area. = It didn't=20 seem to make much of a difference yet, however, I am still having = trouble with=20 the Mixture Knob. It is not making a difference for the A or B = controller. =20 I have checked the d-sub connection on the PCM and the wire from ECU pin = 26 to=20 PCM pin 15 and they all seem to check fine.  I will need to climb = in the=20 back of the plane to check the connection at the ECU but I ran out of = time=20 tonight.
 
I am currently getting some strange = actions from=20 the computer.  I can start the engine with B if the cold start = switch is=20 on.  I switch to A and it want to die, turn of the cold start = switch and it=20 smoothes out nicely.  If I start in A, it needs the CSS off.  = If I=20 started in one and switch to other, it seems to want to die so I switch = back,=20 shut down then restart in the other position and it will want to die = when=20 changed.  Also, when in B, I killed the primaries and it kept=20 running....cut the secondary's and it wanted to die.  When I tried = it in A,=20 it would want to die when the primaries were shut down.  The engine = is=20 running pretty fast too.  About 1700 rpm ish.  I have checked = for=20 intake leaks in a preliminary manner and will do so more when I get to = the=20 hangar again.   I don't know how much of this may be = attributed=20 to the mixture control not working.  I also seem to be getting oil = flow,=20 but I am having some problems with my oil pressure sensor...sure = don't want=20 to be running with bad oil pressure. So, this is some bad with the=20 good.
 
Gawd, I hate consistent inconsistency.=20 ;0
 
I am a bit frustrated,buy hey, I got = the dang=20 engine to actually run based on me building it with new parts with a = medium=20 street port.  Yeah, I want to get past this stage, but at least I = am moving=20 forward.......kinda.  I think my next step will be to verify all my = wire=20 runs.  I broke one of our cardinal rules and I changed more than = just one=20 thing at a time.  I re-terminated some of the wires due to there = extreme=20 length.  I had to do something while I waited for parts from = Mazdatrix and=20 Tracy. <g>  On that note, as of now, my PSRU does not seem to = be=20 leaking any oil.
 
So, what say y'all??????
 
All the best,
 
Chris
 
-
From:=20 Tracy Crook
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20
Sent: Wednesday, June 11, = 2008 8:29=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = First Start -=20 AGAIN

Never seen an EM2 freeze up but then I've never left it running = over=20 night (not that it should hurt anything).
 
When you say that the mixture knob made no difference, did you = mean=20 that the mixture monitor did not respond or that the engine did not = respond=20 to a change in mixture (egt change, sound of engine, = etc).  =20 Assuming for the moment that the engine did not respond, the first = thing to=20 try is the backup controller.  Did you try it?   Did = it act=20 the same?  If it did act the same, it is VERY unlikely that two = controllers have failed in the same way at the same moment in = time. =20 (have you ever heard me say this before?  :>)  The = obvious=20 place to start is the wiring between front panel and EC2.  = Specifically=20 the wire from pin 26 on EC2 to pin 15 on the front panel.  (see = instructions)   Are they connected?  Are they shorted=20 to ground? 
 
Tracy  (Colorado bound)

On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 12:46 PM, = Christopher Barber=20 <CBarber@texasattorney.net&g= t;=20 wrote:
Ahhh, the joys of engine = development. After=20 fiddling with getting the timing set (thanks to y'all for this=20 info) I was able to start my new engine.  I ran it for a = few=20 minutes while checking for leaks etc.  I was thrilled it = started=20 again.....however........
 
I found one leak coming from the = top of the=20 engine where I had a heater hose inlet sealed off.  It was = tapped out=20 earlier but only clamped closed so I installed a bolt with some = sealant on=20 it and recovered it with a end hose piece and clamped it = shut.  This=20 proved a better choice.
 
The larger concerns are = this.  When the=20 engine started the Engine Monitor was on, and I kept a diligent = eye on it.=20 After a couple of glances at it in the cabin while looking at the = engine I=20 realized that the monitor was not "monitoring".  I = grabbed=20 my handheld laser temp monitor and pointed it at the = engine and=20 temp was still ok.  At first I just noticed the RPM was = not=20 regersting (my first thought was I was gonna get the NOP signal), = then=20 that the temp was not moving.  After shut down, I turned = the=20 monitor off and back on and instantly the monitor started working=20 again.  Hmmmmmm.  The monitor was mistakenly left = on=20 overnight and I am guessing it "froze up" during this time, but I = would=20 have not thought leaving it on would have done this.  It also = worked=20 on my three subsequent short starts. Of course my hope is=20 that this was an anomaly, but will stay aware that it = did=20 happen. 
 
However the biggest problems = follows. When=20 the engine started it was running a little fast, but did not seem = too bad=20 and I throttled back and it slowed a bit. When I noticed that = the=20 monitor was not processing data I grabbed the mixture knob = and turned=20 it to slow the engine and to see if it made any difference.  = Damn,=20 the mixture knob was not doing ANYTHING.  NOTHING.  = Turning it=20 from left to right made no = difference.   Damnit. =20 I cut the fuel at this point, too many issues.  BTW, the = prime=20 function, cold start switch and A/B inputs all seemed to work = and=20 would make a difference when operated.  But not the mixture=20 knob.
 
After letting = the engine cool a=20 while (the temps did rise pretty fast per my hand = held laser=20 temp gage and I was pushing 220 after several minutes on a = hot/humid=20 Houston summer day) I restarted to see if the engine monitor was=20 working.  It was. However, the mixture know was=20 not.  I re-checked the other inputs and they all = worked. =20 The engine was running pretty rough......gee, the mixture = actually=20 makes a difference <g>.
 
After shut down = I disconnected the=20 batteries (I have installed master battery cut-offs) and = then=20 the control module and ECU and checked the wires between the=20 two.  This was just a quick continuity check and the wire was = good.  I then took a meter and in my non electrician mode = attempted=20 to check the actual knob.  I place leads on the two = prongs=20 that seem to be soldered to the control board and turned the = knob. =20 The numbers changed up and down as expected when I turned the = know....so=20 it seems that the knob itself is not the culprit, and the wire = seems=20 ok.  What else should I check and/or try?  I kinda need = the=20 mixture control to work.
 
Is there a way to test to to test = to=20 determine if this knob is actually doing anything when the engine = is not=20 running??????
 
Of course my timing sucks as = Tracy is about=20 to hit Colorado..  So any solutions y'all may be able to = provide=20 should prove especially useful.
 
I anxiously await y'alls = response. =20
 
Maybe I should just go ride my = loud=20 motorcycle to think thinks through. <g>
 
Thanks again.
 
All the best,
 
Chris Barber
Houston
 
 

------=_NextPart_000_3002_01C8CCD7.83CD8BA0--