X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from fed1rmmtao106.cox.net ([68.230.241.40] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.3) with ESMTP id 2925789 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 16 May 2008 22:38:07 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=68.230.241.40; envelope-from=rv-4mike@cox.net Received: from fed1rmimpo02.cox.net ([70.169.32.72]) by fed1rmmtao106.cox.net (InterMail vM.7.08.02.01 201-2186-121-102-20070209) with ESMTP id <20080517023729.CYNO28729.fed1rmmtao106.cox.net@fed1rmimpo02.cox.net> for ; Fri, 16 May 2008 22:37:29 -0400 Received: from wills ([68.105.85.56]) by fed1rmimpo02.cox.net with bizsmtp id SSdT1Z0081CvZmk04SdVMC; Fri, 16 May 2008 22:37:29 -0400 Message-ID: <005701c8b7c6$f252cf20$38556944@wills> From: "Mike Wills" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Drawing Programs Date: Fri, 16 May 2008 19:37:27 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0054_01C8B78C.45B148D0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0054_01C8B78C.45B148D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Monty, Cost aside, can you go a little into how user friendly this software = is? For comparison I've messed around a little with Pro E and = Solidworks. More with Pro E. I find Pro E excruciating to work with, = Solidworks considerably better. Probably one of those things where once = you use it some it gets way better. I just dont have the spare time to = invest a week to learn how to create a simple part. For the crippled post 30 day version can you still generate useful = output files? Or is this one of those deals where you can model a part = but not save, close, and reopen the model? The crippled demo version I = had of Solidworks wouldnt allow you to actually save anything. Mike Wills RV-4 N144MW=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: M Roberts=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Friday, May 16, 2008 6:58 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Drawing Programs Monty, Are you SURE you're not selling this J Well, lets just say that after 10+ years of being = used.......well......roughly by many other cad vendors, such that some = of Ernest's bio engineered Vaseline would have been a much welcome = relief....... It's nice to have a company in the cad world that doesn't bend you = over every chance they get. Catia...forget it. Think Reverse Polish Sadomasochism with high = voltage. Alias- If you wear a black turtle neck, and little round purple = glasses and think a milling machine should look like a butterfly, plus = you don't mind spending multiple tens of thousands of dollars for = something Rhino can do.....this is for you. Unigraphics- $24K just to get started.....$3-5K/ year maintenance. = $75K for a full license. Used to be really good...now not so much. ProE...not much better Autoscam...an expensive joke..... The rainbow water vac of the cad = world. Autocad sales people are right in there with Amway.. (BobCad is = about the same) I expect that bearded guy who screams a lot to start = selling these late at night on cable. Solidworks....$4-6K..... better but still 1K maintenance once a year = ......a mean drunk that is nice when sober. Solid Edge...more of the same Plus these @#$$@## change everything around every year....they don't = actually make improvements mind you , they just move everything around = so you can't get anything done.....so they can sell you training......I = have another word for it, but that's what they call it. The good guys: Rhino-Excellent surfacing package for a reasonable price....solids = suck however and non-parametric. for $1K reasonable upgrades about every = 2 years that actually improve the software. Alibre-Excellent solid modeling package with assemblies and all the = trimmings. Every upgrade is actually an upgrade and reasonably priced. I have a secret wish that everybody in the experimental aviation world = learn to use this stuff so we can share parts and data...Think print a = plane open source with everybody making continuous improvements and = upgrades. Plus payback is a bitch. I hope all the aforementioned thieves go the = way of the Sun Workstation. I've paid them enough to buy a very nice = Bavarian auto over the years and gotten nothing but grief. As to the learning Curve. I can't give a realistic estimate, because = I've been doing this so long with so many different packages that I can = pick up anything in a couple hours (except for BobCad which is so = horribly clunky I gave up after 10 min). There are a lot of low time = people who have indicated that they found Alibre much easier to pick up = than some of the other packages. I could possibly be persuaded to give a workshop on this stuff at = Tracy's. There are some logistics involved that could be problematic. = Like anybody who want's to participate has to bring a laptop with the = software already installed and know how to use a mouse. Monty ------=_NextPart_000_0054_01C8B78C.45B148D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Monty,
 
 Cost aside, can you go a = little into how=20 user friendly this software is? For comparison I've messed around a = little with=20 Pro E and Solidworks. More with Pro E. I find Pro E excruciating to = work=20 with, Solidworks considerably better. Probably one of those things where = once=20 you use it some it gets way better. I just dont have the spare time to = invest a=20 week to learn how to create a simple part.
 
 For the crippled post 30 day = version can=20 you still generate useful output files? Or is this one of those deals = where you=20 can model a part but not save, close, and reopen the model? The = crippled=20 demo version I had of Solidworks wouldnt allow you to actually save=20 anything.
 
Mike Wills
 
RV-4 N144MW 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 M=20 Roberts
Sent: Friday, May 16, 2008 6:58 = PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Drawing=20 Programs

 
Monty, Are you SURE you=92re not selling this=20 J
 
Well, lets just say that after = 10+ years of=20 being used.......well......roughly by many other cad vendors, such = that some=20 of Ernest's bio engineered Vaseline would have been a much welcome=20 relief.......
 
It's nice to have a company in = the cad=20 world that doesn't bend you over every chance they = get.
 
Catia...forget it. Think = Reverse Polish=20 Sadomasochism with high voltage.
 
Alias- If you wear a black = turtle neck, and=20 little round purple glasses and think a milling machine should look = like a=20 butterfly, plus you don't mind spending multiple  tens of = thousands of=20 dollars for something Rhino can do.....this is for = you.
 
Unigraphics- $24K just to get=20 started.....$3-5K/ year maintenance. $75K for a full license. Used to = be=20 really good...now not so much.
 
ProE...not much = better
 
Autoscam...an expensive = joke..... The=20 rainbow water vac of the cad world. Autocad sales people are right in = there=20 with Amway.. (BobCad is about the same) I expect that bearded guy who = screams=20 a lot to start selling these late at night on = cable.
 
Solidworks....$4-6K..... better = but still=20 1K maintenance once a year ......a mean drunk that is nice when=20 sober.
 
Solid Edge...more of the=20 same
 
Plus these @#$$@## change = everything around=20 every year....they don't actually make improvements mind you , they = just move=20 everything around so you can't get anything done.....so they can sell = you=20 training......I have another word for it, but that's what they call=20 it.
 
 
 
The good = guys:
 
Rhino-Excellent surfacing = package for a=20 reasonable price....solids suck however and non-parametric. for $1K = reasonable=20 upgrades about every 2 years that actually improve the=20 software.
 
Alibre-Excellent solid modeling = package=20 with assemblies and all the trimmings. Every upgrade is actually an = upgrade=20 and reasonably priced.
 
I have a secret wish that = everybody in the=20 experimental aviation world learn to use this stuff so we can share = parts and=20 data...Think print a plane open source with everybody making = continuous=20 improvements and upgrades.
 
Plus payback is a bitch. I hope = all the=20 aforementioned thieves go the way of the Sun Workstation. I've = paid them=20 enough to buy a very nice Bavarian auto over the years and gotten = nothing but=20 grief.
 
As to the learning Curve. I = can't give a=20 realistic estimate, because I've been doing this so long with so many=20 different packages that I can pick up anything in a couple hours = (except for=20 BobCad which is so horribly clunky I gave up after 10 min). There are = a lot of=20 low time people who have indicated that they found Alibre much easier = to pick=20 up than some of the other packages.
 
I could possibly be persuaded = to give a=20 workshop on this stuff at Tracy's. There are some logistics involved = that=20 could be problematic. Like anybody who want's to participate has to = bring a=20 laptop with the software already installed and know how to use a=20 mouse.
 
Monty
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